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Is it worth building my own?
So my personal dev box I think is finally dead. Mostly, there was always a cooling issue (i.e. I was too cheap to buy case fans, oops!) and the recent warm weather on the east coast has caused about everything to get fried (processor and graphics card).
So starting from scratch I can build something slightly better than what I can buy from Dell at the same price point. I'm inclined to build my own to facilitate future upgrades, but at the price of computers now adays, should I not even bother upgrading?
Is it better to buy the cheapest thing Dell has and load it up on memory, and perform this task periodically, or to make one larger purchase and stretch out its life as long as possible?
Elephant
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
If you only care about price, then Dell or one of the other major vendors is defintely the way to go. There's no way you can build your own for $499.
However, if you care about future expansion or little things like ......oh, say .....QUALITY ......then building your own is the only way to go.
I recently went to Dell's website and tried to configure a computer the same as the one I built myself. When I was done, the Dell was almost $400 more -- and it was still inferior because they don't offer some components of comparable quality.
I've seen the inside of several Dells, Compaqs and Gateways and was quite amazed. Every component is the cheapest (as in quality) that you can possibly get. But then, that's why they can sell them for $499 and make a profit.
Dell, Gateway, et al are stictly for suckers.
My Cousin Vinniwashtharam
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
(On a side note, if I build my own, Intel 2.8GHz P4 Prescott -or- AMD 64 3200+? . . . They are about the same price)
Elephant
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I always buy Dell (for several years now) as I think that the time I would spend researching, buying, assembling and testing all the components is better spent earning money for my business.
Unless you *really* enjoy building your own, and really know what you're doing, I can't see the point.
My old Dell laptop developed an intermitant fault recently, so I just called out the engineers and they came and replaced everything. It only had a few months left on the 3 year on-site maintenance.
The point is, if you buy the bits and build it yourself, you have to bite the cost (in lost time & productivity) and then what happens in two years time when it dies? With Dell you just call them and they come and fix it.
I guess its a case of "each to their own", but I prefer to stick to my areas of expertise, like spotting missing links on g-descenders ;-)
Steve Jones (UK)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"There's no way you can build your own for $499"
That's just stupid. I can build a box for less than $499 in parts. Will it be a smokin' fast box? Hell no. You'll get about what Dell gives you for that price: the cheapest crap they can find. Cheap mobo, cheap power supply, close-out parts.
Bear in mind, if you're an upgrader, that Dell uses proprietary motherboards and cases, so you can't upgrade those when you buy a Dell.
Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
If you don't keep up with hardware trends trying to learn about this stuff can be incredibly time consuming, particularly if you're at all concerned about money and/or value.
What I've done in the past is get certain commodity pieces from different suppliers (video card, sound card, hard drive, case) and the motherboard + CPU + memory as a bundle, typically after they've been tested together (burned in) for a couple days. Such places normally aren't on the bleeding edge with overclocking and such, but stability is far more important to me -- and honestly, modern desktops are faster than I generally need.
I've had good experienes with J & N Computing ( http://www.jncs.com/ ) several times over the last five years or so. (No, I don't work for them.)
Chris Winters
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
For my own personal box I've always built my own (it isn't a badge of honour, though - putting together a PC is very low end monkey work), and the reason is that I enjoy it, coupled with the fact that any pre-packaged machine virtually always represented significant compromises - loud or slow hard drives, outdated video cards, subpar onboard sound, obsolete motherboard (perhaps not support USB2 or Firewire, or whatever), etc. When you build it yourself you get to pick the best in each area, often at little or no price premium, rather than relying upon vendor agreements at a big vendor.
Of course you should only consider this if you enjoy the process - if it's a chore then just call up Dell.
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
My suggestion: Buy it from Dell.
Really, it all comes down to your time & how valuable it is to you. Maybe you can build a great box for $100 less then Dell's but it will take you 5 hours to gather the parts, assemble and test them and install the OS. Is a $100 savings worth 5 hours of your time? Speaking for myself, no way.
I suppose if you have a "love" for assembling computers then go for it, snap things together until heart's content, but for my money it's easier to call 800-WWW-DELL and let them handle the rest.
