Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board

The Need to Outsource Explained

Now I can see why corporate America is outsourcing: it's the only option they have left after a century of greed run amok. This amusing (incomplete?) article has me thinking:

American History in 10 Easy Steps

Still Sober
Wednesday, December 10, 2003

"Not happy with the way World War I ended, we try it again in World War II. This time, we make sure that every country is bombed a decade or two into the past."

Um..yeah..whatever.  'cuz we all know that Americans were the ones driving the Panzers across Poland and were also secretly supporting the Japanese when they butchered Nanking and bombed Pearl Harbor.

Mark Hoffman
Wednesday, December 10, 2003

Wow, what a load.  What sandpit is that guy hiding his head in?

Wednesday, December 10, 2003

I don't think the writer was intentionally glossing over anything, but making a point. After all, at least some American bluebloods (like Prescott Bush, W's grandpa) did support the Nazis. I don't read it as a slam against WWII or our involvement in it.

Still Sober
Wednesday, December 10, 2003

If I recall correctly, the Nazi party up to and just after Hitler took office was less socialist than modern-day Germany.

Saying "supported the Nazis" with the hindsight of history portrays a different picture than "supported the party gaining power in a nation that had been a powerhouse of the civilized world for centuries."

For those people, at that time, it did NOT mean "supported invading sovereign nations and butchering its own population"

Wednesday, December 10, 2003

"After all, at least some American bluebloods (like Prescott Bush, W's grandpa) did support the Nazis."

That tripe's been going around the internet and has already been debunked. You guys believe everything you read on the internet?

Wednesday, December 10, 2003

Could somebody here post some damn links? Please, not another "he said, she said" thread.

Wednesday, December 10, 2003

There's a fairly non-partisan (AFAICT) assessment of the issue here:

Chris Hoess
Wednesday, December 10, 2003

I have not read the article yet.

Also, I'm not american and don't live in the US, but I think that without the US involvement in WW II, Europe would now be in deep shit.

Thursday, December 11, 2003


Agreed.  There was at least one famous historian (A J P Taylor) who reckoned that the major British success was keeping the whole thing going until the US got involved. 

Funnily enough, the US entered the war in Europe because Germany declared war on it, as part of a treaty with Japan.  A big mistake and one which overoad any objections by the large isolationist lobby.

There is also a theory that NATO was invented by Churcill to get the US to turn up on time to the next one. 

A cynic writes
Thursday, December 11, 2003

Judging by the number of times the US has invaded places since then it seems pretty keen to turn up /early/ for the next one (which will, of course, be the last one).

Thursday, December 11, 2003

aw...come on they're not invoved in *that* many wars - just a few big high profile ones. 

A cynic writes
Thursday, December 11, 2003

It is well worth mentioning that the biggest anti-Jewish rally outside of Nazi Germany was held in 1939 in Maddison Square Gardens.

The support for the Nazis in the US was basically a nationalistic matter. The US was founded jointly by English and German speakers. They gave up on a national language in 1787 because they couldn't decide on whether it should be English or German.

Plenty of people tolerated Nazism in the UK as well, and there were almost certainly more who supported Vichy in France than who joined the Resistance.

The Tom Fairlie thing is pretty trite, and the guy has no sense of chronology. Why even waste our time linking to it? Is the guy known for something else?

The last comment is spot on, but has been said hundreds of times before.

--"10. In order to make sure that nobody complains, America begins a global war on "terror" that is expected to last decades and will place U.S. military bases in practically every corner of the globe. Domestically, dissent is labeled as "unpatriotic"----

At least it's spot on describing the plan; I rather think there is already a rethink going on about troop expansion, and dissent seems to be coming back to the US with a vengeance.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, December 11, 2003

> They gave up on a national language in 1787 because they couldn't decide on whether it should be English or German.

Actually, Hebrew was the top contender next to English, German third.

history buff
Thursday, December 11, 2003


Do you feel it was a terrible mistake for the US to turn back Kuwait's invasion by Iraq?

Thursday, December 11, 2003

I beleived the first Gulf War was necessary. Iraq was a real danger at the time.

The Second Gulf War however was a naked war of aggression based on false pretenses.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, December 11, 2003

Gotta love Google. Here's some more interesting data:

"Between 1898 and 1934, the Marines invaded Cuba 4 times, Nicaragua 5 times, Honduras 7 times, the Dominican Republic 4 times, Haiti twice, Guatemala once, Panama twice, Mexico 3 times, and Columbia 4 times"

"General Smedley Butler was one of the most celebrated leaders of these Marine expeditions.  After he retired, he reconsidered his career, describing it as follows:"

"I spent 33 years and 4 months in active military service ... And during that period I spent most of my time as a high-class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers.  In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism."

"Thus, I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914.  I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in.  I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street."

"I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912.  I brought light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916.  I helped make Honduras right for American fruit companies in 1903.  In China in 1927, I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested."

Here's some more stuff:

1) The U.S. funded militant Islamic teaching in Afghanistan (Operation Cyclone) just to get them to fight the Soviets. The University of Nebraska even printed the textbooks that instructed them in the fine art of jihad. Oh and BTW, "Taliban" means "student"

"The Colder War"
"The ABCs of Jihad"

2) UNOCAL wanted a gas pipeline through Afghanistan and even courted the Taliban in Sugarland, Texas while Bush was governor. Now, the interim PM of Afghanistan (Karzai) and our ambassador to Afghanistan () are both former UNOCAL employees. Our bases are even along the proposed pipeline that UNOCAL is now building.

3) Read here for more information:

Thursday, December 11, 2003

So a two star General is of the opinion that the wars weren't justified and suddenly it is now un-arguable fact?

There is probably a lot of truth to what he says, but a Major General is hardly privy to the details of such high level machinations.

But let's be honest..Let's take an account of what countries such as England, France and Germany were doing during the same time frame. Oohh..that wouldn't paint such the picture of America as a villian, now would it?

Bang Bang.
Thursday, December 11, 2003

>Oohh..that wouldn't paint such the picture of America as a villian, now would it? <

You do have a point. Then again, the gap between the ideals we Americans espouse and how we actually conduct ourselves internationally at times is nothing to cheer about.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home