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Internet became dirty by non-quality applications

i am tired in doing cheap things with short time for complete. I am developing applications that is good in an idea, but by the reason of a little price, i can not add in them many usefull things, and even something that is made it more comfortable in use. Customer want to get project for only $100.00, when the real price of it is $500.00 . It is possible, but many features will be cut. As the result Internet became dirty by non-quality application, non-complete scripts and etc. Why? Who needs it?

I want to do and do clean work. I am tired of doing it for nothing. I developed module of multi-languages support thanks for them you can easy to translate all site in any new language just by translating 2 text files, and adding name of language from admin area, and do not need to make new HTML pages for each language, and NOBODY pays bonus for this for more then 1 year long. There are many similar examples. and are one of the biggest system where you can get very cheap code, it is hard for my heart to do it and i am really tired from it.

As i see, there are many clever persons
May be anybody can say, where one can find job, or orders on project where equivalent of price/quality will be accordingly.
thank you

Valentin Semak
Thursday, July 24, 2003

Valentin, are you basically saying that the clients that you are finding on the online job sites push you around and lowball you by asking for "everything" for a really cheap price?

Bored Bystander
Thursday, July 24, 2003

go to urls that i gave, and you will see.

Valentin Semak
Thursday, July 24, 2003 this some sort of roundabout way of spamming some trashy sites?

Thursday, July 24, 2003

I've got my own opinion of the bid-for-jobs freelancer web sites. They all seem to be pretty much alike. The clients seem to be dreaming or thinking up scams, and the requested price ranges are almost always ridiculous. And, the "clients" want absurd amounts of up front specification work for free as part of any bid.

But some people claim that they can make enough money from it to be worth the bother.

Bored Bystander
Thursday, July 24, 2003

I live in Eastern Europe, and my company does a lot of work for companies in US, Germany, etc.

We specialize in Delphi applications and components development.

One of the incentives I use to convince the clients to work with my company is, of course, price.

However, when I look at sites like eLance or RentACoder, the proposed prices seem very low even to me.

These sites encourage intense competition between the buyers, so, even if I have a good proposal, I will be outbid by somebody who is willing to do the work for much less.

However, I noticed that even on these sites, there are clients who choose the bidders according to the quality of their proposals - so, you may offer a higher price than those individuals, and still win bids.

I never worked on projects from RentACoder or eLance myself, but I have a friend, who has a company smaller than mine, and who got a few good clients trough eLance.

I consider that competing on price is not worth it. Price is an argument, but if you, as a development company, compete only on price, you will probably have very little profit.

So, Valentin, my advice to you is not to compete on price, but to provide and emphasise to your clients advantages like:

- high quality development

- the fact that you respect the deadline

- transparent development process (by this, I mean your clients have access to timesheets and source code every day, so they can track the project properly)

Price must be an argument, but if it's your main argument, you will probably lose.

John K.
Thursday, July 24, 2003

Just the other day on "Rent a Coder" I saw a requst for an ERP application.  They wanted it deliverd with all rights and source code for $500.

Thursday, July 24, 2003

I think in the future RentACoder and the like will have to make it possible for coders to show their view of what realistic pricing should look like. RentACoder exist to please those who believe it's a buyer's market, so buyer's should set the price, but the way some of these specs are written out is so ridiculous. The other day I saw someone ask for some really complex software for USD$200 bucks! And they specifically say you the coder has to sign away the source. I am amazed and how stupid the pricing and terms get. I don't know why programmers let others push them around like that.

Li-fan Chen
Thursday, July 24, 2003

>> I don't know why programmers let others push them around like that.

It's the "I'm having fun being a geek and I'm paid to play so I need to grovel for fun things to do" mentality.

Friday, July 25, 2003

I'm waiting for the Harvard Business Review article that finds a lot of modern software is poor, based on the results of the well-informed, fair-minded businesmen who hire developers using Rent-a-Coder and its like.

Friday, July 25, 2003

Valentin, just ignore offers that are ridiculously low. They're not worth your trouble; they won't become good business. Set minimum levels and work only with people prepared to pay that.

