Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board

A new web broswer

After reading Joel's new article, I am quite interested in this Mozilla browser. Can you share your experience if you have tried it? Do you recommend it to the average users?

I might suggest installing it on my clients' machines if your opinions are positive.

And, I know it's cool but if the average users won't switch to it, Microsoft won't have to worry updating IE for maybe another 5 years.

Sunday, June 1, 2003

Try it out...  You don't need to go through an install procedure; it can be run from an unzipped folder.  Remember, get the one called "Firebird," which is currently a branch which will become the main official Moz release after the next point version.

The one bug that bit me is with many tabs and instances open, that it refuses to look at sites it hasn't visited in the current session; I do not know if it has been fixed for Moz RC1.  Other than that, I think it is a very good product.

When you test it, remember to think about flash, pdf, and other plugins.  For accessibility, you can use larger toolbar icons, remove some, etc...

Sunday, June 1, 2003

Worth the download. Very neat.

John Rosenberg
Sunday, June 1, 2003

type-ahead-find is darn cool too

Matthew Lock
Sunday, June 1, 2003

I just downloaded Firework and I like it. But I have also a question. The shortcut for incremental search is "/" and this looks like the developer had vi in mind, when (s)he built that feature. Now, as a vi addict, I'd like to have more vi shortcuts, especially j and k in order to navigate up and down. Does someone know if this can be made, possibly by means of an exctension.

Here Th. ere (e-Very Where)
Sunday, June 1, 2003

The search field in the toolbar is great (though the Google toolbar for IE has the highlighter feature which is close enough).  I also like the popup eater and the tabs could be useful in some situations. 

It's fast but, in my short time playing with it, not particularly faster or slower than IE. 

One major annoyance is that hover scroll (middle mouse click) doesn't work.  I use this constantly and consider it a deal breaker.

The non-standard UI controls, in general, are annoying.  Thankfully, they at least tried to mimic the real Windows controls but missed the mark on a few points.  I realize they probably roll their own for portability but given the very limited amount of work that needs to be done for the browser frame, is it really necessary?  Do they gain that much to justify sacrificing usability for the end user who is used to controls working like they do in 99% of other apps?

To summarize, I'm not seeing anything that makes me want to use it over IE.  The nifty little additional features  (search field, popup eater, tabs) are minor points and can be added to IE with plug-ins.  The annoyances (particularly hover scroll not working) will keep me from evaluating it further.

Sunday, June 1, 2003

> It's fast but, in my short time playing with it, not
> particularly faster or slower than IE. 

That's good enough for me. IE is part and parcel of Windows and if it's as fast as IE that's pretty good. Especially considering some of the earlier Mozilla's that took several minutes to load.

Opera has a Google / Other search engine search from the toolbar and a quick preference for things like popups and cookies.
Sunday, June 1, 2003

What Mozilla has that I like:

* Tabbed browsing - I hate having 5 IE windows in my task bar (and I always have about 5 browser windows open).
* The good old JavaScript console (which has always been more informative than IE's script error messages) and extra nice DOM/JavaScript tools in the Script Debugger (better than MS Script Debugger and/or VS.NET's offer) and the DOM inspector.
* Better CSS support. (The FONT tag MUST die!)
* Sometimes it's still a bit more stingey than IE in terms of rendering things which can indicate you need to fix your web page's DOCTYPE or perhaps add a MIME type to a (servlet container) web.xml file.

You can/could get a theme that made Mozilla look like IE (pretty much) too. Although it doesn't have those nice rounded buttons like IE on WinXP (then again, I loaded XP on my home machine for the first time in ages and was reminded of the rounded buttons, so they're certainly no show-stopper must have for me).

I've been using Mozilla pretty much since 1.0 came out and most of the time (both at work and home) it's my browser of choice. Even now, working on a project targetted for IE5+ users I sometimes hop over to Mozilla to check out script errors and because I can have 3 or 4 tabs with stuff like JavaDoc for the SDK, perhaps a copy of Thinking In Java, Google, etc which are useful to have and easy to switch between.

Walter Rumsby
Sunday, June 1, 2003

When you install and use the Luna theme on Mozilla Firebird, it will use the native control widgets (both in the dialogs of the app and in the web pages).

Of course, a page can override and ask for the old widgets with a META tag. The Luna theme even respects this IE-ism and uses the older widgets when requested.

