The Old Joel on Software Forum: Part 3 (of 5) - Microsoft gets a feel for large scale services

Microsoft gets a feel for large scale services

This is a great article about the Hotmail conversion. http://www.securityoffice.net/mssecrets/hotmail.html#_Toc491601835

Reading through that there are so many things that are still true in W2003. If you do server admin you will really appreciate some of the things a Unix or Unix like artchitechture allow.

Another thing I noticed in reading through this and some of the other articles was that Microsoft does realize that when running a service you get the best admins you possibly can and treat them equal to developers and foster a good relationship between both camps. http://www.securityoffice.net/mssecrets/msdetails.html#_Toc462642144

Also uptime, reliability and ease of administration far outweigh feature rich programs. This kind of goes in the face of the current Longhorn hype/

Some good reading. I'd have to say this is my favorite quote Moreover, the skill set of the MS-technology-capable developer is radically different than the skill set needed to build and deploy large, scalable services. " That last line people is why C# in a database will not make T-SQL or the DBA go away.

Mike
Saturday, November 15, 2003

I'd have to agree that Microsoft is just learning what it takes to provide services.

Microsoft has a real understanding of the desktop and has been a winner there. The principles that won them the desktop (rich user interfaces and complexity) will not win the services war. Gee, I could do really great things with at site xyz, but they crash too much. And it was nice to see them talk up Unix.

Jed
Saturday, November 15, 2003

>"Moreover, the skill set of the MS-technology-capable developer is radically different than the skill set needed to build and deploy large, scalable services. " That last line people is why C# in a database will not make T-SQL or the DBA go away.

I think the "skill set" referred to here is not so much the technology but the mindset of the developer, and also includes external factors like the expectations of managers.

Viz:

Front-end programmer screws up Javascript, well, that's bad, but the dude was under pressure to get it out the door. Just fix it, no big deal.

DBA hoses the database, must be an idiot, unless he has a damn good reason then just fire him and get someone competent.

It's going to be a while before C# in the database is proven enough to be considered enerprise ready; but once that is done, I see no *technology* reason why you couldn't do all, or most, of the work in it, and I fully expect to see an article somewhere that talks about replacing all, or most, of the "legacy T-SQL" with shiny new C#. That's the biz, sweetheart.

PL/SQL (Oracle's SQL) is still quite active, and so I don't expect T-SQL to die; and DBAs, as I said in the other thread, seem to be in no danger of disappearing.

As for Microsoft and services, it's a tough call. Microsoft has been doing a big server side push for well-nigh 10 years now, and they've hired some brilliant people (eg, Jim Gray), who definitely *do* understand the issues. All of the not-like-Apple, not-like-Unix comments are a bit weird when you consider that Microsoft has hired lots of ex-Apple, ex-Unix folks! Perhaps like King's advisors, they simply are not listened to, and this might even make sense when you consider where the money is flowing in from (largely still the front end).

Portabella
Sunday, November 16, 2003

"I fully expect to see an article somewhere that talks about replacing all, or most, of the "legacy T-SQL" with shiny new C#. That's the biz, sweetheart."

I agree. We will see that. No sound technological basis or business reason, but this industry does suffer from needing to reinvent the wheel with every new technology. Has XML cured cancer yet?

" and this might even make sense when you consider where the money is flowing in from (largely still the front end). "

Again true. But the writing is on the wall. Service computing is the future, not rich desktop apps. Microsoft continues to try to corner a shrinking market. The time they waste doing this is going to let other reliable service platforms lock them out.

Mike
Sunday, November 16, 2003

> but this industry does suffer from needing to reinvent the wheel with every new technology.

Everyone says this, but few act accordingly ;)

> The time they waste doing this is going to let other reliable service platforms lock them out.

Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

The world's smallest violin is playing for them over at my house :)

Portabella
Sunday, November 16, 2003

"Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww.

The world's smallest violin is playing for them over at my house :) "

Oh, I'm not feeling sorry for them either. I just can't fathom their ignorance. I guess it is just like an Ostrich.

Mike
Sunday, November 16, 2003