The Old Joel on Software Forum: Part 4 (of 5)

Rich Dad, Poor Dad

I have a question for those of you who read the financial advice book named above:

Do you think the author implied that Rich Dad not only command more respect from Poor Dad's son (the author), but that he was also shagging Poor Mom while Poor Dad was away at work?

Maybe it's just me.

Anyways, I felt the book was mostly a big commercial for his seminars. But there was one lesson in his book that I thought was valuable:

When a "I'm A Real Writer" lady asked him why her book wasn't successful, he responded in essence, "Do you see the corner of my book here? It says Best Selling, not Best Written."

VP
Monday, March 1, 2004

it is funny how all these self appointed guru's love to mock their readers in their own books isn't it. "But guru how do I start a business ..." well first find a bunch of suckers, make outrageous promises ....

the artist formerly known as prince
Monday, March 1, 2004

The author (actually, the main coauthor) wrote the book first, then got the seminars going after Opra made him a resounding success by adding his book to her list. More books and other enterprises followed.

What I got out of the book was more of a class issue: rich folks *do* tend to tell their kids the facts of life--about money. Poor folks might if they just knew.

--My $0.02--

Not a Capitalist
Monday, March 1, 2004

My father was an mechanical engineer so when I was a kid, he told me and taught me a lot about physics, the basics of engineering, etc.

So, when I was 16 or so, I knew a lot about the basics of physics, and it was very easy to learn it.

I suspect the same process happens with rich parents / rich kids.

The rich parents tell and teach their kids about how to make and keep money.

The rich dad/poor dad book contains some excellent ideas.

It is worth reading.

However, it is also very annoying because it contains too little information in too much text. The author repeats the same information again and again in different forms.

Jackson
Monday, March 1, 2004

Are there any other good books about entrepreneurship?

MX
Monday, March 1, 2004

Funny you should mention this - I got this out of the library last week. The core idea that I got from the book seemed good - (buy stuff that makes money not stuff which costs money to keep) - but he did strike me as the sort of grinning maniac that I'd hate to be stuck next to at a party. Imagine "Hi my name is Bob and I'd just like to talk to you about...". There is such a thing as *over*selling.

As to the whole respect business - it just struck me that he was rebelling against his father. Much in the same way that the children of the rich sometimes express contempt for money.

a cynic writes...
Monday, March 1, 2004

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu

Fred
Monday, March 1, 2004

Check this review:
http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

drazen
Monday, March 1, 2004

The abover review is very interesting, and very detailed.

The real Entrepreneur
Monday, March 1, 2004

People that like Rich Dad owe themselves a reading of the John T. Reed link above.

To my understanding, the Rich Dad author made his money selling books, not investing in real estate. In general, don't take marriage advice from a bachelor.

I don't like the books because they contain about 1 paragraph of useful information repeated for 365 pages.

Monday, March 1, 2004

The main lesson in the book is:

Don't buy doohicky's, buy things that will make you money. Even if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Your wealth should be measured not by the value of your things, but by the "passive" income you have - which is pretty much where we're all going to be when we retire. That overall message is a good one, but having read my paragraph, I don't think you need to read the book.

One story from the book sticks out in my mind. His wife wanted to buy a Porsche, so he encouraged her to invest her money (i.e. create a business, which for Kiyosaki means real estate) in a way that would produce enough of an income to buy the Porsche for her.

An interesting concept, but he never gets in to how to start a business, or really... how to do anything, which is the carrot he keeps dangling through a half dozen (or is it a dozen now with his advisors) books and board games and cassette and video series (I saw an infomercial once when I was in a hotel), seminars and more.

In my opinion all of these "increase your income to your lifestyle" books are missing the point. The Millionaire Next Door* I think proved this, and the authors clearly differentiate between Income Statement Affluent - those with fancy things, but are still paying them all off, vs. those who have accumulated real wealth, but without imported cars and jacuzzi’s.

