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"The Joel Spolsky's of the world"

"...will run your work life."

This was stated in the thread "why code".

AHHH! RUN! DICKENSIAN HORRORS!!! YAHHH!! SCREAM!!

I find this to be one of the most amusing non-threats ever invented on this board.

Comments?

Rednatsyb Derob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

There are large brown starfish and warm moist climates ahead of you.

fortune from a coookie
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I think it's a very true statement.

Joel has gone to great lengths to describe the wonderful hardware made available to his employees, but based on the arrogance I see in his articles, I can't imagine it can be much fun to work there.

Your own fancy schmancy office with 20 outlets and  dual 21 inch monitors doesn't mean much if your boss is a real a**hole to work for.

Bob's Your Uncle
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

People can come off quite differently in print than they do in person.

I take all of his writings as external PR in the sense that I don't know what it would really be like to work with or for him unless I actually worked there.

Besides - I haven't met ONE successful person in this business who didn't "seem" arrogant to just about everyone except their closest friends.

Rednatsyb Derob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I am here long times and do not understand who I am.

Standby Robed
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I read Joel a long distance and he my roll model.

Saprasadecceio
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I did not mean that Joel is somehow a negative or bad or arrogant person.

I mean that no matter how wonderful he is, or anyone in that position, having someone else tell you what to write and how to write is not the dream the programmers I know dreamt of when aspiring to this career.

I am sure Joel is wonderful, relative to the others out there.  But I still prefer to work for myself.

It is very difficult for me to conceive how to get my own company.  While 90% of building a viable business is hard work, the 10% that matters is luck.  Any self-help book will tell you that you make your own luck.

Just after so many years of working for someone else, so many failures of my own start-ups, I am left with declaring myself an eternal failure.

I may lack brilliance, but when I compare myself and my ideas to others, I don't see how I am much different, except for the luck factor and the lack of worldly contacts that can assist me.

So I must slave away underneath the Joel Spolsky's of the world, saving the pennies that are being slowly sapped from me by the government, the cost of living, and situations out of my control.

Boohoo.  Waaaaah.  So what.  This is a forum, I can bitch if I want to.

Keep voting for Bush.

whyBother
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I agree in some measure with what you're saying. We all want to have the greatest idea and be self directed. I think what you're "against" is not so much the "Joels" of the world as it is the notion of working for someone else besides yourself. Which is a different issue.

And I still suggest that what makes Joel an easy target for accusations of being arrogant is that he's so visible. I've found that some lesser-visible technical types embedded within commercial companies, who don't write or have any public persona, can be REAL pricks to deal with. There are people out there that you have NEVER heard about who are probably 100x as insufferable as Joel could be. I know; I've worked for 1/2 of them. ;)

However, my experience indicates that working for someone from a different mindset than development or engineering can be truly hellish.

IE: instead of compromising with a fellow techie who happens to have veto power over your decisions, you wind up creating sh*t-on-a-disk for someone who whipsaws you constantly, who doesn't respect the process or your skills, etc.

Sales people, and ex-managers from manufacturing backgrounds (autos, capital goods) can be REAL assholes to work for... their entire approach can be "you're just an overpaid secretary."

Rednatsyb Derob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Saprasadecceio, you are my roll model longs time.  Are you thinking large great softwares things?

Standby Robed
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I'll praise Joel if and when he hires a female project lead.

Until then, he's just another manager.

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

"I'll praise Joel if and when he hires a female project lead."

Wow, kudos on the extreme sexism. Joel has what, 8 employees? And he's "just another manager" unless he hires a female project lead? Pathetic. You, maam, are worse than hitler.

.
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Great rationalization for excluding females.

Yes, I'm the bad person, not the chauvinists.

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Joel is gay.  Does sexual orientation count for anything?

traf gib
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

No.

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

"Great rationalization for excluding females."

Uh, great rationalization for racism.

"I demand 50% whites in the NBA!"

Joel's shop is hardly large enough to be an equal representation of society. Idiot.

.
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Name calling to get your point across is brilliant.

Hire women, it is the right thing to do.

Think about that the next time you bitch about how you can't find a girl that wants to dangle from your mini-schlong.