Shane Harter
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I always "build" but I certainly don't put it together myself! There is a local computer shop that I purchase from -- they have a nice website where I can look over all the components and an form for getting a quote. Competition is fierce and it's easy to comparison shop -- I know I'm getting a good price on everything.
As for research, I just look at the components in my price range and google the ones I'm interested in. It's not that hard. I'm not a hardware person (hence why I don't put it together myself). But I don't want a cheap parts in my computer.
I submit a quote, pay the deposit, and they put it together. 2-3 days later I go and pick it up. Every component is exactly what I picked out.
Almost Anonymous
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Speaking as a former PC repair guy, if your Dell goes kaput in the morning, call it in and _the next day_ a guy will be there with a new motherboard/hard drive/whatever. This was true for Dell's home customers, not only corporate ones. I didn't see this with any other company we serviced, and we serviced quite a few.
Of course if you build your own, you'll have to handle all that stuff yourself. It's a question of how valuable your time is, I suppose.
Kyralessa
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I'd just as soon "upgrade" my toaster as my home computer. It's an email and web device that cost $800 from Dell. In a couple of years I'll buy another one that's 5x faster and has the latest OS on it for another $800. Who cares if it's made from cheap parts if it only needs to last for three or four years.
MilesArcher
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"It's a question of how valuable your time is, I suppose."
Myself or my wife cooks our own dinner most nights, despite the fact that we could pay someone significantly less. Hell, we could just buy McDonalds every night and proclaim "What does it matter? I'll have another dinner tomorrow!"
The "what is your time worth" comment is generally inane, and is usually a loaded bit of pomposity where the speaker, in an odd bit of defensiveness, is implying that their time is worth more than people who do the activity they disdain (it usually appears whenever someone's manhood is threatened). Unless every waking minute is filled with billable hours, or you're directly paying someone to do the activity, and unless you operate effectively in a single stream of thought never taking a moment downtime to do something a little different, the time comment is a pretty vapid one. Especially telling is the fact that we're discussing this menial point on a forum, spending minutes of our oh-so-valuable time, and we do it day after day. I guess it must be all of our personal assistants that are posting these comments.
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I just put a 2 GW element in my toaster. I can toast a whole loaf of bread in ~10ns.
Rob VH
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"It's an email and web device that cost $800 from Dell."
The OP was asking about a development box, not an email and web device.
Having said that, my home PCs are web, email, video editing (extremely demanding), soundstation, development, staging, multi-thousand 6MP photograph repository (have a baby with a digital camera and they really add up), and last but not least gaming station.
Dennis Fobes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
My personal time definitely has a value, and a rather high one, judging by the amount I'm willing to expend on services.
For example, when I was a happy-go-lucky college student I did lots of maintenance on my own car. I now have significantly less "Rob-time" than I did back then, and I'm happy to pay mega-dollars to somebody else to change my oil, rotate my tires, etc., ad nauseum.
Same goes with buying a PC. Are the parts inside my HP crappy? Maybe they are. But I'm blissfully unaware. The thing seems capable enough. If it breaks, I'll discard (I mean, recycle...) it and buy a new one. I have neither the time nor the inclination to know the difference between Socket 7 and Socket XYZ motherboards, so I guess I'll have to "settle" for name-branded.
I hold no disdain for the people that I hire to do a service for me. It's simply more optimal to pay them to do something that I don't already know how to do, or can't do well, or just generally dislike doing. No pomposity here.
Rob VH
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Rob,
You seem to equate _purchasing_ a computer with _maintainence_ on a car. I equate _purchasing_ a computer with _purchasing_ a car.
I spent $1500 (CND) on my PC -- and that's just the box. I kept my monitor, keyboard, mouse, etc. I could have easily spent twice as much -- I got the best I could (and the most appropriate for me) for the money I had to spend.
I really enjoy my computer. I also really enjoy my car. Of course, I could have spent half as much and got a crappy Kia. But I doubt I would enjoy it as much.
(And actually picking out the parts in my computer and doing the online research was FUN. Maybe I have a strange sense of fun...)
Almost Anonymous
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I used to build my own machines. It was great fun for the first two, and I wouldn't trade the knowledge for anything. However, I bought my last computer from Dell and I'll never go back again. The computer is fast & reliable. It does everything I need it to do and I paid a reasonable price for it.