Read Your Money Or Your Life.** Rather than being a lot of hot air, it presents you with some solid ideas and real-world math. One of the later chapters hit me like a ton of bricks. It's what Rich Dad would've said if didn't want you to go to his Poor Son's high priced seminars.

I believe I have a review for Your Money Or Your Life on Amazon. Some of the specifics are pretty radical, and not necessarily right for this economy, but if you get that "ton of bricks" moment that I did, your relationship to money should shift. Don't take my word for it, read the Amazon reviews (if you believe them) and decide for yourself. Heck, get it from the library, I don't care. I've read Rich Dad, Charles Schwab, Peter Lynch, Andrew Tobias and Burton Malkiel. All of them had some good advice, none of them put it all together for me the way this book did.

I go over some of the concepts on my website (q.v. My November Experiment***). It's overly simplified, and only a few paragraphs long, but introduces some of the concepts from YMOYL.

Sorry if I sound like I'm gushing or in a cult or something, I'm trying to sqeeze this post out before the day begins and I'm in one of those moods...

* http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0671015206/ref=ase_r5un7ejl-20/104-5800193-2859911?v=glance&s=books

** http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140286780/ref=ase_r5un7ejl-20/104-5800193-2859911?v=glance&s=books

*** http://www.marktaw.com/blog/MyNovemberExperimentorFin.html

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, March 1, 2004

If you want to get away from the "If you want real advice, go to my seminar" then read this book:

"The Richest Man in Babylon" by George S. Clason

AnonX
Monday, March 1, 2004

Kiyosaki is a lying, unethical snake-oil salesman. His advice is marginal at best, and harmful at worst. He appeals to people that are looking for a scapegoat for their lack of wealth and are too stupid to discern sound personal finance advice from motivational cheerleading. Even more disconcerting is his denigrating of his "poor dad", who's sole fault seems to have been providing a good home for his no-goodnik piece of sh*t son.

Sombody beat me to the link already, but it deserves repeating.

http://www.johntreed.com/Kiyosaki.html

Dan Brown
Monday, March 1, 2004

I think he's aptly demonstrated a successful money-making process.

Namely: gullibility and stupidity are valuable market resources, you can convert them into porsches.

Mr Jack
Monday, March 1, 2004

Could John T. Ross not be considered a rival to Kyosjaciasjk (or whatever his damn name is) and thus not a reliable reviewer?

Mr Jack
Monday, March 1, 2004

Hey!

Psssst!

Here is the secret!

Delayed gratification!!

Riiiiight...

P.S. Wanna buy a Q?

Monday, March 1, 2004

Interesting that, among all the books mentioned on the theme of "How to get rich soon", the book "Your money or your life" also gets mentioned.

The latter book has nothing to do with getting rich, nor was it an attempt to make money by published a popular "money" book.

"Your money or your life" attempts to get folks to think seriously about their life goals vis-a-vis earning and spending money. It's great reading for anyone who has blandly accepted the "more is better" philosophy perpetrated by the big corporations and the media...

It's *not* about getting rich.

Not a Capitalist
Monday, March 1, 2004

Drazen et al., good call on that John Reed link. I'm surprised that so many JoS readers know of him. Reed's a stand up guy that debunks all the real estate get rich quick schemes and snake oil salesman (e.g. Carleton Sheets, Charles Givens, Wade Cook).

Is Reed a competitor of Kiyosaki, and therefore biased when reviewing him? No, not really. Reed writes about legitimate ways to invest in real estate, and they take a lot of work (which is a good sign that he's not a fraud).

Reed mentions in his review that he had heard that Kiyoshi was involved in some MLM* schemes, which propelled the sales of his book. I was actually approached by an MLM guy in Borders that was pushing the Rich Dad / Poor Dad book, so I think theory is plausible.

* MLM = Multi-Level Marketing, e.g., Amway.

Nick
Monday, March 1, 2004

Even if you consider Reed to be a competitor, he presents logical arguments with factual foundations. He says when he doesn't know the answer, and asks for help finding out.

If every politician played the game like Reed, politics would be entertaining and educational, not a series of aggravating jihads.

