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I just saw an MCSD at work ask everyone by email what nunit is.

Which is scarier, that an MCSD doesn't know what nunit is, or that an MCSD can't fucking google?

silent screaming
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I think it's scarier that you have to come here to put him/her down.

linux admin
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

It's got nothing to do with being an MCSD.  MCSD exams don't include anything on nUnit.  I'm an MCAD at the moment (have not yet taken the 70-300 exam), but so far, no mention of even unit testing in any of the exams I've come across.  MCSD simply means you can pass 5 exams on microsoft technology and know the MSF methodology.  That's it.  End of story. 

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I think it's *always* scary when *any* developer "can't fucking google".


Wednesday, July 21, 2004

You have a lot of anger you need to let out. I suspect it's more an interpersonal issue with the person in question (the reference to an MCSD seems somewhat petty in this case).

In any case-

-Not everyone pursues test driven development, and of those that do, nunit is one of a large number of choices for fulfilling the requirements of TDD. Awareness of it is hardly a prerequisite.

-I guarantee there's a lot of things that a lot of other people know that you are blissfully ignorant about. I'm well aware of the fact that there's a tremendous amount that I don't know.

-Perhaps (s)he was openly communicating, knowing that a non-critical team can talk to each other and ask "stupid questions" without being criticized for it. They think this way, of course, because the worst team environment possible is one where everyone is fearfully quiet lest they say something that'll get the ravenous wolves tearing at their flesh. I've worked with the ravenous wolves before, and in general it was the impotent who'd search out any ounce of triviality to attack more successful peers.

Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I take back the "ravenous wolves" metaphor. "Ravenous mosquitoes" is more appropriate.

Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

maybe they meant to float the question to see if anyone included in the e-mail had experience with nunit- to see if it were used widely in your organization, worth learning, or if anyone had valuable examples or tutorials.

sometimes just 5 minutes talking to someone with mad experience on something is better than rtfm'ing for a few hours, then realizing the tool isn't exactly what you were looking for...

if thats not the case, then yeah thats kinda bad.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

Last time I checked the numbers, there were around 30K MCSDs. As opposed to about 500k MCSEs. Very few developers bother taking any of the exams. I have never met another MCSD in person. In my experience, most developers have some horror of being tested on knowledge.

No. There is no *question* about nUnit, or unit testing on any of the MS exams. One could be polite and point them at google, or yahoo, or But that would be me.

Your milage may vary. Batteries not included. etc.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

my nUnit is bigger than yours.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

Size matters not.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I'm an MCSD -- old school. Haven't caught up with the newer .Net exams yet.

I use NUnit extensively. What has this got to do with my MCSD? Absolutely nothing.

The MCSD exams test knowledge and skills with *Microsoft* development tools. The last time I looked, Microsoft had not acquired the NUnit rights and had not branded it MS NUnit.Net. It's a third party tool, *not* written/developed by MS, *not* used by MS, *not* sold by MS and *not* supported by MS.

An MCSD is certified and tested by Microsoft, on *Microsoft* tools and technologies. When, exactly, did NUnit become a MS tool?

Why would you expect some J. Random MCSD to have knowledge of it?

Some shops don't do formal unit testing. The Q/A and Testers might do this. Some shops do unit testing, but use other third party tools, or in-house tools. Some shops do no testing at all. So what. It's not your problem.

Are you a better developer because you know of and/or use NUnit. No. I'd argue it increases the probability that you might be better, but I doubt it.

As for the google thing -- it's quite common for me to ask around the office for knowledge/opinions prior to embarking on hours of on-line research. I trust the opinions of those in my shop far more than the opinions of

Grow up. Please.

Sgt. Sausage
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

What a moron.  Fancy asking someone to explain something he doesn't know, thus revealing his ignorance.  He should have kept his mouth shut and pretended like everyone else.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I can sense the red mist rising.

All I can say is that if he is studying for an MSCD in .Net languages then he's either only just started dabbling in .Net development or he's completely ignorant about any of the xUnit testing suites.

It's my guess is the guy has a VB6 background.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

That's nothing.

The group that I work with - minimum experience level 5 years - didn't eve *know* what Unit Testing was...

or Nunit or Eclipse or UML or modelling or XP or....  well, I don't have time to list it all.

And our newest person - self-claimed Java expert - didn't know any of those things and even asked me what a "jar file" was.

Ye Gods man.

If I had my way, I would can two of our people tomorrow and put some actual coding standards in place.  Arg.

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

"And our newest person - self-claimed Java expert - didn't know any of those things and even asked me what a "jar file" was."

Boy do I feel sorry for you having to work with a Java "expert" as clueless as that!

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

Dennis:  Yes I have a lot of anger to let out, but don't worry I'm going girl scout-kicking after work.  Sausage & Giorgio:  I expect an MCSD who has been developing MS apps for a couple of years to not be woefully ignorant of the state of the art, to visit a friggin industry web site or blog every now and then.  I guess that makes me a Mean Man (TM).  Dennis again:  Unit testing != TDD.  Multiple mentioners of "hours of searching":  google for nunit.  The first sentence you get on the first page is "What is nunit? blah blah blah".  There is a reason for the F in RTFM.  It has to do with intellectual responsibility, not wasting other people's time until you need to, being a grown up who earns a grow up's salary, stuff like that.  Dennis again again:  I'll be sure to suck the blood out of the girl scouts once they're on the ground, so as to fit your mosquito metaphor.

silent I'm-okay-you're-okay screaming
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

nunit (or rather xunit) have largely come to the forefront in the cases of partial or whole adoption of TDD methodologies. Of course it works great for unit tests as well, but a lot of people had unit test techniques before automated testing tools.

Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I have no idea what happened, whether that McSD sent it to a mailing list or multiple recipients in private mail. But today I'll empathize with any malcontent.

I've spent a couple days churning out Python in the normal way -- coding directly in it. Paradoxical language -- the programmer is expected to automate everything but his own tasks. Wrote hundreds of lines in a couple days, very polished, docs, rigorously tested, idiomatic, it was favorably reviewed in exceeding detail by someone with years of experience. And now I need a long break. Because it's just not programming if you don't automate your own tasks.

I'm not wasting my one and only youth on this.

So anyway, just ranting, since this seems really a place to vent rather than say anything constructive. I don't need to do this Python thing, just  getting it off my chest.

Tayssir John Gabbour
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

So what is nunit, anyway?

Wednesday, July 21, 2004

This is weird, we are over a week away from the next full moon and yet the levels of anger and derangement here are higher than I ever remember them. Is it something to do with the Microsoft dividends? Is it everyone without Microsoft shares wishing they had bought some, and everyone with them wishing they had as many as Bill?

Harvey Pengwyn
Thursday, July 22, 2004

No, the civility/trolltality ratio seems within the normal range to me - there just hasn't been a good MCSwhatever certification bashing lately, so people just have more energy for it.

Greg Hurlman
Thursday, July 22, 2004

for the trolls (and/or clueless) :

Thursday, July 22, 2004

It seems like only the very new and very old to programming do not depend on their friendly neighborhood online community to help them. In .NET development, those who are not familiar with nUnit, FxCop, or Application Blocks are the type to have 10 tech books opened across their desk, fully highlighted and bookmarked for reference.

Thursday, July 22, 2004

My wife asked me what I wanted her to do to my wang, so I replied "Come on beyotch, don't you know how to use google".

Thursday, July 22, 2004

So you put what you want your wife to do w/your wang on a Web site ?

Thursday, July 22, 2004

No, but clearly there is no value in my personal opinion or experience in such things. Clearly nothing can be learned by talking to your spouse, friends, neighbours, teammates if you can just check google.

What a bunch of anti-social nitwits. If any of the "just check google!" morons were on my team I'd fire their ass the first time they got uppity with a communicative coworker. Everything is on google, but that doesn't mean it's personally (or organizationally, or team-wise) relevant, or even that it's right.

Thursday, July 22, 2004

I agree...but the MCSD referred to wasn't talking to people, but e-mailing them.  E-mailing people means they have to take the time to reply; I'd rather the guy came up in person to ask me what nUnit is.

(Not that _I_ would know the answer without Googling.)

Thursday, July 22, 2004

> What a bunch of anti-social nitwits. If any of the "just
> check google!" morons were on my team I'd fire their ass
> the first time they got uppity with a communicative
> coworker

I used to have two co-workers who would *constantly* pester me for answers they could have found on the web.  Don't get me wrong, they weren't bad or stupid and my favorite professional experience is still having worked with them.  Mostly it was just when they were venturing into new territory and clearly needed some hand-holding.

But the end result was that I wasn't getting anything done because I was playing Human Reference Library.  Sometimes you just have to train people to be more confident and think more independently while still encouraging communication. 

I learned two ways to cope with it.  For small stuff, I'd just sit them in front of their computer while I typed and found the answer for them (even if I knew it already).  Eventually, being smart people, they realized they could do the same thing without me, and that I wasn't some mystical fountain of knowledge acquired from unknown sources.

The second, for when a concept was more difficult to grasp, was to act as a tutor and find a piece of code that did something similar to what they were trying to accomplish, and walk them through it so that they could apply the concepts elsewhere.

Thursday, July 22, 2004

I agree, it's not that they can't google, it's that they can't be bothered.  It's a dominance game that lots of people play.  Ignore them and they'll go away looking for easier targets.  (Unless one of them is giving you your review - I still haven't figured out how to fix that one.)

Unfocused Focused
Thursday, July 22, 2004


I was just reading through some of these posts, and I wanted to give a manager's perspective. My attitude has always been that you can teach people new tools and skills (within reason), but you can't teach people to get along with others. So, yeah, maybe that was a really stupid thing to email to everyone, but if I was their manager and knew about both the email and the response from "silent screaming", I would think a lot less of "not-so-silent" for being so sanctimonious about his "vast knowledge" *snicker snicker* than the MCSD who asked about something he could have easily looked up. If "wish-he-were-more-silent" were to complain to me about this behavior, I would only think he was a whining know-it-all who has a superiority problem. I wouldn't even bat an eye about the MCSD not knowing about nunit. He or she can learn about nunit a lot easier than "makes-everyone-else-scream" can learn how to treat his co-workers.

Just another opinion
Tuesday, August 10, 2004

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