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Sun, McNealy and Java

Did anyone read about or hear Scott McNealy's "I need your help. Mankind needs your help..." spiel at JavaOne.

I havent heard a more compelling argument for jumping on the .Net bandwagon than this rubbish.

If Sun are truly committed to safeguarding open APIs and standards they should have handed Java over to ISO a loooong time ago. They should have aggressively developed the technology and collaborated with people like the Apache organisation.

Sun's worst enemy is Sun. Even Microsoft cant compete with them on that front.

Tuesday, March 26, 2002

Do you have a link to the McNealy stuff ?

James Ladd
Tuesday, March 26, 2002

"If Sun are truly committed to safeguarding open APIs and standards they should have handed Java over to ISO a loooong time ago."

Please, God no. I can't think of a better way to kill Java than to bog it down into a standards body and watch all the different vendors bicker it into immobility. Java's too young to be entombed by ISO quite yet.

Standards are for mature products that expect to evolve slowly, or for academic projects, or for products where the vendors don't care what the standards body says and just do their own thing. They just don't move fast enough to keep up with marketplace realities.

For something that's "Not Open", it's interesting to see that the biggest vendors of Java application servers are not Sun, the biggest vendors of Java development environments are not Sun.

"They should have aggressively developed the technology and collaborated with people like the Apache organisation."

Sun (and other Java vendors such as IBM) regularly contribute large bodies of code to Apache's Jakarta and XML projects. Apache maintains the reference implementations of the Servlet and JAXP specifications, and Apache produces an awful lot of very useful free code.

Sun are, at Apache's request, modifying the Java standards process (JCP) to ensure that Open Source implementations of all Java standards can be created.

I can think of few technologies more aggressively developed than Java. It's still only seven years old, now it's ubiquitous, and has an enormous base of libraries and many vendors of servers and development tools.

Charles Miller
Tuesday, March 26, 2002

"I havent heard a more compelling argument for jumping on the .Net bandwagon than this rubbish."

Two rather snide responses come to mind:

Does Joel have an article about not choosing tools/platforms based on whether or not you think the CEO is a big dummy-head, as opposed to the actual merits?


Guess the .Net technology itself isn't that convincing.

Tuesday, March 26, 2002

Nooo. Don't develop my sense of humor.

I wonder if Joel has an article on stealing other people's sense of humor.

<cheek><tongue /></ cheek>

Mark W
Tuesday, March 26, 2002

If anyone wants to see the depths of unpleasantness and childishness that discussions of this topic can lead to, I suggest they take a look at, where Google recently deposited me, in its infinite wisdom. I would personally vote to leave the children to squabble there, and keep this forum for the grown-ups.

Andrew Simmons
Tuesday, March 26, 2002

Please, God no. I can't think of a better way to kill this forum than to bog it down in discussions about Java and standards bodies.

Anyone needing a bi-weekly fix for this sort of thing should visit JavaLobby.

Timothy Falconer
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

i don't like people who argue we should pick their position to be against Microsoft.  their product should stand on its own.

Razib Khan
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

Hear Hear, Razib. If the best thing anyone can say about the product they are selling is that "at least it's not from THAT LOT over there!" then they probably don't have a good product, imho.

Robert Moir
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

>i don't like people who argue we should pick
>their position to be against Microsoft.

What's the difference between them and those that make decisions just to be WITH Microsoft?

At my last job we had a mix of Delphi and VB apps.  VB was used by the junior developers and co-op students to do some simple "list ticking" apps and a bit of OLE exchange between MS Office while our industrial-strength computation-intensive apps were all Delphi.  One day our new CIO announced with great fanfare that we would henceforth be a "Microsoft-only" shop, and standardise on VB.  All existing apps would converted ASAP.

Naturally our group freaked at the prospect of converting thousands of proven, working LOC to satisfy some whim of a new "bungie boss".  The reason for the change?  He had been reading a "Learn VB in 24 Hours" (or whatever) for a couple of weeks and was amazed at how easy the language was to pick up.  By golly he was popping MsgBox'es all over the place.  His crowning achievment?  He was actually able to (gasp) populate a menu list of font names that displayed in the font which they were named for!

