The Old Joel on Software Forum: Part 4 (of 5)

Professional Courtesy

Joel,

I only mentioned the "g" descender thing as a professional courtesy, in case you were not aware of it. I was also genuinely curious to see if I had mis-understood the situation and there was a reason why you hadn't linked it (apart from what I assumed was an oversight).

I have done the same with other websites (including the Microsoft home page), and people have done the same for me.

I must say that I appreciate these small items of useful feedback, and generally I can fix any issues straight away. Even Microsoft were happy to hear from me when there was an issue with their home page and IE4. Okay, so maybe only a small percentage of people would have been affected by that issue, but there is a right way to receive such news and a wrong way.

I feel that you acted in an unprofessional way, by first trying humour (which is fine, by the way), but then taking the time to write an article on "perfectionism" giving the impression that you had no time to fix this problem and that holding such perfectionist views must surely be bad.

How can the whole of the graphic working in the same way (i.e. clickable) be a "perfectionist" ideal ? Surely, this is common sense.

Later you spend even more time trying to justify the "design" by talking about clickable whitespace, etc. Also, why did so many of the posts get deleted from the site ? What did you not like about them ?

I realise that this is your site, so you're the big boss and all, but my impression was that you were trying to foster a community here, not show everyone what a big man you are, by ridiculing anyone who dares to question you.

Have you ever seen the Wizard of Oz, by the way, or The Emporor's New Clothes ? I suggest that they should both be on your book of the month list.

In closing, I feel let down by your recent behaviour. This used to be an interesting site, but it seems to have been left to whither on the vine. I do still like to check out what the other interesting contributors to the forum have to say, but I must say that you have gone down in my estimation.

Regards,

Steve Jones (UK).

Steve Jones (UK)
Sunday, April 25, 2004

Look on the bright side, Steve - he spent more time on that perfectionism article than it would've taken to fix the problem.

No, wait - that didn't come out right...

Philo

Philo
Sunday, April 25, 2004

I totally understand why you feel the need to discuss this thing, but I suspect this thread will disapear soon too.

Or maybe not. (Whats the cost/benefit ration of deleteing this post?)

Anyway, I agree that you were treated somewhat unfairly.

Eric Debois
Sunday, April 25, 2004

Dear Steve,
The comment was obviously a joke; Joel can be accused of many things but gratuitiously insulting people is not one of them.

Stephen Jones
Sunday, April 25, 2004

+++I feel that you acted in an unprofessional way, by first trying humour (which is fine, by the way), but then taking the time to write an article on "perfectionism" giving the impression+++

God God! are you STILL going on about this? Even AFTER Joel apologized? This is hilarious!

First of all, if humor is fine, then it can't be unprofessional, eh?

And writing an article that expresses an opinion that differs from yours is not unprofessional; it's an opinion that differs from your own.

But clearly you have unearthed a calling I believe you have not paid proper heed to till today! Can anyone question that it is your sacred mission to now go forth and traverse the web in search of orphan descenders crying out for their proper links? Who KNOWS how many "Gs," "Ys," and yes, even "Qs," are crying out for your aid and assistance! Do not leave them bereft , Captain G Spot! It is time to fly to the resuce!

While you are out on your mission, don't forget to E-mail home (but not too often).

rick

Rick Chapman
Sunday, April 25, 2004

You probably just caught Joel before his coffee on a bad hair day.

Although most here regard Joel as the Greek god of programming who always provides correct and brilliant answers, you can spot, if you look really hard, tiny hints of weaknesses that are typically only exhibited by ordinary human beings, like grumpiness, irritation, arrogance and bad jokes.

I would rate Joel as a half god at most.

But seriously, I sure don't hope everyone starts posting with silk gloves on, afraid of disturbing some guy's or girl's fragile soul. That would be boring as hell. Sure, Joel's post was bordering to a flame, but at least it wasn't boring. If you think your are being flamed, don't start whining, flame back and tell him he's an arrogant twit. Some arguments why would really be appreciated though. We all love a good fight. Why else do we love soccer, boxing, base ball, good guys vs bad guys movies? God forbid that this place becomes an all happy equal minded community. Ever tried to have a discussion with gents that all agree? "I think George should win American Idol". "I agree", "me too", "yes, Goerge rules". Boring huh.

Rick Chapman's posts, of which one beautiful example is shown above, are as subtile as a blunt ax. But I like it. It's his personality and it's what keeps this community alive. Moreover, such provoking posts invites return fire, which is when I pull out a beer and a bag of potato chips. Gee, I should really get a life.

Jan Derk
Sunday, April 25, 2004

Yea, Steve, if you tnink Joel's a jerk meet the real MCcoy. If Rick's ego was a Big Mac they'd be downsizing it to avoid lawsuits.

Stephen Jones
Sunday, April 25, 2004

I think Joel's eventual detailed reply to that thread made it clear why he made a joke about it at first--the truth was too boring for words.

Kyralessa
Sunday, April 25, 2004

I suppose we could always go back to talking about offshoring/outsourcing. Or perhaps we could tie offshoring into the current discussion by once again mentioning the cost savings & higher quality one would get by using a grammar foundry over in Eastern Europe or India.

Semi-Anonymous Coward
Sunday, April 25, 2004

To the Fog Creek intern who manages this forum: Please PLEASE don't delete this thread and further martyrize this litter of born-to-suffer, schoolmarmish, petulant depressives. Their moaning will only pop up elsewhere for weeks. Let's let it play out here.
To Steve Jones (UK), Ron McMahon, John Topley and My Cousin Vinniwashtharam: Suck it up.

Ethan Herdrick
Monday, April 26, 2004

Whoa, well I guess Steve is a little silly but suddenly th aholes are popping up like mushrooms at the chance of putting him down. I mean, come on!

ScriptKiddie
Monday, April 26, 2004

Ok, now it's my turn:

NAZIS.

Let's see if the myth is true and this ends the thread.

RP
Monday, April 26, 2004

RP, you can't deliberately invoke Godwin's Law:

http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html

Emperor Norton
Monday, April 26, 2004

Salad Cream

Tapiwa
Monday, April 26, 2004

Surly this is much ado about nothing - Steve commented on an idiosyncrasy of the site's usability (given that it's a usability site), and Joel took this as a chance to discussion perfection/good enough-ism. Fine.

The problem, of course, isn't that Joel took Steve to task, or even that he fairly went on to discussion good-enoughism. The problem was the joke* that Steve is some sort of flake for noticing or mentioning it in the first place. This is a classic technique for making up for deficiencies (for example see any discussion relating to privacy, where people too lazy to implement effective privacy, like certificates, joke about people calling them on it as being paranoids with aluminum foil hats).

* - Countless nasty things throughout time have been explained away after the fact as a "joke". Drop the bomb, and if it doesn't turn out in your benefit (i.e. if you don't get the allies you expected) excuse it as a, ha ha, joke -- then try to twist it that the offended just don't have a good sense of humor. It's always been a weak and transparent technique.

Dennis Forbes
Monday, April 26, 2004

Cheers Dennis.

Steve Jones (UK)
Monday, April 26, 2004

Well said Forbes.

Monday, April 26, 2004

How in the world did I misuse discussion twice. Ay karumba.

Dennis Forbes
Monday, April 26, 2004

It's not "Ay Karumba", it's "Ai caramba".

RP
Monday, April 26, 2004

" "It's not "Ay Karumba", it's "Ai caramba". "

Actually, it's "anal retentive petulance that forces me to argue over the silliest of things."

Oh?
Monday, April 26, 2004