I might have saved $100 bucks by building it myself, but I wanted the convenience of just pluging it in. Heck, I didn't even tear down the operating system and start over like I used to.
If you're going to build it yourself, do it becasue you WANT to, not for some perceived emperical benefit.
Brian
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"I now have significantly less "Rob-time" than I did back then, and I'm happy to pay mega-dollars to somebody else to change my oil, rotate my tires, etc., ad nauseum."
That's market efficiency at work, and it's the foundation of our robust economy - we let other people do stuff that we don't have the time, skills, resources, or most importantly inclination to do, and where they're willing to give up some control over the process to get results. Makes sense.
"I have neither the time nor the inclination to know the difference between Socket 7 and Socket XYZ motherboards, so I guess I'll have to "settle" for name-branded."
So you're booked for billable hours 16/7, fitting in a quick 8 hour sleep? You have no leisure time? You have no mental downtime where you do something like, oh I don't know, post to a forum?
I've always been a cynic about people's transparent attempts at elevating themselves above their fellow human beings, and one of the most common is the "I don't have time/my time is too valuable" technique - the number of times I've watched people deride the activities that someone else enjoys with the time excuse. They themselves might spend hours reading Maxim, at the gym, at the cottage, fishing and drinking beer and watching football games, but they "don't have the time" to build a PC (it would be too personally effacing, apparently, to settle upon "I don't have the motivation or interesting in building my own PC"). Just a peeve there because this little technique is so pervasive.
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Although completely irrelevent to my original post, I agree with Dennis.
The only time I ever think along these lines is when I spend my free time waiting for someone to perform a service. i.e. recently I was waiting for a matress to be delivered. Waited for the entire day (was supposed to arrive at 9 am) and it never showed. Calls to the store proved useless as they didn't know where the driver was. Since it never showed, they determined that they would provide me a $25 discount. Somehow I think a day wasted is worth more than $25. . . at minimum $25/hour. In cases such as this, my time is valuable to the extent that I was prevented from either working or persuing some activity with my free time.
Elephant
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Almost Anonymous -
you equate building your own computer with buying a "crappy kia"... you should really be comparing building your own computer to building your own car.
Dennis -
Is it really so terrible for someone to not desire to build their own computer, because it takes a not insignificant amount of time? Some people really are too busy to build a high-end dev computer. I have a full-time job (i have occassional down time where i can post to JOS, but not enough all at once to where I can build a computer), part-time side work, and CS classes, not to mention family concerns and all that. I haven't noticed so much pomposity in people's posts in this thread - maybe it exists in other places. But lighten up. Just because I say, "I'm too busy to build a computer" doesn't mean I think building a computer is beneath me. Tell me I have time-management issues, and you might have a valid point. But don't get all vitriolic on people just because they'd rather get a Dell.
nathan
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"Is it really so terrible for someone to not desire to build their own computer, because it takes a not insignificant amount of time?"
It's not terrible whatsoever and you're setting up a strawman as I quite clearly have taken no such tact.
What I have said, however, is that it's questionable when people choose to say "my time is too valuable/I don't have the time" regarding an activity rather than saying "I don't have the inclination or interest to do that / I choose not to spend any time on that". The former has the clear corollary that people who do pursue the activity in question have time that isn't as valuable, and clearly aren't as important as they have this excess of time. I happen to put together my own PC, carefully selecting the parts after combing hardware sites, because that was an interest for me to serve as a nice short term alternative to development. Other people choose to call up Dell. Live and let live and either has benefits and detriments. The problem is when the classic "Maybe some people have the time to XYZ, but not me...blah blah blah" appears, as it invariably will.
I made it clear, as a sidenote, that this is peeve that I was just getting off my chest as this is a prevalent social issue - many people see someone doing something that in some way threatens them (for whatever absurd and unjustified reason), whether it's working on their car, carefully working on their garden, jogging, going to the gym, or whatever, and they feel some absurd need to inform all involved that they don't have the time/their time is too valuable, or the classic "Boy, I wish I had the time to do that".
