Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board

Foreigners programming causing me problems

I have worked in several Bangalore software firms for now almost 15 years.  I dutifully provide for my wife and 2 beautiful daughters, and life was going along until now. 

Then, foreigners are setting up programming sweat shops in some African and Pacific countries, and now undercutting and stealing our work!  Some of places charge less than half of our firm, for working for US clients, and there is facing pressure to reduce rates or lose the work! 

Becuase of the cheaper competition, our place has let go 7 of 24 developers this year, and the survivors must take up the pace....What am I to do?  I am in a rock and hard place now, all becuase of these foreigners taking work from us by charging less. 

It is not fair, they can charge less becuase their living cost is so much lower than here in Bangalore.  I have bills and expenses to pay?  I would not devoted my career to this programming were I to know this would happen.  If the bosses reduce our pay, I will lose my apartment.  Where to go then?  I have no other job skills, and have large monthly expenses to account for.

-Sanjay Prakash Guntalab

Sanjay Prakash Guntalab
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Sanjay Prakash Guntalab:

Don't feel so self conscious...  We american's tend to AIR our dirty laundry in the open[open letters, debates, etc...]
The process helps to correct issues that might otherwise threaten the state of the union.  Call it growing pains.

But we adapt and will continue to grow despite bone head decisions by some of our political elite.

If 1million americans invaded India today... local chaps would clearly have an issue with this.  Even worse if these invading "guest workers", are given preferential treatment with respect to employment prospects, the locals would be making more than a little noise.[I believe the tradition in India is something like a sorched earth policy(riots, mamings, killings and other such fanatical convulsions) ].

So on behalf of the more civilized among us Lazy Americans,
please don't mind us.

Ollie Cromwell, XI
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Sanjay Prakash Guntalab:
Have you tried India? I hear they're hiring web experts.
How about China or Afghanistan? Those places will be less of a commute for you.

Lazy Canuk
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Lazy Canuk(assuming you're canadian),
You Canadians are very Racist!!

Vijay Rao
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Canada isn't racist!
It's just classist!

Certainly beats having a H1B / GreenCard system with INS people locking everyone up cause they extend their stay for a few hours.


Lazy Canuk
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Yeah sure whatever tuna breath:

Vijay Rao
Sunday, July 7, 2002


You are obviously a jealous American no-talent, who doesn't realize that many Indian coders deliver better "bang for the buck" than Americans.

You see, Indians speak much better English than the coders in most "African and Pacific countries." Frankly, the best ones speak better English than some of the slacker Americans. Yes, I could get a coder in Rwanda to work for $5/hour less than in Bangalore, but I'd need to spend more than that $5 to remedy the communication barrier.

Your final paragraph is the accurate lament of an American loser, not a skilled professional from Bangalore. It's pathetic, but mostly it's just laughable.

Have you learned how to work the french-fry machine yet?

Sunday, July 7, 2002

I can't believe people are actually replying to this troll ! It's so bloody obvious, or is it?

Kill this thread now, chaps. This is as good as flamebait gets.

Sunday, July 7, 2002

Protectionsim in the ugliest form.

Sam Wong
Sunday, July 7, 2002

A point you need to realize is that now bona-fide naturalized or native US citizens are without jobs. And you cost more than any of us, despite your talents. Hard fact: you leave now so Americans can have jobs.
Not being mean, just telling it like it is, and the way it should be. We're without jobs, time for you to go home.

Meek Observer
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Immigrants have always taken jobs from current US residents because they are willing to work for less. Why did you choose a career than anyone from a third-world country can learn?

Just Surfing Through
Sunday, July 7, 2002

They aren't immigrants, you stupid idiot.
They are guest workers. At least try to get the terminology correct.

The Coach
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Why do software developers think their skills are somehow special? You have simply learned another language. Your salary should be the same as anyone else who happens to be bi-lingual.

como Esta?
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Americans don't have the skills to pay the bills. they are lazy and greedy.
an H1B can get the same job done better, cheaper, and with a lot less bitching.
adapt or get fucked

The Planet
Sunday, July 7, 2002

I vote for ending this program. The Silicon Valley economy is hurting enough. Why should greedy tech companies be allowed to import these drones who work for cheap? They would be forced to hire back talented American citizens. Doesn't anyone remember the recent posts about the people at Sun who were laid off, while the H-1Bs got to keep their jobs? Buy them a one-way ticket home......