Friday, July 25, 2003

I actually did a job from rent-a-coder. My bid wasn't the lowest prices, but it contained more then 'I can do it for $10' (the typical bid type on rent-a-coder).

It didn't pay a lot, but it paid enough for the effort I needed to put into it. The buyer liked my work enough that I did several more projects for him (again, at a price that was worth the effort involved).

When I look through the listings of jobs, I immediately ignore the 'clone this software/website' and the 'write a spammer tool' entries. A decent bid would never be accepted. I only look at the ones where the buyer looks serious, has decent requirements laid out, and has set an appropriate bid range - this weeds out 99% of the entries.

Friday, July 25, 2003

>>Valentin, just ignore offers that are ridiculously low

Valentin's problem is strategic. He's looking in the wrong place for work.

The problem is that he's using sites like Elance and its ilk. I've checked some of them out. ANY project where a halfway fair price is proposed is *mobbed* with many, many bids. So it usually seems futile to even try.

The only "chance" (based on odds) always seems to be with the idiots who want an entire ERP package developed for $200.

Bored Bystander
Friday, July 25, 2003

Differentiating on price is always difficult to sustain - you always have to be the cheapest. Clients who select on price today will select on price tomorrow as well. Their loyalty is based on their wallet and they'll always be someone somewhere that'll be cheaper.

You need to differentiate yourself in a different way, which the market demands, and find clients whoose loyalty is based on that.

Friday, July 25, 2003

Step 1: $500 in India is good money and "million" freelancers are ready to jump prices. First-second year emmigrants in Europe/North America are also willing to work for $500 or the like.

Step 2: I know no one who works for that price for serious business projects.

Evgeny /Javadesk/
Friday, July 25, 2003

$ 500 in many countries is an average programmer's salary for 1 month, and is considered an excellent salary.

Very good programmers get $ 1000 per month, but only if they are worked to the death. :)

I used to know a guy who earned $ 1000. He worked 12 hours days, and also worked a lot in the week-end.

He was very tired all the time, and when we met, he didn't have time (always wanted to meet for 20 minutes for a soda), and was always with his eyes on his hand watch.

Many times, he would get calls from work while we were hanging out, and had to get back to work.

It felt like he was on a leash.

I earn more than that, but I have my own company.

John K.
Friday, July 25, 2003

I heard about RentACoder through this forum.  I was unemployed at the time, so I thought, what have I got to lose.  It took me a while to realize that if you just avoided all the idiot postings (the 1000x clones of AdAware and the $200 ERM solutions), there were actually some jobs worth doing and some people who would pay for them.  I won two contracts totalling $3800, and in both of them I was the outrageously high American bidder.  My trick?  Write a decent proposal.  You wouldn't believe how many bids are no more detailed than "sure ill build ur sistem for $100".  I got my work done and the same clients have been clamoring for me ever since; I feel bad since I have to turn them down ever since I got a "real job".

Friday, July 25, 2003

Anything that reduces features is a "good thing". Most apps have way too many features making them difficult to develop and maintain, buggy, hard to use, etc.

Friday, July 25, 2003

Gee, the real price is $500? So basically we are talking about less then 2 days of work.

Can’t be that large of project........

The fact of the matter is that many business wonder why such and such piece of software is not written:

Answer: At the given cost, the business is not willing to pay, and at that cost, the software simply will not be developed.

There is not some magic number that is pulled out of a hat here. At $20 per hour, $500 represents 25 hours of work. That is 3 days of work if you put in 8 hours, and I know coders to put in WAY more then that!

If you are good first rate developer, then the same work at $75 per hour is now only 1 day. So, either way, this thing can be delivered in 1 to 3 days of work, depending on how good the developers are. At $50 per hour, you get 2 days of work.

While a good developer is 100 times as productive a s a bad one, it all evens out at the end. For $500 dollars, you will get a given amount of work in the marketplace. That developer might take 35 hours, or 7 hours, but what the market value of the work done DOES NOT change.

Of course the above is not quite that simple..but it actually is quite close.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada

Albert D. Kallal
Sunday, July 27, 2003

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