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"you equate building your own computer with buying a "crappy kia"... you should really be comparing building your own computer to building your own car."
As I mentioned above.. I don't actually build the computer - I pick the parts. Computers and cars are different because all computers are made from parts built by other companies. So I either pay Dell to pick the parts and build it or I pick the parts and pay someone else to build it. I get exactly what I want (and no more) and no crappy parts.
Hell, I could built myself because, unlike building a car, computers are meant to be put together by lay people. It's no different from putting together a BBQ or furniture from Ikea.
Almost Anonymous
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Building a computer from off-the-shelf components is not nearly as simple as clicking together a bunch of legos and then expecting them to work.
With each computer I've built from scratch (3 of them now), I've encountered multiple unpredictable hardward incompatibilities (my optical USB mouse doesn't work in the first port of my USB card, but it does work in the second port, for no good reason).
It generally takes me two or three weeks (tinkering an hour or two each day) to get most of the correct drivers installed, and to get all of my hardware playing nice together. And I've never gotten 100% of the wrinkles ironed out of any of these systems. After spending dozens of hours googling for BIOS patches and driver updates, there are usually at least a few minor issues that I just learn to live with.
Frankly, I'd like to dispense with all of that work. It's not that I value my time too highly, it's just that I don't have a multi-million dollar QA department to test out possible system configurations in order to find the most stable hardware combinations.
My development computer at work is a dell, and I've never had any of these weird driver issues there. All of the driver configuration problems have already been addressed by dell. Thank god.
The next machine that I buy for myself will be a Dell or a Gateway or some other major brand name.
And the reason I don't work on my own cars is not because I'm too good for it. Quite the contrary, I lack the expertise to do really top-notch automotive work. So I entrust those tasks to someone else.
Benji Smith
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
BTW.. to answer the original posters question!
"I'm inclined to build my own to facilitate future upgrades, but at the price of computers now adays, should I not even bother upgrading?"
It's pretty uncommon to do significant upgrades to a computer. If you need a new processor than you typically need a new motherboard and new RAM. That's most of the computer right there. Furthermore, typically you'd also want a new video card and a faster/bigger HD.
Upgrades of a significant variety don't exist -- you pretty much always have to buy new.
So the question is -- How long do you want to go between major upgrades? The computer I just replaced was a 400mhz AMD w/ 27GB HD and 384MB of RAM -- it was OLD. I got a lot of use out of it. I purchased my latest machine with the idea that I wanted to keep it for a while.
I think we're in a unique point in the evolution of computers -- their isn't nearly the pressure to have the latest and greatest. My 400mhz was still very useful for development -- it was just annoying.
Almost Anonymous
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"With each computer I've built from scratch (3 of them now), I've encountered multiple unpredictable hardward incompatibilities"
Garbage in, Garbage out. If you purchase quality parts, then you won't have problems (otherwise, they won't be "quality parts"!). The company I purchase from runs a battery of tests before they give the box to me.
I have had problems in the past with incompatibilies with my older hardware. My old ATI rage 128 video card was evil -- I spent alot of time messing with it. But it was cheap!
"my optical USB mouse doesn't work in the first port of my USB card, but it does work in the second port, for no good reason"
Sounds like bad hardware too me. I would have taken it back.
Almost Anonymous
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Dennis, I'm not ripping on you for your interest in building a PC yourself. I'm not trying to elevate my opinion of myself. When I say "I don't have time" for something, that means after I do all the other things on my list that are of higher priority, I don't have time left to learn about different models of motherboard. Note: Some of those higher priority things may be other leisure activities. Don't be so literal. As you have pointed out repeatedly, I have time to post here. As it happens, I'd rather bicker with you than educate myself on the minutiae of motherboards :)
Also note: I have built my own PC in the past. Actually, I spec'd out all the parts and let a local shop assemble them. In my opinion it was a waste of time. Perhaps I'm an inept PC designer, but it did not perform at a higher level than any old piece of crap that I could have bought at Best Buy. Furthermore, by the time I was ready to spend $$$ on a personal PC again, it was so obsolete that the economics favored buying a whole new PC.
In summation Mr. Original Poster: Buy a Dell/Apple/HP. You will probably never upgrade anything on your PC except possibly the RAM.
