The Old Joel on Software Forum: Part 4 (of 5)

Could .net fail?

On the positive side, people who've only been exposed to Windows programming through raw Win32 calls and MFC are really taking to C# and .net. Ditto for people who never used higher-level scripting languages. And I agree. C# is the best thing Microsoft has done in a long time.

On the negative side, there's a HUGE gap between the introduction of C# / .net and when it becomes standard in the next version of Windows (2006? 2007? 2008?). After that, there will still be a long time before only an ignorable minority of Windows users aren't running Longhorn (2012?).

And then there's the bit split between .net development for Windows and developing for other platforms. Sure, C# is an open standard, and sure, there's mono, but realistically you'll develop Windows applications in C# and use other tools for OS X and Linux.

There's also that C# may be too little, too late. It's better than C++, yes. But it isn't nearly as clean, simple, or flexible as Python or Ruby. C# feels like state-of-the-art 1990 to me, not a language for 2006.

Could .net implode, or at least be the straw the breaks Microsoft's dominance?

Junkster
Monday, February 23, 2004

Which dominance? Do you mean IT/Enterprise software development? They don't, and never have, dominated much of anything in that sector. That's what .NET is all about, fixing Microsoft's horrible reputation in the 'real enterprise'.

I've recently begun the move from ASP/VB COM to the .NET toolkit, and I'm simultaneously over and under - whelmed. Some things are great, some things are not. I've got 5 years of a fairly well-written ASP / VB toolkit at my disposal - so .NET is not offering me much just yet.

The fact remains that the usefulness of Web services is debatable as a general-purpose tool, and it seems to me that the single thing that really differentiates .NET is easy access to building SOAP-based applications. The OOP features are great, but at least where I work, Windows is banned from anything large-scale or transactional, where those OOP features would really shine. Sometimes, Windows servers just freeze.

So could .NET be a flop? It's possible Will it be? Probably not. The Toolkit Lemmings will migrate, ensuring at least some signifigant market share for the product.

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

The only thing that holds C# back is that it was developed by Microsoft. If Sun or another had introduced it and slapped their logos on it, you would have a lot more adoption by now.

It seems to me that a lot of C# development right now is ASP.NET, which it seems is superior to old ASP. Those developing C# desktop apps (like myself), are a smaller group. But I was already developing Windows apps using C++.

The MS haters will not use it for the one reason that it came from MS. It doesn't matter that someone is porting a Linux version, or that it might kick butt over Java. They argue that it isn't open, although MS has explicitly made it so it could be ported to other platforms. You don't have to pay MS to build your own C# compiler. You don't even have to pay to make your own implementation of the framework. Perhaps I'm wrong, but my understanding is that you do need to be licensed to make a Java compiler or runtime.

What is needed is for people to put down their hatreds and get back to developing the best software possible. If that can be best done in C#, then they shouldn't shun it because of it's origins.

Walt
Monday, February 23, 2004

"The only thing that holds C# back is that it was developed by Microsoft. If Sun or another had introduced it and slapped their logos on it, you would have a lot more adoption by now."

You mean Java? Yeah, there's lots of adoption of that on Windows...

Really, the main thing holding Java back on Windows is that doesn't have a logo from Microsoft.

Almost Anonymous
Monday, February 23, 2004

'Haters' aside, the only thing that holds c# back is Windows. 10 years of crashes, freezes, and security problems sealed their fate in many big IT shops long ago.

I like VB, and .NET looks good, but would you trust your bank account to a Windows machine?

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

"Would you trust your bank account to a Windows machine?"

Yes.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Monday, February 23, 2004

You probably do trust your bank account to a windows machine. Have you ever used a color ATM? Embedded Windows CE...

Elephant
Monday, February 23, 2004

Well, there are plenty of us that are doing a tidy sum of business with this doomed .NET thing. :')

Just as there are shops that won't run Windows in the enterprise, there are just as many that will. And many of these shops are openly embracing .NET, and reaping a benefit from the decreased development time over traditional ASP/VB apps. (And it has nothing to do with web services.)

.NET on the desktop may be a ways off, but it certainly is being adoped in the enterprise by plenty of companies.

Mark Hoffman
Monday, February 23, 2004

"crashes, freezes, and security problems"

Are these unique to Windows? To MS?

What was the recent estimate of the Windows codebase? 40GB? Try doing that bug-free.

Bugs are natural to all code for all software. It's because we're human. Stop playing the MS sucks card.

Walt
Monday, February 23, 2004

"Really, the main thing holding Java back on Windows is that doesn't have a logo from Microsoft."

ummm I disagree. For Windows applications Java is crap. NET Win Form apps blow away Java client apps.

And right now, ASP.NET is superior to J2EE Web development too (Although Sun's Java Server Faces is trying to close that gap). JSP is like old ASP and servlets are like the old web classes that never took off in VB.

That being said, Java is still perfect for the Web Services back end layer running on whatever OS you want.

The perfect architecture to me is having the back end on Unix with J2EE Web Services and the front end being in .NET - Win Forms & ASP.NET

GenX'er
Monday, February 23, 2004

I'm not trying to contend that Windows is crap. I'm contending that Windows has a bad reputation.