Also notice Reed's web style - content over form.

Philo

Philo
Monday, March 1, 2004

Philo just likes him because he's another military academy grad :^)

Nick
Monday, March 1, 2004

This book is a decent introduction to learning how to *think properly* about money, expenses, assets, and wealth accumulation. It's excellent inculcation to the culture of getting ahead. I do like its points about making oneself as independent as possible.

But it is pure snake oil as far as some operational details. One point that offends my sensibilities is Mr. K's harping on the subject of incorporation as a way to shelter income and assets. As I recall, he never comes out and SAYS to shelter income in a corp, but the implication is plainly there.

Bullshit! Doesn't work! Illegal! A one way ticket to pound me in the ass federal prison!

He's truly a dumbass and irresponsible for this one angle. Recommending illegal tax dodges is just plain wrong because some yahoo will try it and get it wrong (get caught).

Bored Bystander
Monday, March 1, 2004

OK, all the books in this genre get slammed since people read them, realize it is basically common sense, then trash it since the author is picking out the color on his/her private jet.

I approached another book like this (Unlimited Power by Tony Robbins) with a *lot* of skepticism many years back, but I have to say he won me over. Now granted, he has re-tread all the same themes in the first book a dozen times. So get the original one at your local library and judge for yourself.

Rich Dad, Poor Dad would drive many literature teachers to jump out the window since it repeats itself many times. The author seems to simply have forgotten where he left off in his notes and presents a point like he's doing it for the first time in the book, but it's actually the 4th time.

For me, the key point of the book is more of an expose on what success means to American culture and how we're simply playing out a pre-programmed script. Get good grades, go to college, get married, have 2.5 kids, and build a nice house with a white picket fence. Don't forget a new Chevrolet every 5 years.

Along the way consume, consume, consume. Work harder to get more toys. Need more money for toys? Go back and get a higher degree in your field. The author notes that his poor dad was not a dumb guy, he was just telling his son to follow the script. The rich dad told him to tear up the script and write his own. Work to gain experience, not a paycheck.

This concept scares the hell out of the sheeple that expect the sun to rise in the east, gas will mostly stay under $2 a gallon, and their team will win another championship. If someone is not holding their hand and guiding them to each milestone from cradle to grave, they get nervous.

The coolest idea that the book presents is escaping the rat race. You do that by simply having your passive income meet or exceed your expenses. Think about it - if you have say $3000 in total expenses per month and have that same amount coming in without slaving away for the man, then you've escaped. Of course, this is much harder to do if you owe on a McMansion, 2 gas guzzling SUVs, and $10K in credit card debt. He gives you the recipe, you just need to put the ingredients together for your own situation.

Shazam
Monday, March 1, 2004

Wow thanks for all the great thoughts everyone, and for the links that I would never have found on my own. JoS definately has a good signal to noise ratio.

Yeah I agree with most of you that the only good thing about his book is that it teaches you the right attitude you should have about money.

VP
Monday, March 1, 2004

Really, "Making you think about your money" is a pretty dumb reason to bother with a book that's full of pretty inaccurate, illegal, and unethical advice and no easy way to tell what's actually a good idea unless you happen to investigate every little thing.

I mean, the book is constructed to sound reasonable, but it's all a load of crap. The whole passive/active income stuff is wrong -- most people who are self-made folks had at least some of their lives spent working to make the money that they can then use to make passive income.

And, really, what rich parents teach their kids? I'll let Paris Hilton make that argument for me.

Flamebait Sr.
Monday, March 1, 2004

Hmm I should clarify: it teaches you spend your money in ways that generate more money for you, instead of just being a money sink

VP
Monday, March 1, 2004

But VP, you just did the same thing in one sentence. ;)

Philo

Philo
Monday, March 1, 2004

And that lesson isn't really in the book, besides. The book talks about porsches and rolexes and how to make your "company" pay for them (and, incidentally, end getting on the busienss end of an IRS audit)

Flamebait Sr.
Monday, March 1, 2004

Philo,

:p

God damn it, I'm an engineer, not a communications major :_)

VP
Monday, March 1, 2004

Something I learned from "Rich Dad": (roughly in my mind)

"Most Lawyers/Doctors are just self-employees, because they have to spend most of their day-time to earn money."