Brad Wilson (
Sunday, June 1, 2003

As a bonus, I've been using the Mozilla email client for about 3 weeks now.  The spam filtering capabilities are:
. Still in its infancy
. Fully functional
. A thing of beauty

What a marvelous thing to watch mail from "urgent assistance" get marked as spam and dumped when I check my mail in the morning.  Other things, like "I'm out of office..." (who cares?) get dumped as well.

I used to bemoan "why are they wasting their time on email when their browser is such a pile..."  Now, I'm glad they did. 

Nat Ersoz
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Mozilla has been my browser since its 0.6 or about versions.
And Phoenix (now called MozillaFirebird) has been my Mozilla flavour since I met it on its 0.5 days.
I recommend it to anyone. Just keep IE around for the broken sites that support only it.
This isn't intended as a troll or anything like that.
Respect my opnion, please.


Sunday, June 1, 2003

Is it worth my while uninstalling Netscape? I only use it for browsing. I have Outlook for mail.

Is it worth downloading the latest Linux version? The version I have at the moment came with Mandrake 9.0

I only have a dialup and pay $1 an hour so I'd appreciate your opinions

Stephen Jones
Sunday, June 1, 2003

You don't need to uninstall previous browser versions.
MozillaFirebird can be installed in any directory.
It is worth the small downloads:

Less than 7 MBs:

Less than 10 MBs:


Sunday, June 1, 2003

I've been using Firebird since v0.5 and I've been using Firebird 0.6 of late -- my two bits: yes, the HTML and CSS support is very good, but there are weaknesses in the UI:

1) The history pane has a nasty habit of 'forgetting' what view you were in.

2) Bookmark management is still flaky

3) XSL still sucks, but this is a Mozilla Transformiix problem, Firebird doesn't have much to do with it.

Other than that, Firebird is really good. My personal favorite new feature is that you can now Ctrl-Shift-Left arrow through the URL in the status bar, just like IE.

I'm looking forward to new releases of this baby.

And oh, I do think everyone is reading a bit too much into "no new standalone" versions of IE. All this would mean is that Win9x users are out in the cold -- users of Windows 2000 and up will continue to get IE updates through Windows Update.

Prasenjeet Dutta
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Myself, I've been using Mozilla on Windows a my main browser for ... well, since 1.2 or so.
I still keep IE around, but am happy to report that nowadays 99+% of my browsing is done with Mozilla (as a matter of fact, the only site I surf to with IE is my bank, where Mozilla won't let me log in :( ). If ti wasn't for "Website Watcher", that uses the embedded IE control, I wouldn't be seeing any IE-rendered page most days ;)

Not only that, where I was a 100% OExpress user for mail, since Mozilla 1.3 and their Junk Mail controls (and much improved IMAP handling), I'm using it more and more as my main email sw(at work, I use it for 98% of my email; only use OE to check my hotmail accounts ;). If the trends continues, I'd say I'll be IE-free in a couple of months :)

It's selling points for me?
- Browser: Tabbed browsing, Password Manager, Multizilla add-on (
- Mail: Junk Mail Conotrols. For me, the "Killer feature".

Am downloading Firebird to have a look at it now ;)

Javier Jarava
Sunday, June 1, 2003

"SomeBody" said:
"One major annoyance is that hover scroll (middle mouse click) doesn't work.  I use this constantly and consider it a deal breaker."

Check out -- maybe one day it'll be integrated.

Duncan Smart
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Here's one negative review: someone said that if you go to using IE then you see a frame on the left with running text, the first item being "Tarjeta TIERI". Mozilla doesn't show that text. The problem is the Web site's using things that only work with MSIE.

Christopher Wells
Sunday, June 1, 2003

I've been using Mozilla for a few months and have found that tabbed browsing is brilliant.
The other really great feature is gesture recognition. This was pilfered from Opera.
Once you get used to gestures and tabs there is no going back.
The one thing I've seen that I want to add is Safari/Kamino's load all links from a bookmark area.
Mozilla shows why monopolies are bad. Once you have one there is no incentive to improve the product.

Pete Something
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Opera is still the best.

opera freak
Sunday, June 1, 2003

The page is a vile example of overdesign. It has a total of 71 (yes, SEVENTY-ONE) image files; all the text is in fact image.

Perhaps they want to drum up customers for the hospitals; if you're not ill before you see the site you will be afterwards.