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

If Joel is so great, and hires only the most brilliant people he can find, and somehow wishes to set his workplace apart, he should consider actively recruiting females to work there.

The best places to work are also the most diverse.

But then, I've worked with all guys....it was great....we got along just fine, I got great code reviews from my peers, blah blah blah, but when the group wanted to go river rafting, I was mysteriously not invited.

They said "Oh, don't be insulted.  It's just for the guys!"

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Given that there's very little documentation at all about the other employees, it's probably dumb to talk about the makeup of fog creek.

But, really, I work at a place where we've got no active threads of gender discrimination, not in the slightest.  And we still have a heavy male majority.  There just aren't that many female engineers out there to begin with.

And at FlameBaitCorp, they do have women project leads and managers.

Flamebait Sr.
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

<sarcasm>

There's only 10% blacks in the US, why should we hire any of them?

</sarcasm>

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Irig, stop your trolling and get your 13 year old ass in bed, huh?

anon-y-mous cow-ard
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

lrig,

Will you go river rafting with me?

yob taob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

I am liking women but they are not for developmnt of great softwares.

Saprasadecceio
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

How the hell did my "lukewarm endorsement of Joel thread" turn into "militant female variety hour"?

Rednatsyb Derob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

...and Bobs your uncle!

anon-y-mous cow-ard
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

"lrig,

Will you go river rafting with me?"



No.  Too late. 

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

"No.  Too late. "

Smoke a joint maybe?

yob taob
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

>>>There's only 10% blacks in the US, why should we hire any of them?<<<

The great thing about random events is that you can find just about any pattern you want to in them if you look hard enough and at a small enough subset.

Suppose hiring was done on basis where an individual's sex, race, religion, age, and all those usually irrelevant factors were not considered.  That is, the distribution of those characteristics among employees was purely random.

Then for some factor that occurred in 10% of the population a small company of say 8 employees would have a 57% chance of hiring one of those individuals.

Put another way 43% of those 8 person companies will not have an employee with this particular characteritic.  If you want to believe that there is active discrimination going on, you just find one of this 43% and claim they are an example.

I've been around long enough to have seen and been the target of discrimination.  Even here on JoS one poster admitted to discriminatory hiring in the past and I would have been one of the people he would not have hired.  But if you want to complain about discrimination and be taken seriously you need to show you understand the difference between actual discrimination and randomness.

Z
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

"You won't get a job with my company because statistically speaking, I don't have to hire you nor do I feel the need to show I am an exceptional manager because of my hiring practices because I can therefore hide behind the statistics.  I can purport to be all knowledgeable and share my opinions with the world and never feel any obligation to enrich the lives of those who have been formerly excluded.  I can also hide behind my openness about my sexuality because people will assume I must be sympathetic to the plight of minorities without me ever having to actually demonstrate."

If Joel is exceptional, he will go out and find the exceptions.

lrig
Wednesday, September 01, 2004

Regardless of Joel's "stock", he's just this guy running a profit making business.

He's not a one man social equality facilitator.

Rednatsyb Derob
Thursday, September 02, 2004

YACO.

Yet Another Cop Out.

As a renter, I can easily justify not sweeping the front porch and let the crap accumulate.  Or I can go out and sweep it.

lrig
Thursday, September 02, 2004

Dear lrig,
              Problem solved. Joel can hire you to sweep the floors and make the coffee. If you lose your attitude, and get into mini-skirts and make-up, he can promote you to receptionist. Who'd accuse him of sex discrimination then?

Stephen Jones
Thursday, September 02, 2004

I have worked for a woman project manager. She is not a good manager because she hates coding.

I also saw some successful woman project manangers and woman engineers.

Until now, I observed no difference between man and woman in software development business.

Ok, maybe there is still little difference.
IMHO, More man project managers are easy to be arrogant.

redguardtoo
http://www.d2ksoft.com

redguardtoo
Thursday, September 02, 2004

lrig,

Do you really think anyone should hire women, just for the sake of hiring women? A company with 8 employees doesn't really have the luxury of employing all the under- and misrepresented groups in society. Sure it'd be nice if more women, racial minorities, handicapped, excons, gays, foreigners, dyslexics, homeless, ADD-sufferers and whatnot get hired...