Rob VH
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I've built a lot of computers in my day. My current thought. Not really worth it.
I am currently surrounded by two Dell monitors and laptop, and I couldn't be happier. Come on, building a computer from components isn't rocket science. It is simply a pain the butt. I'm done with motherboards that don't work, fried CPUs and loud power supplies. Dell sells a shit load of computers. Reliability matters to them. If it isn't reliable it detracts significantly from their bottom line. If a vendor sells Dell an entire lot of bad hard drives, there will be hell to pay. If a vendor sells Christopher Baus a bad hard drive, I don't think the CEO of the company will be involved.
I recently bought a server from eracks.com, and ended up thinking, "what the hell am I doing, I should have just got a dell dude."
Dell's service rules. If you don't believe me, try dealing with Cisco sometime. Unless you have bazillion dollar account with them, your lucky if they'll even answer the phone.
I had a problem with my laptop. (Ok I dropped it on the floor and the pc card got jammed in it and it wouldn't boot). We have a return to depot contract on laptops with them, and I returned and got the laptop back in under a week good as new!
christopher baus (www.baus.net)
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
I've upgraded my systems. Some things, like a good sound card, ethernet card, etc. are going to last for several times the life of a motherboard, something which I have taken advantage of.
My big argument for building my own comes from when I picked up a Sony Viao laptop (where you really have to pick one up off the shelf). In order to not have it drive me up the wall with various crap that I didn't need, I ended up reinstalling the OS from scratch anyway. So I'd estimate that the extra amount of time spent on building a computer was generally pretty small compared to the amount of time overall making said system comfortable.
Flamebait Sr.
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Profuse apologies for poor wording. How about:
"It's a question of what you'd rather spend your time doing, I guess."
Sheesh.
But it's worth considering that the local PC parts store might not have long hours, and if you have to go part shopping during the day, it might well take up time you'd rather spend doing something else.
I mean, sure, with Dell you have to call tech support and wait on hold, but at least then you can play Freecell.
Kyralessa
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Drives are easy to add/upgrade, as well as other peripheral devices. You can skimp on these now and upgrade them over the next few years.
Next-easiest to upgrade is memory. Buy a 1GB stick now and you're probably set for a couple years, unless you do silly things like run several copies of a J2EE container simultaneously :).
Next-easiest to upgrade is the CPU.
Upgrading the motherboard is misery. Driver hell, and if any of your devices happens to not like the new motherboard, you're stuck between trying a different motherboard or swapping the incompatible device out for one that does work.
So, my suggestion is to get the bad-assest (yes that *is* a word!!) motherboard you can afford (SATA, firewire, gigabit ethernet, etc.); then, the fastest CPU you can afford. Memory, drives and other peripherals as budget/desire permit -- you can upgrade these relatively easily later.
Should be working
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"The "what is your time worth" comment is generally inane"
No it's not. I had to clean the cylinder on our lawnmower (overachieving kids thought oil had to be topped off and put two quarts in). It ended up taking me about four hours. Or I could've taken it to a lawnmower repair shop which could probably have done it in half an hour for $x.
The same argument applies for most tasks where you can pay someone who does what is a rare task for you routinely - you are paying to save the large amount of time you would've spent doing it for them to apply their equipment and expertise to do it faster and save you the effort.
And to piggyback the "quality parts" argument in -
I built a dual-cpu system in 2000. Dual Intel P3 800's, Gigabyte MB, Crucial RAM, ATI video card, Creative Labs sound card. All top of the line components.
After ten days (!!!) of beating on it, Creative FINALLY admitted to someone (who immediately posted it on usenet) that despite what their documentation says, maybe their soundcards *don't* work in dual-CPU systems. One Turtle Beach card later the system finally worked.
Now if I had ordered that system, I never would've dealt with the problem - odds are they would've learned the lesson (despite what Creative said) long before I ordered a system. I would only order a dual CPU system from an integrator that obviously did it a lot, so I could trust that they would build a system with that kind of knowledge, and be able to fix it later.