The whole thing runs on javascript. And badly even in IE, the mouse over effects are caused by changing from one image file to another (Netscape doesn't show the second one) and there is often a five second gap between the mouse going to the "text" and the second animation showing.

Funnily enough I clicked on one of the link pages and found it was written in Front Page 4.0 but the animation (as neat cool and nstantaneous as it was completely pointless) worked perfectly in Netscape.

Incidentally the main problem with using images for text is that they cannot be resized at all. For a site that is supposed to be the link to public health services this is a real no-no. If the web site was a building the Madrid Community would have to close it down because it would break their bye laws about disabled access.

Still, they've just had the elections a few days ago so there is little that can be done, except to say that the Communidad Autóma de Madrid has lived up to its reputation of being all show and no content.

Stephen Jones
Sunday, June 1, 2003

I would have used Firebird as my default browser, if it wasn't for MyIE2 that is!

It's the IE engine embedded with all the features you will ever need. Popup killer, ad killer, tabbed browsing, extremely configurable, uses less memory than Firebird, more languages available, plugin support... I could go on, but just try it instead (did I say it was free?)

Sunday, June 1, 2003

Two more recommendations for add-ons:

1) Checky
This is a great time saver for anyone creating web pages. It allows you to check HTML, CSS, etc of the current web page using online validators like from the right click context menu.

2) Gestures
Personally, I use the middle mouse button to activate them. Mouse trails are nice too for a bit more feedback.

Jan Derk
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Like "opera freak" wrote, Opera in still the best, it has all the above mentioned features, including but not limited to:

* Easy switch from IE to Opera (auto import of favorites)
* Intergrated email client
* Intergrated news client
* Alt-D/Ctrl-Enter feature built it
* Google (and other engines) search built in (just type g word to search Google for "word")
* Automatic "Next" finder (hit space to go to next page!)
* Mouse gestures (beware, they look inocent, but they are addictive!)
* Fast as a jet
* Support for Mouse wheel
* Standard GUI - not XUL (mozilla) mimics
* Popup stopper (with different options)
* Tabbed browsing
* Better CSS support
* Great bookmark managment
* Great cookie managment
* "Delete Private Data" button

Another Opera Freak
Sunday, June 1, 2003

So it should really be Opera v. Mozilla which is better...

Which is the most popular browser?

Looks like *everything* is being beaten out by IE6.
Sunday, June 1, 2003

That should read:

So it should really be Opera v. Mozilla: which is better...
Sunday, June 1, 2003

I don't know about other people, but I run opera to identify as IE.  I've found that if I don't do this, a lot of sites dont work right, cause they don't know that don't detect browser features, only the browser name.

Daniel Schwartz-Narbonne
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Here are my choices:

Very good tabbed browsers based on IE:



Very good e-mail client:

The Bat!

Very good program to download whole web sites:

Metaproducts Offline Explorer

Very good download manager:


Very good file manager (Norton Commander-style):

Total Commander

Darth Bladder
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Thanks for the tips on some of the issues I cited.  The Luna theme does help it feel more native (even if you don't have XP themes enabled).  It's still not perfect -- the menus didn't go fully native (annoying because they have a tendency to not go away) and still no gripper on the scrollbar for resizing the window.

The autoscroll extension is perfect.  I really like that it's so straightforward to find and install extensions and themes. 

One nice feature I discovered while playing with autoscroll is that middle-clicking opens links in a new tab (I'm assuming this is independent from autoscroll). 

Another nice feature is that the context menu for bookmark folders has an item to open every link in a new tab.  I wrote my own app to do this for IE years ago.  Very useful if you have a daily list of sites that you like to visit and want to go grab a cup of coffee while the main pages load (this was obviously more important in the days before ubiquitous broadband though it still helps to eliminate a few clicks).

How about the equivalent of IESpell?  I don’t see anything in the extensions list.  Firebird would become my default browser for forums if it had an integrated spellchecker.

Here’s another difference from IE behavior that I don’t like – opening a new window opens to the default page rather than the current page (including the current history). 

Sunday, June 1, 2003

"Here’s another difference from IE behavior that I don’t like – opening a new window opens to the default page rather than the current page."

From the people I've talked to, it's about a 50/50 split on this one. I HATED that IE would try to open a window to the same URL (along with the associated issue of shared session state, which can really screw up some web apps).

Brad Wilson (
Sunday, June 1, 2003

There is an IE Spell equivalent for Mozilla, which can be found somewhere on the MozDev site.