But shouldn't they be hired on basis of their merits and not on the basis of their being underrepresented in the workplace?

  -tim

a2800276
Thursday, September 02, 2004

"Hire women, it is the right thing to do."

Why?

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, September 02, 2004

He should hire stupid people to make up for all those companies which only hire "smart people" who "get things done".


Thursday, September 02, 2004

Has Joel actually published that he doesn't have women working for him?

I think if you worked for Joel, where smart and got things done, you could tell him to f' off and he won't care as long as you got things done, smartly.

Bill Rushmore
Thursday, September 02, 2004

joel's company is small enough that gender equality is a non-issue. 


++I mean that no matter how wonderful he is, or anyone in that position, having someone else tell you what to write and how to write is not the dream the programmers I know dreamt of when aspiring to this career.

isn't joel a programmer?  isn't he living his dream?

Kenny
Thursday, September 02, 2004

lrig is obvoiusly mad because they sent in a resume and didn't get selected. Pathetic. It's reverse discrimination because they're trying to leverage their position for special attention. Fuck that.

.
Thursday, September 02, 2004

This feminist hogwash boils my blood.

Noone should ever be hired because they fill some kind of race/gender quota.

Men have allowed women to get out of control with all the women's rights bullshit. Call me chauvinist or what the hell ever you like. I really don't care, because you are either a woman or a pussy.

There is a natural order to things. Women and men have ALWAYS been equal. Just because our natural places in society were more gender-defined and adhered to, didn't make the notion wrong.

Women's rights destroyed the family and ultimately is to blame for the moral decay of society. Mommy has to work now so that she is 'empowered'. Who needs a family anyway?

And I have to throw this odd twist of irony in...

See what having a working mother did to me???

cowardly anon
Thursday, September 02, 2004

"Women's rights destroyed the family and ultimately is to blame for the moral decay of society. Mommy has to work now so that she is 'empowered'. Who needs a family anyway?"

No, Reagan regime hastened the arrival of the two-person income based economy such that now both parents almost have to work unless they are excessively frugal.

Blame the right people for society's ills.

lrig
Thursday, September 02, 2004

lrig is a llort.

eeh eeh
Thursday, September 02, 2004

A general question: what aside from competence would be a reasonable reason to discriminate? and what *objective* criteria would everyone apply to say a particular group needs help? (for example in the UK unemployment amongst men is higher than women.  Should positive discrimination be used to restore the balance?)

a cynic writes...
Thursday, September 02, 2004

Dear cynic

The reason unemployment is higher among men is that overall  women are discriminated against in the workplace with lower wages and less job security - the result is that unscrupulous employers prefer to hire them. The solution to your conundrum is to sort out that underlying inequality - treat the disease not the symptom.

That are plenty of cases where I would encourage positive discrimination. However employing women as programmers is not one of them; the reason is that the problem occurs earlier in the education system - there are few women employed as programmers because few women choose programming as a career.

Incidentally I have come across strange variations on the theme. For one year I taught in the industrial city of Igualada ('mala parada' as folklore says) which is the kind of industrial city that you find in the Mid-West with the attitudes that Bored Bystander describes so well. One of the students I knew was a young girl with a fabulous talent and love for English Literature; however she was forced to study Engineering at University because her idiot bore of a father didn't want any of his children studying arty-farty crap.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, September 02, 2004

"arty-farty crap" never put food on the table.

bob mim
Thursday, September 02, 2004

Stephens Jones,

----didn't want any of his children studying arty-farty crap.----

So true, this is here in India too.

Personally, I don't like females who claim that they are in all aspects equal to males and are discriminated in some way or the other. Fact is they have their own strengths and weaknesses and so does males. They can be suited for one job, but not at all suitable for another job.

As far as I am concerned, I have never seen a good female programmer. Because mostly they don't have the aptitude for them.

It's me...
Thursday, September 02, 2004

If women wouldn't have been allowed to vote for Reagan, his economic policy would be a non-issue :P

Just kidding, couldn't resist.....

I agree wholeheartedly that Reagonomics did nothing for americans' socio-economic health.

I see the two-person income standard as more a symptom than a pathogen itself though. Competition for jobs is why companies can pay so little that two incomes are required.