Half Moon Bay
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Sorry Prakash... nothing personal

Half Moon Bay
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Half Moon Bay,
Companies would be forced to relocate overseas. The moronic "entitlement" mentality displayed by poorly-schooled young Americans goes a long way to illustrate why the H1-B program is a good idea.

Attorney in Training
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Any of these American workers who thinks himself so "talented" has the right to start his own business, and reap the profits from doing so. If he can't handle that, then maybe he's not as talented as he thinks he is.

If a rival company is wasting money on Mercedes-owning managers, then surely a talented young American can do a better job and undercut its pricing, right?

Voice of Reason
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Hate to rain on the parade, but the word from those who make money shopping outsourced programming in India and elsewhere is that tech blows everywhere.
Too much spending on W2K, telecom, and dotcoms, in the 1998-2001 time frame. Now comes the hangover.

The second problem is this: 70% of major corporate it projects fail. This is beginning to piss off the folks who write the checks for this crap. If 70% of your spending on tech goes right down the shitter, you might as well hire cheaper folks to do the flushing with.

Third, signs of the apocalypse are actually a positive. When everyone says there are no tech jobs, the bottom will have been reached.

MBA in Training
Sunday, July 7, 2002

I know this is probably flamebait, but here is some free education. Software development isn't just speaking another language, it's the application of higher mathematics algorithms to computer programming. It's the logistics of documentation, client communication, and maintaining a team dynamic. It's understanding the limitations of the system you work in, and understanding the limitations of the new system you design. It's putting your blood, sweat, and tears into every line of code you type into vim.

When I hacked a VB program to catalog and archive my warez collection, I wasn't writing an essay in Spanish, I was making my likeness in VB. That thing was my fucking baby, and I treated it as such. Even though it took me all of 30 minutes to code and test the thing, I treated it like an inlaw because I put my HEART AND SOUL into it.

Muy Bien
Sunday, July 7, 2002

Look everyone cool it!!!
this is globalisation
i though the liberal thinks that american are exploiting third world country (india) for their cheap wages, it turns out that it is india who is the winner

Things happen

Micheal Blanc
Sunday, July 7, 2002

So if Indian's are so brilliant, what's this crap?  Indians are racists?  Oh man!!!

Prakash... no sympathy here.

Lazy American
Sunday, July 7, 2002

find out the answer to this:  what % of american consumer goods purchased in america are actually made in america?

but its fine unless its your industry, right?

programmers in india are not better, or worse, than american ones. just cheaper.

H1B programmers are not better, or worse, than american ones. just cheaper.

compete or die.

<g> or, compete and die....that happens as well.

life is like that
Sunday, July 7, 2002

M-o-v-e    t-o    E-u-r-o-p-e

We are cool.

Beka Pantone
Sunday, July 7, 2002

not for long baby....i'm arriving..

indian programmer
Monday, July 8, 2002

The great thing about this thread is only 1/3 of the posts are even remotly serious, yet some are taking major offense to some of them.  I've said it what if there are now 100,000 crappy programmers willing to work for dirt.  It wasn't any different when a buncha kids started programming.  If your a very good programmer, you'll get a good job.  The only people h1bs are hurting seem to be crappy american programmers who have been managing 50-60k slapping together some vb. 

Vincent Marquez
Monday, July 8, 2002

try explaining that to some of the 17000 engineers etc...,currently being laidoff at WorldCOM.

Another example of bad/unethical corporate governance gone terribly wrong.  These are the very same decision makers that are relocating living wage employment to third world countries, the locals be damed.

The only crime these people[lazy americans] commited was working their arses off, creating a good company in the process, only to have it cherry picked by a few people at the top.

The problem is moral integrity still matters in business.  If you disagree, try visiting a few of these "offshore locations",  India[corporate and individual corruption is so rampant]

"crappy american programmers who have been managing 50-60k slapping together some vb.

Vincent Marquez"

Truth Be Told
Monday, July 8, 2002


Matt Christensen
Monday, July 8, 2002

"Companies would be forced to relocate overseas."