You can change the default page through Preferences. It allows you to set it to the home page, about:blank, or the current page. These can be set independently for new windows, new tabs and on startup.

Rhys Keepence
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Rhys, I know about that.  I meant something different.  To duplicate the behavior I'm talking about, do the following:
1. Open a new instance of the browser.
2. Navigate to
3. Click on the Joel on Software forum link.
4. Press Ctrl+N to open a new browser window.

In IE, this will bring up a new window that loads the Joel on Software forum.  I can then click Back in the new window and go back to  In Firebird, it brings up the default page (I currently have it set to blank).

The Firebird behavior isn't desirable for me since I primarily use Ctrl+N in order to branch off in my current browsing session and use the Quick Launch shortcut to open new blank instances. 

Sunday, June 1, 2003

With tabbed browsing, why would you want to "branch off" into a new window? I find myself using tabs constantly as a replacement for where I used to use new windows in IE.

Brad Wilson (
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Opera has a "duplicate window" function that does this nicely.
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Reasons keeping me from switching from Moz to Firebird:
- Moz mail starts up faster if I already have Moz open
- Favorite Firebird skin has sucky default XP scrollbars, instead of insanely great mile-wide Moz scrollbars.  In other words, you have to move 1 pixel from edge of screen to grab the bar.  This is important because I usually use a laptop without scrollwheel.

Still, Firebird is otherwise far better.  Can't wait for it to be the official release.

anon moz'er
Sunday, June 1, 2003

Good point about using new tabs as a replacement for new windows.  However, the same criticism applies.  Firebird also opens new tabs as blank (using Ctrl+T). 

I tend to use the IE style functionality as the backwards equivalent to opening a link in a new window or tab.  I'll reach a point while navigating where I wish to go back but also to keep the current page open.  Think of it as if the back button had a "Open in new window" option on the context menu. 

Maybe I'm just weird, but I do this a lot!

Sunday, June 1, 2003

I like the way IE handles favorites. For example I have as a favorite with the name "Joel" (Joel.url). So I type in "Joel" (instead of typing "joelonsoftware" and hitting Ctrl+Enter) and it takes me to  Saves me a lot of typing. I didn't see this in FireBird. Correct me if I am wrong.

Monday, June 2, 2003

OK here's my quick impression of this thread.

I keep Opera and IE open all the time. I've noticed that I treat each one differently - they're different pieces of software.

Perhaps y'all are just to ingrained in your way of thinking about how to use browsers and you don't take the strengths/minuses of each browser into mind as you use each browser?

When I'm in Opera, I miss CTRL + TAB to take you to the address bar, but I do like the search Google from the toolbar and the delete cookies on exit.

I know IE copies my current window when I hit CTRL + N. I work around it by launching a new instance of IE.

I think we should be more concerned with standards compliance and when the browser breaks, crashes, loses our data, or otherwise doesn't work.
Monday, June 2, 2003

On Mozilla's keyboard shortcuts

Each platform has its own implementation of the shortcuts and so for the most part they should be the same as previous Netscape versions or possibly IE (Mozilla Firebird looks closer to IE).

Then there's also the copout that because every Mozilla family browser ( is another)  is open source you can change those assignments yourself. 

Simon Lucy
Monday, June 2, 2003

Yaniv, right click on your JoelOnSoftware bookmark and select properties. Type joel as keyword, and you can then use joel in the address bar.

Monday, June 2, 2003

Thanks BC!!
That  was a grat tip :) Works like a charm.

Monday, June 2, 2003

somebody complains that opening new tabs creates blank tabs, when what he really wants is the same page.  I'd argue that that's missing the point of new tabs.  The real trick is to use the right mouse button's context menu to "open link in new tab."  So for instance, if I'm on the Joel On Software forum page, I'll right click any link title that looks interesting, and I'll then have, contained in a single gui window, tabs with every discussion I wanted to look at. 

Another way to consider this is that tabs load in the background, so you can, in effect, bookmark links you are interested in while not disturbing the flow of what you're reading. 

The original poster wanted to know if we recommend it to average users.  In my case, the answer is without hesitation.  I usually recommend moz over firebird, simply because most people I know are also aching to get rid of Outlook Express.  But I've had no qualms (nor any ensuing complaints) about telling friends and relatives to dump IE and use a moz variant.

