Fog Creek Software
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over dependent on H1B and L1

Wednesday, January 14, 2004

Yes. Idian companies are hiring Indians on H1B here.  Lot's of them.  Even if they pay competitive wages, the Indian managers would rather manage 10 Indian programmers than 1 American programmer.

Management by ever increasing pressure doesn't work well on Americans. 

All deviations from plan are believed to be due to insufficient pressure. Usually solved by yelling ever louder at the frequent LONG meetings.

Just my first-hand observation with two Idian-owned companies here in the US.  This may not be a representative sample. But my many Idian co-workers said it was.

Wednesday, January 14, 2004

Isn't that wonderfully ironic?  It's the good ole' boy racism, turned around a complete 180.  I, too, have seen this in action. ;)

Flamebait Sr.
Wednesday, January 14, 2004

Your observation is on target. I have worked for two Indian owned firms.  Both admitted to hiring me as a white face on their company.  To get them in the door.  They also had no trouble dumping us later.  After two, I now avoid Indian owned firms. 

Before anyone cries bigot, if I owned a company and hired someone to put an Indian face on it, racism screams would be coming out of the walls. 

Interesting side note.  The caste system is still very much in place in India and in the two companies I worked at.  Stranger yet was that it seemed ok with everyone, even those kept at a lower level.

Wednesday, January 14, 2004

  All I can say is that doobius and anon had the misfortune of joining some dumbass company .. as for anon's observation on caste system in Indian companies ... c'mon give us a credit ... Indian developers are not an uneducated, unproffessional and illiterate idiots who follow the caste system in office .. for one thing .. the job market in India is really hot .. so if someone feels disriminated against he/she usually leaves the company within a week .. the companies here have a tough time retaining employees ... you might have had the misfortune of landing up in a *really-2* unprofessional organisation .. and that could have been any firm .. American or Indian ... I am really surprised to read a lot of posts here suggesting that Indian programmers are crap and unimaginative ... I could give examples of projects that came to us because some US company screwed up big time .. I have seen a lot dumb code written by some Americans .. does this mean that I generalise that all American programmers are crap .. the ratio of good/bad programmers in Indian software industry is the same as any in the world .. One more thing .. on another post I read .. someone had posted a lot of articles about the caste system in India using it as an argument against outsourcing/offshoring  .. that was the dumbest argument I have heard against offshoring .. I can find a hell of a lot of artices about racism in the US .. does this mean that I stop doing business with the US .. (phew .. that was a big load off my chest ;-))

Indian Programmer in Indian Company in India
Thursday, January 15, 2004

I really doubt if Indian software companies in the US are managed by Brahmins who wear their golden thread, insist on preparing their own food. and put a screen around them when they eat so that lower castes and non-humans such as Americans can't look on and defile their food. After all, what about all the Indian Muslims?

I do think it quite likely that the two Indian companies might be considered more hierarchial and crony-ridden than many americanorganizations of comparable size.

Interestingly enough somebody posted a link to a blog from an Indian who worked in the US before going back to the States in which he stated that American companies were more fomral and hierarchical than Indian firms. He particularly missed the "Indian way of doing things; going over to somebody's cubicle and talking about a problem until it had been thoroughly thrashed out". He said this was much more difficult in American firms. This suprised many, but I suspect part of the explanation may be that this behaviour is common in Inda, among employees of the same rank; the stricter hierarchy in an Indian firm causes greater informality among workers at each level.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, January 15, 2004

Then why do Indians tell me that they will not do business whtih another Indain until they can determine their cast. It takes a while sometimes.

Why did so many Indians who were taken advantage of by other Indians who own these companies tell me that this is how it is done. Why did I obseve the same thing in Mumbai?

Everyone I've met who ever worked for an Indian owned company in the US gives the same story.

Thursday, January 15, 2004

BTW - I'm not against the H1B program. I just think that I should not have to compete on the basis that my competitors are victims of the social disgrace that is the caste system.  But many Indian owned companies will leverage the caste system for all they can get out of it.

Thursday, January 15, 2004

Doobius .. your arguments are sounding just like your name .. u have to be really out of your mind to be suggesting that Indian companies legitimise caste system .. FYI .. Infosys does not legitimise caste system .. know that 'cos I worked there .. Wipro owned by Azim Premji .. he's an indian muslim .. so he does not follow caste system .. TCS owned by Ratan Tata ..he's a parsi .. i.e. he's not a hindu ... he does not follow the caste system .. your competitors are not victims of caste system .. you are a victim of price wars ...  I agree caste system is prevalant in India .. just as racism is prevalant in the US of A ... but things are changing for the better ... like i said in my previous post .. u had the misfortune of working with a really *doobius* company .. don't make sweeping statements on the basis of one event .. if a shopkeeper in the US practises racism should I say that all American businesses legitimise racism ?? 
Like Stephen Jones said .. work culture depends more on oraginzation culture rather than country .. Infosys has an employee strengh of more than 10,000 people .. you need a hierarchy there .. same with TCS(more than 25,000 employees) ... small companies have an informal work culture .. but then I guess it the same in US .. Microsoft, Oracle, Accenture and EDS will have a hierarchy and formal work culture whereas a small firm or a startup will have an informal culture .. i think it has more to do with number of employees.

Indian Programmer in Indian Company in India
Friday, January 16, 2004

I think Doobius, that what these poeple are saying is that they won't do business with somebody until they fully know his background. Simple self preservation, particularly in India. To a lesser extent you see it in certain sectors in the US and UK where people won't do business until they know which school and university you went to.

Going back to the main point I am always amazed that H1B's raised great objections but the gross abuse of L1's that is goiing on has raised hardly a murmur. Yet demanding parity for salaries for L!'s would stop the abuse in its tracks, whilst having the whole-hearted backing of the hapless L1 holders whe are being equally shafted, and could easily get Indian public opinion on board to.

Stephen Jones
Friday, January 16, 2004

If you need a robot - Hire an Indian. If you need so real cognative resources to complete a tricky project stay in America. The State of Washington hired an indian firm to complete some welfare and HUD software. The firm has now postponed the completion date 6 times! It's alredy 9 months past due. But when the State hired them, they stated "We can finish Real Early!!". Ya well, 9 months later and State Government is not holding their breath. In fact, another 6 months and they will scrap the idea all together and start again!

Basically, don't be duped! These guys are no more then cut 'n paste jockies. If you need a redundent job, there is no one cheaper. But if you need a solution. Forget India your wasting your time not to mention your money.

Saturday, January 17, 2004

JS, I would blame the management side of The State of Washington for their delay in the project. Thats a poor management from their part in whom to give the project to, not the least bidder. There are very good Indian firms like Infosys, Wipro, TCS who are world class. I think you need a reboot in ur career. how abt management?? instead of programming.

Tuesday, March 2, 2004

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