"Build a system, let it make money while you are sleeping"

"Instead of delivering water yourself, build a channel"

"You only have one million dollars, but millionair club won't allow you in, because you bring nothing on the table"

"To make much more money, extend your context."

"Your father do shopping for cheap ham every week, I do the same thing, instead I'm looking for good value real-estate."

BLAH,BLAH, BLAH.....

I learned something and filter out something.

Hate it or love it, it's up to you.

Can some one point me a 100% perfect real-world book?

A chinese programmer
Monday, March 1, 2004

China dude: It's not perfection we're seeking, it's honesty and integrity.

Seriously, did you need a book to point out that it's good to be able to live off of investments instead of working?

Jeesh!

Monday, March 1, 2004

“It's not perfection we're seeking, it's honesty and integrity.”
Very good point. That’s one reason I like JOS (The other is SMART).
Some of my friends treat “rich dad” series as personal financial advisor book. Honestly I just read it as an interesting fiction from the 3rd day I bought it.
Learn something from a 25$ fiction is not bad, I guess.
Now that people can share some bad experience about this book, I think I can share some positive experience about this book either.

“Seriously, did you need a book to point out that it's good to be able to live off of investments instead of working?”
Yes please. I appreciate it (It will be better If the book was written by a real world role-model)

A chinese programmer
Monday, March 1, 2004

The book is truly awful. He seems to have made all his money by either insider trading or effectively "insider trading" in real estate - by having information others didn't have about what was going to be built there soon.

As to his advice, "buy things that make money" is a pretty goddamn obvious tip.

There's a hundred pages of awful anecdotes about how bad the ungreedy, liberals, and so on are, of course.

Jason McCullough
Tuesday, March 2, 2004

Kawasaki simply espouses investing in rental real estate. Hardly snakeoil. He's just selling the old cliche "Do not work for money. Make your money work for you."

bella
Tuesday, March 2, 2004

Snake oil: A worthless preparation fraudulently peddled as a cure for many ills

He claims he has the cure, but doesn't offer any specific details. He says to invest in real estate, but doesn't offer any info on the mechanics. I know of 1 bankruptcy and 1 near-bankruptcy from investing in rental houses. It's not as simple as just saying "buy rental houses". He says to spend money on things that make money, but again no details.

Kiyosaki didn't make money investing in real estate. He made it by selling books and board games.

'nuff said.

Wednesday, March 3, 2004

Reed maintains that the problem with the "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" is not that it doesn't give speciifics, but that it does and they are plain wrong,. unethical, illegal or all three.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, March 3, 2004

Idiots.

Rich Dad is NOT supposed to be about HOW to make money in real estate. There are a BILLION books that will list this. This was a PHILOSOPHY book about financial HABITS and preferences. Never does

The cover of the book simply states: "What the Rich Teach Their Kids About Money--That the Poor and Middle Class Do Not!"

and yes, they teach them to make money work for them, (to use it to create passive income) rather then blowing it on "Stuff" that actually COSTS money to keep (space, maintenance, etc) ie: Not being consumers on the treadmill of debt and consumption.

bella
Wednesday, March 3, 2004

The book is badly written but contains a very important point:

Don't spend your money on stuff that will make you spend more. For example, if you buy a large house, that will cost you a lot of money in the long run because of maintainance costs. It's the same for a SUV, for example.

Spend money on stuff that makes you money.

Now, the trick (which is NOT in the book) is how to find stuff that makes you money.

The book is very badly written, but it is worth reading for the idea above. The idea above is very valuable and very important.

Also - don't buy his other books. He just rewrites the idea above, in several forms.

Jackson
Thursday, March 4, 2004

Can I save my money on the book and just read your post?

Thursday, March 4, 2004