Monday, June 2, 2003

I've been using Mozilla for a while. Here are my opinions:
- slower to load than IE (I have a slow machine so maybe it shows for me more than others here)
- once started seems faster than IE
- can't switch scripting and other security preferences on/off on a per site basis AFAICS (you can do this in IE, these are those Trusted sites and such that nobody bothers with but me ;-)
- some weshites don't support it properly (images don't load, for example). Fsck 'em, I'll go elsewhere.
- I like it, particularly tabs instead of new windows (though when I click on a link which is designed to open a new window it still does so, which is "kind of" annoying).

That's all folks
Monday, June 2, 2003

Some very nice features, almost enough to make me use it... except it has one deal breaker. The edit windows don't work properly. In many of the forums I visit, you can highlight a section of text, and then click 'italics' and have it insert [i] and [/i] around the bit of highlighted text. Mozilla does not support this.

Mr Jack
Monday, June 2, 2003

I'm using Firebird right now - it's great! I never thought I'd stop using IE, but I think I might.

Here are my problems so far, however:

- Bookmark handling sucks. The bookmark Manager is fine, as it allows one to customize the sorting and such...but it doesn't apply to the normal browser Bookmarks menu. It's horrid having things in non-name order...I can hardly find anything. Pleasantly, however, I've discovered I have thousands of bookmarks...but really only use about 8 on a normal basis, so I just stick them all in the nifty Favorites Bar. Now I have Visual Thesaurus,, Reason, Spinsanity, Number Watch, Joel on Software, and Paul Graham in my lil' bar...and I'm a happy camper.

Still, they really gotta fix this non-sorting bookmark junk.

- I wanted a Go button, but it didn't have it. Then I  just found the Customize (rightclick on the toolbar) thinger, and customized to my hearts content.

I find it superior to replace the useless "Home" button with a "New Tab" button, then put a Go button on either side of the addy bar. I like it!

- I like being able to shift-click windows, such as on Reason, even if they are javascript launched, and have them ignore the stupid ass "don't allow someone to maximize this, kill all toolbars, etc" crap - by god, leave my toolbars and clicky buttons alone! I'll play around and see if I can't figure out how to make that happen.

- Scrolling ain't so smooth as in IE, and I too want my middle mouse button to work properly. I'll try out the extention, as mentioned :)

I think I'll try out some new themes and Extensions as well.

- Oh, silly gripe- doesn't have an icon for the program in the top left or in the windows toolbar, making it hard to instantly recognize what the heck program it is. I hate that.

- Character resizing and font control is a bit hit-or-miss with some sites, but I think that might be the dumb sites fault. I'll play around more and get them to bend to my will. I never realized how important proper readability design was in a don't really appreciate just how important it is until you yourself have trouble reading the damn text on your screen without leaning closer.

I think I'll try out Opera while I'm in a browser switching/testing mood :)

Finally, something actually better than IE! I never had much of a problem with it - save how badly it supported my massive amount of windows browsing behavior, often leading to crashes and great annoyance (I've filled 3+ window toolbars with IE windows...course, then it breaks and you loose all of them) - but these are so customizable and nifty, I'm getting to really like 'em!

As such, I highly reccommend you give Firebird and Opera a try, even if you don't like Nutscrape (I don't), and even if you think IE works perfectly well and good for you.

Monday, June 2, 2003

jburka - you're missing the point of having a 2nd identical window. You can use it to go backwards in too while maintaining your current position.

Though you can work with this by having a history window open too, opera does this nicely also. Just click on link you've been on and as long as it's not form or session dependant, you've travelled back in time.
Monday, June 2, 2003

Plutarck, you're going to like Opera's ability to save sessions.

Monday, June 2, 2003

FireBird is just about ready for prime time. A few more kinks need to be worked out.

It's a crime that Mozilla hasn't been browser-focused until now. It's painfully obvious how much the development of a suite crippled the development of the browser.

Opera should switch to one of the standard renderers (IE, Moz or KHTML) and focus on value add. I don't understand why anyone uses Opera in its current state.

Monday, June 2, 2003

Agreed with Opera proponents above.  Opera has had tabbed browsing, popup stopper (e.g. no more whack a mole), built-in google search, etc. for a long time now.

Certainly I will be sure to give Firebird a try.

Monday, June 2, 2003 and all those desiring "duplication/new window":

I believe I've found a solution to your problem accidentally. Get the extension called "Tabbrowser Extensions". Once installed go back into your option menu, select the extension, then choose Settings. Pop open the pref tree, then select "Context Menu of Tabs". In one of them is listed the option to add "Duplicated Tab" and "Duplicate Tab In New Window" - and in one of those pref menus you can add the option to keep that tab menu always open, should you like.

