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Did any one check out the latest Mozilla. Its pretty cooool.
It does actually render faster than IE. Although IE remains
my Fav Browser for the fact that it supports so much more
in terms of programming. Mozilla still does not display IE specfic authored pages, like the drop down menus on Microsoft's own website. But I am really excited about the speed of rendering in Mozilla and also there is this quirky refresh problem in all other browsers that is eliminated in
Mozilla, is when a user submits some information through a form to the server and returns to the same page, all other browsers would refresh the whole page , whereas Mozilla just
refreshes the part that has changed. One could do that in IE
using the download behavior ( or something like that ) plus
some javascript. But then built in support for such a behaviour in Mozilla is the way to go. So looks like 4 yrs of work is showing in some fruits.
Let me in with your opinion about Mozilla and its comparisons with IE and its own sibling Netscape.
Do you think Mozilla will regain some of Netscape's lost glory?
Will IE be soon displaced by this dragon ??
Shoot in ....

Thursday, June 6, 2002

>Mozilla still does not display IE specfic authored pages, like the drop down menus on Microsoft's own website.

This is hardly Mozilla's fault. Web pages can be created, easily, that conform to only one browser.

IE on my Mac doesn't run ActiveX controls. I don't blame Apple for this.

spiny norman
Thursday, June 6, 2002

It shame it doesn't support XSL stylesheets.  From a programming point of view they offer some great opportunities.

Ged Byrne
Friday, June 7, 2002

they say its fast but i downloaded a pre-release and my hand pained clicking thru slowly refreshing UI. probably because the ui is generated using the scripting language to make it cross-platform.  i like fast software. is the final release fast?

the tabbed interface so widely praised is better implemented in netcaptor (probably lifted from it). this is the browser i use. it uses the IE html engine and fast.

i would love to use mozilla but wanna know how fast it really is?


Friday, June 7, 2002

Damn fast. Give it a try. I now only use IE to read hebrew, which IS well supported by Netscape, but unfortunately too many web designers use IE's nonstandard features.

And don't forget that it also filters annoying pop-up and pop-under ads, without harming popups you want (Have been using it for several months now, ever they introduced the feature, and not once did it block a new window I wanted to see).

It also doubles up as excellent mail and newsgroup software. Works perfectly, immune to all the outlook viruses, does news (and does it well, which can't be said of Outlook Express, or at all which can't be said of Outlook). It's not equivalent to Outlook though - it doesn't do calendar (which most people use), tasks (which I've noticed a few people use) or journals (which it seems no people I know use).

Give it a try again. It isn't perfect, but it's getting there at respectable speed recently.

Ori Berger
Friday, June 7, 2002

Also, the pre-release versions of Moz had debugging information included in the build - I assume the release version has this stripped out. That alone should give a nice speedup.

Friday, June 7, 2002

There are plenty of quirks still, so if in doubt keep using IE.

What I like about Mozilla:

-- Tabbed browsing --
No more 10 windows open.

-- Gestures --

-- Security --
Much less likely to get hit by whatever new virus there is for IE or outlook.

-- Search bookmarks --
Very nice if you have loads of them.

-- Bookmark keywords --
Just give the google bookmark "google" as keyword. Typing google in the location bar will bring you there. Off course I am lazy and assigned "g" as google keyword.

Take make it even cooler you can enter an argument. I got the following bookmark with "d" from dictionary as keyword:


Note the %s. Now I can type "d joel" in the location bar and it will show the joel dictionary entry in Merriam-Webster online dictionary explaining that Joel is also the author of the book of Joel.

Once you get used to this one, you're lost...

-- Popup killer --
No more nasty popup/under/whatever. You can also switch of allowing sites to move or resize windows.

What I don't like:

- A bit slow to startup (but loads pages faster than IE).
- Uses a lot of memory.
- Some web sites follow the MS IE standard instead of W3 and might render badly.
- Printing frames and selected text is better in IE.

Jan Derk
Friday, June 7, 2002

Oh and (totally irrelevant I know, but for those who like to look at nice things) get the Orbit skin:

Jan Derk
Friday, June 7, 2002

I never use IE for browsing external pages, since it supports an insane number of trivial exploits, some of which have hit me.  That leaves Moz and Opera.

Opera is nice, but far too crashy, especially with the huge number of open tabs I'm accustomed to.  It might be sensible to take the Moz codebase and extend it.

Moz 1.0 is stable and fast, even noticably more so than the earlier 1.0rc3.  I can easily use Flash and Java, if I want them to run.  The only thing missing I can think of offhand I want, is to press ctrl-backspace to delete a word of text from these little textboxes.  Also I like to select text at random while reading, and it's not quite as satisfying under Moz as IE.