What a load of rotting feces.

Time to call this bluff dumbshit.

You think they have a stock market in Pissantopia that can raise the cash they need to do development work? Sales and Marketing? Attend trade shows?

Or perhaps you think Pissantopia is a hotbed of venture capital?

Without these things good luck getting your hot new idea capitalized.

You are a retard.

In Pissantopia, your company can't make a dime unless your executives have family connections in government and enough cash to make the payola payroll. Bribery, corruption, ineptitude. That's the game that's played in the overseas arena that these companies keep threatening to relocate to.

And they game that's played here is the same played by every third rate piece of shit baseball team like the San Diego Padres starts to cry to momma they gotta have a new stadium or they'd leave town. So the dumbshit politicians fall all over themselves to raise taxes to build some 'world class' stadium so the 500 people that attend their crappy games can have a new place to drive to.

If Microsoft wants to relocate to Pissantopia, let them.
If Intel wants to relocate to Pissantopia, let them.
If HP wants to relocate to Pissantopia, let them.
If Sun wants to relocate to Pissantopia, let them.
Hell, we'll even pay the airface for their dumbshit CEO.

Pissantopia is a muddy dump and the people like in squalor and grass huts. Go ahead and relocate your high tech corporration there. It won't bother me a bit and I'd be glad to see you leave.

Here's a fact for you to nail into your puny little head: Only the US has what it takes to allow these companies to succeed.

And about this fear you coders have of the superior mental abilities of the Pissantopians? It's the biggest bill of goods you've been sold. Just look at the patents held by Pissantopians to see what I mean. They are total dumbshits and the world's biggest liars. Don't let them fuck you up the ass with their bullshit.

Attorney in Practice
Monday, July 8, 2002

Insanity of the Times

Monday, July 8, 2002

If you can't compete with the labor, employ it.

I will start a software company using overseas skills exclusively. Maybe it will be like that dot com thing (remember that?). All you have to do is open shop and say that you are "leveraging favorable global resource rates" and the VCs will try to drown you in cash. No business plan. You could lose money everyday but at those rates you could make it up in volume ;-)

Monday, July 8, 2002


Monday, July 8, 2002

"Only the US has what it takes to allow these companies to succeed"

/me wets himself with laughing so much

uh huh
Tuesday, July 9, 2002

"And about this fear you coders have of the superior mental abilities of the Pissantopians? It's the biggest bill of goods you've been sold. Just look at the patents held by Pissantopians to see what I mean. They are total dumbshits and the world's biggest liars. Don't let them fuck you up the ass with their bullshit. "

Dear Troll, I believe you are totally missing the point of why companies contract workers in foreign countries. See, at this date, there is no study that demonstrate the "superior mental abilities" of any race, nor country. Hitler tried very hard to do so, and you know the rest. Companies do contract foreign people because they are _cheap_ and competent enough of bring products of similar quality to those produced in their countries. And Pissantopians aren't dumbshit liars just because they don't hold any patent.

Leonardo Herrera
Tuesday, July 9, 2002

Not that I agree, but this is a study
Tuesday, July 9, 2002

Foreigners are causing me problems too. With so many countries competeing for my SW development dollar, I'm having trouble making choices. Right now it's India,China, that order. But things are changing fast so I think I should diversify across at least 2 countries.

Such trouble them foreigners.

Tuesday, July 9, 2002

I wondered how much time would pass before somebody pointed me with The Bell Curve. Sigh.

A word of advice: specialize, and shot for upper management, if you want to maintain your lifestyle.

Leonardo Herrera
Wednesday, July 10, 2002


Ya, Chile's average IQ estimated at 93:

That's great for South America. You guys are doing great down there. Keep up the good work.