I've never used such behavior, so I don't know if it's exactly what you want, but should be worth a try.

Myself, I got a bunch of extensions, and they are so COOL! In fact, I think most of the problems I was having have been solved, except for more needed options for customizing allowed javascript, and fonts are still a bit clunky.

Here's what I have now:

User Agent Switcher (just in case you need it)
Mouse Gestures
Autoscroll (yay!)
Nuke Image
Preferential (I love preferences)
SmoothWheel (fixes the jerky scrolling! yay!)
Tabbrowser Extensions
Tabbrowser Preferences (did I mention I love preferences)
Text Links (nifty! lets you use right-click to treat non-hyperlink addys like hyperlinks)
mozilla google toolbar (haven't tried search out yet at all)


Now they just have to fix bookmarks and such. This is great fun.

And now, time to play with Themes! I almost want to upgrade to Windows XP just so I can buy ObjectDesktop and do this kind of thing with Windows itself!

Monday, June 2, 2003

I just installed Firebird and it simply freezes and crashes on startup, trying to resolve and never succeeding.. :-(

Monday, June 2, 2003

As Firebird is still in an early development stage there can be problems on some systems, although the majority of its users report that it's working great. If you run into problems try using an older build. The 0.6 milestone is very stable, and one of the last widely-used and very stable builds before that was the 2003-03-20 nightly build.

Monday, June 2, 2003

If you like preferences, try typing "about:config" in the address bar. It gives you a few hundred more options. You can edit them by double clicking. The bold values are non-default.

And while we're all mentioning our favorite tweaks:
You can set animated images to loop only once in the preferences, combine that with the Flash/plugins zapper bookmarklet and you will never have to look at those dynamically distracting pages again. Personally I put the "zap plugins" bookmark on my Links bar. Now if I could only add keyboard shortcuts to bookmarks...

Jan Derk
Monday, June 2, 2003

> like the way IE handles favorites. For example I have as a favorite with the name "Joel" (Joel.url). So I type in "Joel" (instead of typing "joelonsoftware" and hitting Ctrl+Enter) and it takes me to  Saves me a lot of typing. I didn't see this in FireBird. Correct me if I am wrong.

Yeah, this is easy to do in firebird Open the bookmarks manager on the bookmarks menu, select the bookmark you want to use in a short way.
click properties and type the keyword you want eg. joel
then typing joel in the address bar will take you straight there

Monday, June 2, 2003

So far, very impressed with Firebird.  I love the tabs.  Often, I will be testing my apps on different servers and this saves having to fill up my screen with windows.

My only gripe is poor image rendering.  For example, JOS images are really grainy in Firebird but not so in IE.  This isn't a big deal for people who use the Web for content, but sales and marketing types would find it unacceptable (a word I hear A LOT from them).  That's one reason why I think it is a ways off from being in the mainstream.  It sad but true, people like pretty stuff.

I'm off to mess with Opera :)

Monday, June 2, 2003

I don't notice a difference in image quality and there shouldn't be one. Sounds like a problem specific to your computer.

I wouldn't touch Opera if paid.

Monday, June 2, 2003

Images look perfect on every version of Mozilla and kin I've used.  It must be a specific problem with your system (or maybe the site is doing browser sniffing).

In fact, non-IE browsers support alpha-PNG well, which marketing types should be pissing themselves over if they had the chance to use it.

Richard Ponton
Monday, June 2, 2003

Well, if it's a problem with my system then why would it render ok in IE.  In addition, I just downloaded Opera and the graphics rendering is much better.  I don't know what that means.  Why png?  What can you do with that format that you can't with .jpg, .gif, .pdf, etc?

Monday, June 2, 2003

Let me clarify...I don't have a problem with Opera until it spews horizontal lines across the screen and I have to shut it down and start again.  That shouldn't be too hard to get used to *shudder*.

Monday, June 2, 2003

png can do vector graphics.

Geeze... That sounds like a nasty thing to have happen to you. Opera crashes on me every once in a while, but not often and not like that.
Monday, June 2, 2003

It happens every time I minimize the window. :(

Monday, June 2, 2003


how do you know it's opera and not windows?
Monday, June 2, 2003

"I don't have a problem with Opera until it spews horizontal lines "

Sounds like a video driver problem - have you checked to see if you're running the latest version?

