The Old Joel on Software Forum: Part 4 (of 5)

Non-Speech Careers

Programming or development is being one of them, lots of people got attracted and stayed in.

How many of you now can see yourself as careers which requires speech? Ex Sales, Customer-Supprt etc..

Do programmers miss something in the world by not having the 'speech' in the world. ie.. sitting in the corner and hacking the box?

social programmer
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

only bad programmers sit in the corner and don't talk

apw
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

"only bad programmers sit in the corner and don't talk "

Only stupid people make blanket statements.

Wednesday, March 31, 2004

ah no...there much more to developement than just sitting there mute...

if thats what you do then thats why your product doesn't do what it should

apw
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

"if thats what you do then thats why your product doesn't do what it should "

OR.... maybe that's why we're a profitable ISV of 5 people. My boss tells me to develop a product, I go develop it. Sitting in the corner. Maybe in your little IT dept. world you need to go gab, but in mine I don't.

Wednesday, March 31, 2004

If you don't talk to your customers, you're probably not going to develop what they want. If it's just a little in house program then it's ok to sit in the corner and not talk to anyone. Communication is an essential part of the software development process no matter what ideaology you use.

chris
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

So what if you don't speak?

I see you are quite active in forums.

That's another method of communicating.

MX
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

If you are a programmer that just sits in a corner and hacks away, well … you might have a wrong perception about this profession my friend :-)
Personally, I’ve always considered well articulated, eloquent speakers to be the best-breed developers/professionals. Teaching/evangelizing is also something that any geek should be comfortable with.
Just look at some of the bright people in the industry that also write books and speak frequently ( don’t want to name names… choose any). Charismatic and eloquent. Eloquent...
Did I mentioned eloquence ?

Demotivator
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

From my experience, many companies do isolate their programmers to the point where contact with outside clientele or even other groups within the company is minimal to nonexistent. It's not an issue of whether the programmer is good or not.

One place I worked, requirements came strictly from the project manager and the only point of contact for ANYTHING was with the manager. Yeah, this was problematic for a variety of reasons and I don't work there anymore ...

My point is that it really depends on the organization or the type of software project. I do think it's safe to say that in certain types of organizations and projects, the actual software development is EXTREMELY secluded.

To anwer the original question, I felt I very much missed something in the world by not having the 'speech' in the world. ie.. sitting in the corner and hacking the box?

Douglas Coupland's "Microserfs" addresses this issue among others ... if you are interested about the social & cultural implications of careers in software development, this book is a very entertaining read.

Immature programmer
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

I develop programs for the mass market. I care about broad movements, not what martha in HR thinks. I identify trends, I evaluate competitors, I read weblogs. I don't get up and talk though. apw's post wasn't about communication, it was about *speech*.

Wednesday, March 31, 2004

Programming is a career path for introverts. Introverts don't like to talk to groups of people or socialize heavily, in general.

If you want to do this, seek out a local Toastmaster's chapter and participate, by all means. It can be very rewarding.

Sometimes factors like this - lack of opportunity to "talk", to relate socially as a job function - are a "chicken and egg" issue. IE: your employer may believe that you are not skilled at interpersonal relations or are antisocial "because" you are a programmer (believe it or not, this happens.) Or that you have cooties and are a marketing and sales liability because you are technical and you deal with hard and fast physical reality. Or that you "overthink" so much that you will drive away paying customers by your nitpicking.

IE: a lot of gifted technical people will be characterized as one dimensional a$$holes by others who don't want to deal with things as they are. Sometimes this view is well justified. So employers, seeking the safest path, will not even give you the opportunity to "damage" their image.

In any even, as a programmer, your options for personal growth can often be severely shortchanged because of other people's biases.

Bored Bystander
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

"Only stupid people make blanket statements."

As true of a statement as one could make.

It'd be an interesting summary to collect all of the absolutisms that have been vomited up on this discussion board. I suspect the combined inclusion set will yield around 3 developers. I also suspect that most of these nonsensical blanket statements are the result of petty jealousy/human frailty Bob much more productive than you? Well damnit, he sits like a lump on a log programming while you chat it up with HR, and we all know that programmers that don't chat it up are bad programmers.

Geez.

.
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

Not to get back on the hyper-absolutist thread from like a month ago, but. . .

Making a firm statement is much stronger than outlining all the possible caveats. Taken to extremes, if you qualified everything you ever wrote/said, you'd sound like a legal document or one of those car or credit card commercials where they outline all the small print in that really fast quiet voice.

For example:
Statement 1: I think that SQL Server is the way to go in this specific case for this specific project.
Statement 2: SQL Server is the way to go.

If you were to make the first statement to management, they're not going to trust your oppinion completely (even if it's your job to have the oppinion) because you sound wishy washy. You come across not confident and unsure of your decision, so your management as a result will not be confident and sure of your decision.

The second statement however, while being hyper absolutist is confident and assuring. The statement leaves no doubt as to the intentions. The "I think" and the "specific case for this specific project" can and should be assumed. Of course you think it, otherwise you wouldn't say it. Of course you're talking about this specific case and this specific project because it's the context that the question was asked in. Restating the criteria, makes it look like you're not sure about your decision, and that you're trying to cover your ass.

Elephant
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

Cool Elephant, so discussion isn't about the meaningful exchange of ideas, it's about screaming the loudest to 'win' the argument.

Wednesday, March 31, 2004

I agree with Elephant, provided that the context of the recommendation is apparent.

Of course, let me also point out that SQL Server is *always* the way to go, anyway...

[g,d,r]

[The author's comments are solely the opinion of the author, and do not reflect the opinions of Microsoft Corp, who are probably just barely tolerating the author as it is]
Philo

Philo
Wednesday, March 31, 2004

I'm a solitary guy who create speech (voice telephony) applications. Is that a speech career?

Julian
Thursday, April 1, 2004

"I agree with Elephant"

Well, I disagree with elephant, given the context.

not elephant
Thursday, April 1, 2004