It's fairly obvious that women's fairly recent assimilation into the workforce plays a significant role in increasing competition, and therefore, lowered compensation. It's supply and demand.

I am not blaming women, nor do I think badly of them. I don't think women are any 'less' than men. As a matter of fact, there are few things I find as enjoyable as an intelligent woman's company.

More traditional roles simplay have more merit. It's not like they were solely draconian principles based on religious half-truths or anything. That social structure had practical, functional utility and reason.

What overall benefits to society does women's abundant presence in the workforce provide?

What overall benefits to society are provided when the majority are housewives?

I'm well aware that it is not practical for every woman to instantly become a housewife. I will not hold my breath, but I do think it would be in man AND woman's best interests to return to more traditional gender-defined roles to at least some extent.

I could rant on and on about how the androgynization of society is killing it. Hell, even the ideal female form ('ideal' only because it is marketed as such) in America is prevalently androgynous!

Alas, I spare thee from my ramblings...

cowardly anon
Thursday, September 02, 2004

---"arty-farty crap" never put food on the table. "----

Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air.

But don't let simple facts get in the way of a good prejudice.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, September 02, 2004

"Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air."

In one way or another, they are all living off the taxes dollars that come from common working folks.

bob mim
Thursday, September 02, 2004

Load of balls!

How is a fine art expert at Sotheby's living off your tax dollars?
Or a copy writer at an ad agency?
Or a network TV or Hollywood script writer?
And how is a literature professor's source of income different from that of an engineering professor?

In fact the proportion of engineers who live off tax dollars is probably higher than that of nearly any other comparable profession. Roads, bridges, railways, guided missile systems, space exploration, meteorology.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, September 02, 2004

as if we have any choice in the matter...

patriarchal societies only work if physical strength is a commodity.  male dominance was doomed ever since machines started doing a lot of the grunt work...

look for a matriarchal society if (when?) men are no longer needed for reproduction...

Kenny
Thursday, September 02, 2004

>>"How is a fine art expert at Sotheby's living off your tax dollars?
Or a copy writer at an ad agency?
Or a network TV or Hollywood script writer?"

They're all subsidized in one way or another.  It's just like pro sports; tax payers subsidize stadiums and other facilities.  The fat cat owners are subsidized with the taxes from hard working floks.  It's the same with the artsy fartsy crowd.

bob mim
Thursday, September 02, 2004

Dear Bobmin

What makes you think that artists, writers, archaleogists and all the other people you mention don't work as hard as you?

Stephen Jones
Friday, September 03, 2004

Hi Stephen  - I sort of knew the reason for the difference in unemployment rates - I was trying to see if anyone bit. 

The other point was that the thread seemed revolve around "I'm in group x, therefore I'm hard done by"  which is a non-runner as far as I'm concerned.  What I was looking for was some rigour to back it up - I suspect a long wait. 

a cynic writes...
Friday, September 03, 2004

Z,
The misunderstanding of the statistical issue is why many small company's are exempt from a lot of the employment law.  Here in Massachusetts, many of the discrimination laws don't kick-in until the company has more than 25 employees.  This protects the small business owner from baseless discrimination suits.  My shop has 10 developers - all male.  Out of all the resumes we receive, less than 5% are from women. 

senkodemayo
Friday, September 03, 2004

>> "Plenty of copy writers, scriptwriters, university professors, literature teachers, fine art experts, and a long etc don't exactly live off thin air."

>> In one way or another, they are all living off the taxes dollars that come from common working folks.

I would be f*cking OVERJOYED if the waste of my tax dollars was limited to PBS and NPR.

(note to non US folks: these are the government sponsored TV and radio "public" networks in the US, with decidedly liberal slants just to p*ss off conservatives. But they are also quite good many times. I think the PBS-NPR/public funding of the arts is the emotional pushbutton here.)

Rednatsyb Derob
Friday, September 03, 2004

-----What makes you think that artists, writers, archaleogists and all the other people you mention don't work as hard as you?-------

Simple!
Because they don't whine at forum like these, complaining, other's are stealing their jobs. And how tough life can be to them!
 

It's me...
Friday, September 03, 2004

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