Philo
Philo
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"No it's not. I had to clean the cylinder on our lawnmower (overachieving kids thought oil had to be topped off and put two quarts in). It ended up taking me about four hours. Or I could've taken it to a lawnmower repair shop which could probably have done it in half an hour for $x."
Yeah, we all get that. However to stick a lance in your argument, was that four hours that you would have otherwise billed? If not, then there is no loss (just because someone makes $50 an hour 9-5 Monday to Friday doesn't mean that it isn't financially beneficial to spend an hour, say mowing the lawn, on Saturday even though they could have paid a kid $10 to do it. In effect it is like earning an extra $10). If it _was_ billable hours, say it was Monday at 9 and you just had to have a fixed lawnmower by 5pm, then of course it makes sense. Indeed, in this industry we often need "distractions", so the premise of spec'ing out a PC is just one of those things that would likely fill time otherwise spent browsing websites or looking at the ceiling.
However I've gone down that path just to humour your argument, when really my point was moreso that some things (fixing a car, spec'ing/building a PC, cooking, doing gardening) interest and entertain people, and they sacrifice some time because they enjoy it EVEN THOUGH THEY COULD PAY A NOMINAL FEE AND HAVE IT DONE FOR THEM. For them to have to listen to some blowhard yapping about how they don't have time/their time is too valuable is painful, especially when said blowhard fills the majority of their waking hours with similarly frivilous trivality.
Getting back to the original poster, personally I don't think there is any savings at all buying and assembly components, or buying from a small local retailer with a specially spec'd computer (my experience has been that it's more expensive). However, the advantage is that big vendors like Dell are often pretty far behind the curve, taking time to integrate things like USB2, Firewire, good quality soundcards (most onboard sound is absolute trash), new motherboard technologies, etc. Despite the fawning talk about this being due to extensive QA, the reality is that it's the result of pure cost efficiency, and ensuring that they don't have inventory obsolescence competing with themselves. They do have so very usable systems for extremely effective prices, so if you're not that into it, or don't have the inclination to learn the material, then it's a great choice.
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"was that four hours that you would have otherwise billed?"
Uh, my time is valuable to me and my family whether I'm billing or not. As it turns out, it was a beautiful day and I had fun tinkering with the lawn mower. But sometimes things are just chores, and someone else can get them done
a) cheaper (in terms of time/tools/parts)
b) faster (in absolute terms)
c) more efficiently (less time spent on the task)
Philo
Philo
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
"As it turns out, it was a beautiful day and I had fun tinkering with the lawn mower"
You spent 4 hours fixing a lawnmower? Man, what a loser. My time is far too valuable for that.
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
In Soviet Russia, the horse beats you!
Elephant
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
must....get....last....word....
word
Dennis Forbes
Wednesday, May 12, 2004
Used to build, now I buy.
Building was never for getting it cheaper, but for choice and flexibility. Unless you truly enjoy the process of researching, choosing, buying, putting it together, and are prepared for a (small) chance of blowing it in part (mismatched components, or small building accidents), just go and buy a Dell.
Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, May 13, 2004
It is highly unlikely that you will be able to build a machine cheaper, even if you count your time as being worth nothing. In the UK this is true for both high and low end machines, though possibly it is not true for the latter in the US.
The reasons are obvious. Big companies get the discounts of parts that you don't.
There are still very good reasons for building your own machine though, and they are to do with learning how it all fits together. Apart from being worth knowing for the sake of it, this comes in very useful when troubleshooting. After all if your video card gets loose, you don't really want to have to pack the whole machine up and send it to Dell - and that's after the nightmare of calling their customer support.
Also you're not going to be afraid of upgrading, and like me you can happiliy look at your new DVD writer as it sits in its box by your computer for months on end, and say to yourself that you're going to put it in, no sweat, just after you've finished the next post.
Stephen Jones
Thursday, May 13, 2004
Philo,
You get the gardener to repair the lawnmower. That's what Hispanics are for :)
Stephen Jones
Thursday, May 13, 2004
LAST WORD! SALAD CREAM! HITLER! DELPHI!
Dennis Forbes
Thursday, May 13, 2004
> have a baby with a digital camera
I prefer women, they're softer in all the right places. Besides, what would such a baby look like?!
Monday, May 17, 2004
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