>If the best thing anyone can say about the product
>they are selling is that "at least it's not from THAT LOT
>over there!

On the flip side of that coin, I've seen people say "Well that's one of the greates tools I've ever seen, but I won't buy it simply because it is from that lot over there"  (Borland).

No religious war intended, but I wish more people would realise that there are some great non-MS tools out there.

Wednesday, March 27, 2002

Big companies consider programmers to be consumers.  Sun wants to sell us something.  They make money by telling programmers that Java is a great silver bullet.  Microsoft does the same.

And the main confusion is that it's not 100% marketing.  There are good ideas behind Java, so people can say, "But it's a clean, garbage-collected language, and it really is almost cross-platform!  So you're just being cynical!"

But when you look at what Sun does behind our backs, like trying to strange FreeBSD because it's a huge competitor to Solaris, then you realize that Sun is really no different from Microsoft, except that it's not quite as successful.  People who work there complain of the massive red tape that pervades everything.  Sun acts nastily until there's a big CNet/Slashdot article that riles people up, then they tiptoe back.

I develop a lot for Java, but I will definitely switch to Mono, the free implementation of .NET.

Art Vandelay
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

Here's a link about McNealy's speech:

"McNealy: Don't let Microsoft steal the Net"

btw, when did become That is the stupidest thing I've seen in a long time. What is this, 1999 or something? ;)

Banana Fred
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

i'm NOT a MS person myself.  i use Java & Perl mostly in my everyday life.  but i don't develop GUI apps.  use the tools best suited to the task.  i know some Perlists who won't touch Java because it's too "corporate."  who cares?  Perl became big 'cuz it's good at what it does-Larry Wall didn't need to say "It's not VB, it's not VB!".  granted, companies that declare by fiat from above only to use MS products are dumb.  but i'll let the free market take care of that.  if they want to do everything in VB, let them eat cake. 

i'm just tired of my open-source buddies dissing me when they see i have a VB or .NET book on my bookshelf.

Razib Khan
Wednesday, March 27, 2002

I like Java, and I like open source.  I realize that there is a minor problem with that statment, in that there is no true open source implmentation of Java that has the classpath, compiler, and JVM up to 1.2 level.  I'd love to contribute (aha, that is my answer for the what would I be programming thread...or is it something in open GL?  argh)

I have dont MS based programming in the past, and don't plan on doing any more in the future.  It Just doen't make sense.  I don't like a single point of failure in anything I do.  With Open Source, I don't have to worry about a company folding, or cahnging an API without being able to use the old version.  Or figure out what is happening.  Yes, I run opn the edge.  Yes, my project uses the nightly build of Struts. 

I use Java and JBoss becasue it best solves the problems I am trying to solve.  I use Linux because I can leverage all the years of Unix from College ( a long time ago now).  I don't do UI programming, becasue the Web is MY UI (OK, so I have to tweak HTML)

My feeling of MS?  They do things just well enoough.  I'd rather not be stuck with them.  But it is not just MS.  I'd rather not be stuck with anybody.  I don't feel that by using Java I am stuck with Sun.  JBoss is not even J2EE certified and I don't care.  As the little guy, I can play Sun off against IBM in the JDK wars, and get a decent JDK to do what I need.  In the not too distant future, I will ;probably be able to use GCC and GNU Classpath to run my Java Apps. 

The funy thing is, for an IDE, I use IDEA from Intellij.  Why...for the same reasons that people buy City Desk, I guess.  I works.  Well.  IT has built in support for refacoring, implemnting interface methods, CVS, jumping from references to declations.  Did I mention refactroing support?  Granted I use it priamry for rename or extractr method...but that alone is worth it.

What else do I like about Java?  The EJB spec.  Yes, servlets and JSPs are fine too, but EJBs seem to be treading that difficult tightrope between being scalable and being easy to use (erring on the side of scalable).  Yeah, I've seen MTX, and DCOM.  Diferent issues, really.

Damn this is rambling...anyway.  TO Sum up:  I like Java, I don't rear Sun.  They've been a decent steward of the Java language.  Not perfect, but decent.  I works well in a Linux/Unix environment, and that is what I want for an OS.


Tuesday, April 2, 2002

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