Sarain H.
Wednesday, July 10, 2002

How could our government and our president let this kind of bullcrap take place? Sold the US people out.
What a big mess. To have a few losers ruin what it has taken our fathers and grandfathers many many years to bulid is destroy.
I am sick of hearing people say the Americans don't want these or those jobs.
Hell yes we want our jobs.
My husband went back to school and got his degree in computers and it cost him well over $20,000 to do this.
For what? Where's the job at?
Now after paying this amount of money out someone wants him to work for low wages like under $6.60 an hour.
Heck this pay wouldn't even pay the school bill every month.
How can Americans be expected to take less money for wages when the cost of living is so high in American?
Greedy Americans? No it is the rich man at the top who has became greedy and charged top dollar for his products.
Like Levi's company for Instance it has moved to another Country now but today the jeans in I went into JC PENNY'S and the prices were higher.
I won't buy Levi's ever again.
They sold the Americans out and so are many other companies.
I don't want people from India knowing my business. Nor do I want the Americans business being known in another Country.
You know where America made it mistakes at?
Our government let all the people from different Countries come here and learn for free and when finished they go back home with their knowledge.
All for free....
We Americans have to pay for our schooling In America.
The Mexicans right now are coming over by the truck loads and taking what little jobs their are left.
They will get free schooling and housing and don't even have to pay taxes. They use our roads and everything else but WE AMERICANS must pay for their way.
I think all Americans must stand up now and speak up.
We don't have no other choice then to do this.
Sitting back comlaining isn't going to do a thing dear ones.
I myself am not well educated nor do I try to act that I am but I do have common sense and I told everyone many years ago this would happen and they needed to do something then but the people thought I was wrong for a person like me with just common sense didn't know what I was talking about.
Well folks I was right. But I won't say I told you so.
Look at how many doctors are here training from other Countries right now.
They are taking jobs also.
I think it is time for the people to go back home to their Countries now.
No more free handouts on schooling for other Countries.
No more free nothing.
Just go home and don't let the door hit you on your way out of this Country.
I have children futures to think of now and I can't worry about some dam Mexicans,India,China,or where ever coming here and staeling what belongs to our children of tomorrow.
This American was at 1 time a nice American but be dam if I am now.
I don't care how many people from other Countries say we are mean Americans.
We weren't and this is why we are being taken.
Please people stand up for what belongs to us the Americans so our families and children and grandchildren have a chance.
Lets not sit around and do nothing for we have a big job ahead of us holding on to what is rightfully ours.
Stand up and be counted.
If you think a new president can come in and change things over night you are so wrong.
It is going to take years to straighten all of this mess up.
We the American people put these Men In office and trusted them and they have failed us.
I wonder if the rich is going to take all of their money to their graves when it is their time to die? They sure in the hell can't spent all of the cash living in hell. Cause this is where all of their greedy asses are going for their greed.
I hope they all burn in hell for their sins.
If the shoe was on the other foot do you think we can go to another Country and receive free schooling and housing and medical?
Hell no we couldn't.
Shame on the greedy assholes.

Angel One
Sunday, February 22, 2004

Sorry I was in a hurry to write the letter above and mispelled some words. Oh well I make mistakes and admit to it.

Angel One
Sunday, February 22, 2004

Just thought of something else and had to write again.
Why not just let the Mexicans,India,China,Japan people come here and take our government jobs from the guys at the top offices.
Why should we the Americans have to pay them top dollar pay?
Why the president should have to work for $15.00 an hr.
And anyone under them should have to be paid $8.00 an hr.
Sure would save us Americans on the tax bills.
When they get out of office then their pay should also stop.
They shouldn't no longer be paid or taken care of once voted out.
Another saving for the Americans dollars.
They should get no more then 2 weeks vacation pay.
We shouldn't have to pay for their trips on their planes and their food.
We shouldn't have to foot their fancy parties either.
Make them pay for their own medical cost.
Let them live like they expect us to live.
Lets pick their wages for once.
If this was to happen then I do believe their just might be changes.
Maybe we can get a Mexican,China,India person or where ever else from some other Country to come and take their job for lower wages.
Get my point?
I would like to see the rich live on what they expect their employees to live on with the high prices on things.
And to see them stressed out and worried about when their bills become due and they don't have enough money to pay them.
They messed things up so let them suffer like we all have to do.

Angel One
Sunday, February 22, 2004

Hey, AH aka Attorney in Practice:

What do ya practice? Hate mongering? Who do ya think has done more disservice to the Country: People like "Attorney in Practice" or anybody else? You're one of the most IGNORANT SOB's to pass through this world. Just hope you don't procreate... And, R U also a Prostrate Cancer survivor?

Oncologist In Practice
Friday, July 23, 2004

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home