Monday, June 2, 2003

How seriously am I going to take Firebird when the "Known Issues" section contains something like this gem?

* Form auto-complete is still an unstable feature and may lead to crashes.

* Disabling of form auto-completion is not working.

IE is the only browser on Windoze, and will remain so until someone other than Microsatan decides to do a bit of usability testing.

Eric T F Bat
Monday, June 2, 2003

Now that they're sort of focusing on the browser, Mozilla has a shot at making in-roads. The decision to develop a suite 5 years ago was criminally bad and nearly fatal.

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

Why png?  What can you do with that format that you can't with .jpg, .gif, .pdf, etc?

Gifs are limited to 256 colors, on/off transparency and suffer from licensing issues.

Jpeg's are nice for photos, but uses lossy compression making it a bad choice for graphical type images.

Png is highly superior as it supports virtually unlimited color depths, full alpha channel and lossless compression.

It's a shame that IE for windows does not support PNG images properly.

Jan Derk
Tuesday, June 3, 2003

pb, I'm curious, why do you have such a downer on Opera?

John Topley
Tuesday, June 3, 2003

> IE is the only browser on Windoze, and will remain so
> until someone other than Microsatan decides to do a bit
> of usability testing.

Some (myself included) might disagree.

My first browser is Opera, and, thanks to Joel, I'm trying out Firebird.

IE is my last resort, not because it's better or more stable (actually, every time I close it on my Win2K laptop, it crashes), but because some "enlightened souls" out there decided that their site should only work with IE.

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, June 3, 2003

Mozilla is good browser.

If you installing it to your clients see "CCK" (client customization kit).  That will alow you to create custom installtion file with all needed add-ons included. With default settings you like and even with your own logos.

From mozdev - see Optimoz/Gestues, LiveHttpHeaders, Total Recover

From Xulplanet - Preference toolbar

Loot at
You could use CCK to include these usefull tools (those are JavaScript utils, which could be bookmarked as orddinary URLs) into install.

And... You really should write some paper for your clients about all cool features of Mozilla :)

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

That's all folks sez: "- some weshites don't support it (Mozilla) properly (images don't load, for example). Fsck 'em, I'll go elsewhere."

IE tends to be forgiving of poorly authored HTML, so people who write things like "images\foo.jpg" and test it in IE only think that all is good... When in double, validate the HTML, if it doesn't validate, well, that's most likely the problem...

What those sites really aren't supporting are the recommended standards of the W3C.

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

I found one annoying problem and insufficiency in Firebird/mozilla, and it means I have to still use IE on occassion, and that sorta sucks. Two things, actually:

1: Printing. IE has the context menu choice to "Print", which will print only that page and frame where you click in. I need this to print my bank records without having to print the stupid colored buttons and background and such that my bank's statement page has.

Further, if you choose "Print" from the file menu or such, IE gives you options about frames, such as to print only the active frame, or all frames, etc. In short, IE really wins in the Print customization department.

2: Windows Favorites, and in short Bookmarks as a whole. There needs to be a choice to rather than merely important bookmarks, to actually USE IEs bookmarks natively, and use the windows Favorites folders and such which are already integrated into windows in many ways.

With those I would have trouble thinking of anything about Firebird which isn't easily customized that is a problem.

Tuesday, June 3, 2003

*FB continues dropped FTP downloads
*shortcuts - *CTL --* for reducing screen text
*uses less memory (compared to MOZ + mail client )

peter renshaw
Tuesday, June 3, 2003

"2: Windows Favorites, and in short Bookmarks as a whole. There needs to be a choice to rather than merely important bookmarks, to actually USE IEs bookmarks natively, and use the windows Favorites folders and such which are already integrated into windows in many ways."

Yes, that's the reason why I prefer NetCaptor to Firebird. Importing bookmarks back and forth when you add/delete/reorganize them is just too much of a pain.

Why is it so impossible for 3rd party browsers to directly use IE bookmarks? It's not as if those .url files were in some encrypted secret format...

Chris Nahr
Wednesday, June 4, 2003

One neat feature about the Mozilla bookmarks is the ability to use replacement strings. E.g., create a bookmark with keyword "imdb" and as URL. Then type, say, "imdb the hulk" in the address bar to search for The Hulk movie (and so on) ...

Friday, June 6, 2003

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