Friday, June 7, 2002

If you want to add mouse gestures to windows in general (incl. IE) then check out:

I've been playing with it for a couple of days and it is great.  It so much easier to navigate with a quick movement of the mouse than having to hit a particular button.

Friday, June 7, 2002

One thing which is also important is that with Moz1.0  the apis have been frozen.  THis means that there is a cross platform development environment for user interface.  XUL (pronounced Zool, as in Boss of Gozer the Gozarian, summoner of the Staypuft marshamallow man...) is the XML User-interface Language that is used to define the UI in Mozilla.  This plus XPCOM (A Cross platform Version of COM developed also for Mozilla)  are the buil;ding blocks of Mozilla. 

If you are contemplating building a UI that you need to be cross platform, Mozilla may be basis for it.  Now I am a Java-phile, but I'll be the first to rag on Swing.  The interesting thing about The mozilla solution is that it is based on xml, css and javascript.  So if you want to leverage the investment in web design languages, you can start making desktop applications.  Just a thought

Friday, June 7, 2002

I absolutely love it. I used to loathe it as a browser, but the latests releases have been very good quality software. And as the project evolved I realised that Mozilla isn't just a browser. There's a whole development platform under the hood.

Considering how complicated the software is, I am VERY impressed by its ability to perform at good speed. It's size is also VERY impressive. Considering that it's not just a browser but a whole OS independant development platform, at barely 13 megs.

If you are a windows user, and you enable the Quickstart mechanism you get startup times akin to those of IE, and the Quickstart takes about 14 megs of RAM. You might argue that IE doesn't take that much, but think about how much of IE is deeply embedded in windows (graphical shell), and how much does windows take up with no tasks running at all. You do the math, I'm sure the memory consumption of Mozilla suddenly doesn't look that bad.

XUL is a thing of beauty, and just for the sake of experimenting with it I am toying around with the idea of making a content management tool for a portal I run on my free time, entirely in XUL.

It comes with a wealth of tools for client-side web developers, such as a DOM viewer ECMAScript debugger, ECMAScript console and Java console.

And the fact that it uses a cross platform widget set of its own, makes it render pages the same, down to the pixel on every platform it supports.

One can say whatever she likes about how long Mozilla took to write and how it represents Netscape's failure. I don't deny any of that. But what one cannot deny is that Mozilla is a browser done the way a browser should be done.

Beka Pantone
Friday, June 7, 2002

Makes IE look very slow on my Apple PowerBook.
Was very sceptical before, but might become a regular user, espescially if they implement HTMLArea or ContentEditable like IE has.

Jake Grimley
Saturday, June 8, 2002

I wonder if Joel would change his mind aout Mozilla and Netscape.
Both are going to pick up client share, specially when netscape becomes the default browser for AOL. I think the re-write was an excellent idea and after 4 years we have an excellent browser.
Mozilla 1.0 is much better than IE for many reasons but 1.2 would leave the competition behind.
Mozilla 1.2 would prove joel wrong and open up his shut brain to open source and real software engineering

Sunday, June 9, 2002

Mozilla 1.2 would prove joel wrong and open up his shut brain to open source and real software engineering
-------------------------------------------------------------------- j r

Joels arguments against Open Source is that there's no profit in it.  It doesn't matter how good Mozilla gets, the economics don't change. 

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, June 11, 2002

<< (Have been using it for several months now, ever they introduced the [pop up blocking] feature, and not once did it block a new window I wanted to see). >>

How do you know? :)

Steven Wisener
Tuesday, June 11, 2002

Who knows if Moz 1.2 will make it out the door, much less blow anything away. Joel's point is that had they *not* re-wrote, they would have been finished 3 years ago and it would already be included in the AOL client and we may still have had a two browser race.

Tuesday, June 11, 2002

I was not aware that Joel said anything "against" Open Source.

Nat Ersoz
Tuesday, June 11, 2002

pb is right. Joel points that Netscape Corp. lost the "browsers war" and make it worse when they deciding rewrite everything from scratch.

Perhaps a better aproach would have been keep the development of their propietary Netscape along with the open source Mozilla. Not sure if they could have afford it, thought.

Now the old browser war is gone, and IE was the winner. But Mozilla is a "new player" now.

I use almost exclusively Mozilla (if they launch a good DHTMLEditor then I'm sold) so, to my eyes, it's the new winner. Still a couple of bugs, thought.

Leonardo Herrera
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

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