I've never, ever been able to get comparable uptimes from my quad-Xeon Win machines that I get from my cheapest *nix machines. That's a reputation killer if ever there was one.

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

Microsoft products and strategies do not fail, they evolve.

DDE -> COM -> DCOM -> DNA -> .Net

Simon Lucy
Monday, February 23, 2004

Bob -> Clippy

Monday, February 23, 2004

"I'm not trying to contend that Windows is crap. I'm contending that Windows has a bad reputation."

A: Bono sux!
B: Bono doesn't suck, he is a great vocalist!
A: I'm not saying Bono sucks. All I am saying is that he has a reputation for sucking.

Are you trying out for a job at theRegister?
You're hired!

Just me (Sir to you)
Monday, February 23, 2004

Whatever you say.

I use ASP / VB / VB.NET every day.

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

You're right. That was uncalled for and I do appologize.
I guess I'm a bit trigger happy today.

Just me (Sir to you)
Monday, February 23, 2004

No sweat, it's just tech.

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

Sassy,
Where do you shop to make sure there is no Win machines touches your transaction ? :)

WildTiger
Monday, February 23, 2004

Please.

Financial transactions don't happen at the point-of-sale, and they don't happen at the ATM. They happen on big, old machines that, for the most part, don't run windows. Maybe they're wrong, maybe they're crazy, but some IT shops don't trust a desktop OS to run 3 million transactions in a batch every night.

Simply put, there are *limits* to what .NET and Windows can do. There are hardware limits, there are software limits. Those limits are, mostly, not shared by .NET's major competitor, Java (which certainly has it's own problems). Could those limits be the point at which .NET fails?

The question was: "Could .NET Fail?"

I say: "Yes, it could, anything can, but it probably won't"

Why are you having such a problem with that?

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

"I've never, ever been able to get comparable uptimes from my quad-Xeon Win machines that I get from my cheapest *nix machines. "

Sounds like you need either better coders or better admins. Since post-NT, this is not a realistic argument as far as the operating system goes... that is unless you really hate patching.

uptime police
Monday, February 23, 2004

Every reboot on a Win system is -1 for uptime. Just upgraded the MDAC to fix a bug with SQL server image fields - reboot! It's a database client library, not a kernel patch.

You cannot have high uptime when the system needs to go down for patches, installs, and upgrades.

2k helps, but the problem is NOT solved.

Sassy
Monday, February 23, 2004

> It's better than C++, yes.

No actually. Just different. And C++/CLI makes it pretty obsolete...

_
Monday, February 23, 2004

You have to understand this is Anti-Slashdot. Dare to say a bad word about anything MS and you're instantly marked a "whiner", "MS hater" or communist ;)

_
Monday, February 23, 2004

+1 - User said anti-slashdot

m
Monday, February 23, 2004

Considering how unstoppable and thorough a language Java has become, Microsoft would still have you believe that it was full of embarassing short-comings that had no cure--unless you moved to dotnet. It's only natural that once you see pass the marketing eventually someday there will be a .net killer. The question is not whether that makes it unsuitable for today's work, the question is how well can you architect and code the software you have today so it will survive migrations through the generations.

Li-fan Chen
Monday, February 23, 2004

The day after I first see a stable Java program I might be willing to take another look at the language.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, February 24, 2004

Stable java programs I know of (among many others)
* Tomcat
* Eclipse
* jBuilder
* BEA Weblogic

R Chevallier
Tuesday, February 24, 2004

My feeling (based on talking to friends, looking at the number of books in bookshops, which books I see people actually buying etc.) is that in the UK .NET is mainly being used to
a) take the place of VB6 (and far from everyone is migrating, the others staying with VB6)
b) take the place of ASP (and far from everyone is migrating, the others staying with ASP or moving to JSP).

My gut feeling is that
a) it isn't taking off the way Microsoft were hoping
and
b) this is due mainly to
i) performance issues
and
ii) skepticism about Microsoft

Harvey Pengwyn
Tuesday, February 24, 2004

Rumor is .Net 2 Beta this summer/fall?

Elephant
Tuesday, February 24, 2004

Stable Java programs like all those server-based apps used by nearly every financial organization on Wall Street?

Sassy
Tuesday, February 24, 2004

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com) wrote:
"Would you trust your bank account to a Windows machine?"
Yes.

Um, Okay.

The site techieswithcats.com is running Apache/1.3.29 (Unix) mod_auth_passthrough/1.8 mod_log_bytes/1.2 mod_bwlimited/1.4 PHP/4.3.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2634 mod_ssl/2.8.16 OpenSSL/0.9.6b on Linux.

Anon Cow
Wednesday, February 25, 2004

Anon Cow,

what has one to do with the other?

Just me (Sir to you)
Wednesday, February 25, 2004

Claiming one is superior but using another seems hypocritical to me. Hardware price ranges dictate that we might use a high-availability server for mission critical applications while we would use a much less expensive one for less important applications, but when it comes to OS's there is really no excuse if you have a secure one that runs on both platforms.

Anon Cow
Wednesday, February 25, 2004