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Outsourcing happening within North America?

Just got some info about a software company in Toronto, Canada:

They've got a bunch of immigrant programmers from China working for about $25,000 Cdn (about $19,000 US).  Now, I know that's not exactly sweatshop money, lol, but its quite below the industry average...

Kenny
Monday, August 30, 2004

well, their fundamental skills are excellent.  the reason they can't just quit and work elsewhere is that their english is really really bad.  but since all the upper managers and such are bilingual, language isn't an issue there...

i just feel sorta bad for them 'cause i think they're being exploited?  i mean, sure, they're getting paid market value, but the value they bring to the company far exceeds their pay...

Kenny
Monday, August 30, 2004

Kenny,

-----  i mean, sure, they're getting paid market value, but the value they bring to the company far exceeds their pay...-----

This is your way of thinking, I am not saying it is wrong. But we Indians or for that matter chinese may view it in different way.

Some give money more importance, some give good working environment more importance, some give good living condition more importance, some want to learn the maximum no matter how much they are paid. So it all depends how one views a thing.

Money or salary is just one part. Yes, it is important but not everything to be happy and contended.

Redguard,

Just me is absolutely right!

 

It depends how one views a situation..
Monday, August 30, 2004

Got an article or a source of any kind?  It's very hard to discuss these "I know a guy who knows a guy who heard of this place that hires these guys" kinda things.

Thanks.

Joe Blandy
Monday, August 30, 2004

>Money or salary is just one part. Yes, it is important
>but not everything to be happy and contended.

I don't think that Kenny would disagree with you.  And I think that most people feel good about their work when they produce more value than they consume.  Their consumption of value might be money or something else, but it ought to be something (but very low wages are often a sign of exploitation, whether the workers "do it for the money" or not).

Also, while people feel happy when they produce more value than they consume, they also feel unhappy when other people exploit the value of that margin without producing proportionate value themselves.

Kalani
Monday, August 30, 2004

++Got an article or a source of any kind?  It's very hard to discuss these "I know a guy who knows a guy who heard of this place that hires these guys" kinda things.++

ah, its tough, i know, but i don't wanna get my source in trouble...

Kenny
Monday, August 30, 2004

We don't want Kenny getting in trouble. It would be a shame to have to yell

"Oh my God, they killed Kenny!"

"You bastards!"

Mike
Monday, August 30, 2004

Kenny,

The point of your post is?

What this particular Canadian company seems to be doing (i.e. paying recent immigrant programmers lower wages than what many other Canadian programmers earn) is not an uncommon situation.

The fact is, we don't know what these particular Chinese programmers are doing for this company and what their true value to this company is. Are they simply writing source code from a spec or are they doing a lot more than this? Just because software development tends to be very labor intensive doesn't automatically mean all grunt workers deserve to be paid a lot of money.


Monday, August 30, 2004

I'm suprised a socialist country like Canada allows that... even in the U.S., it's illegal.

Mr. O
Monday, August 30, 2004

If an employee doesn't contribute more than they consume either the company won't exist for long or they won't have a job soon.  I believe Microsoft and Cisco's revenue is on the order of nearly $700k per employee.  That doesn't mean that they pay people anywhere near that.  And yes the owners have a spread between their reward and what they pay employees.  But they recoup that because there is risk in hiring someone.

So the way I figure it is, yes, I'm happy that the company makes money off me.  And in our system, if I'm unhappy with the cut I'm getting then I can go start my own business, with which are potential rewards but also the risks.

And yes, lots of companies outsource within North America.  A lot of organizations contract out payroll services to companies like ADP or Ceridian.

Jeremy
Monday, August 30, 2004

revenue != profit

By the time you take that 700k/employee and deduct taxes, equipment and maintenance, electricity, water, proudct manufacturing and distribution costs, legal expenses (even just regular stuff, forget lawsuits for now) and so on and so forth then that 100k/year salary employee isn't doing all that badly.

As for those $19,000 US employees - what's the cost of living around there? What's the income tax? Sales tax? Public health vs private insurance? The number sounds low, but they're not exactly living in New York, after all. For all we know it's a perfectly decent salary for a small company in that area, or they may be slowly starving to death - there's no way to tell, which makes the original post pretty pointless.


Tuesday, August 31, 2004

CAD$25K/yr in Toronto is about 70% higher than minimum wage, assuming a 40 hour week.

It is CAD$2000/year above the unofficial "poverty line" for a family of 2 in Toronto, i.e. the "low income cutoff", the level at which you spend most of your money on subsistence: food, clothing, and shelter.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, August 31, 2004

I only cite revenue per employee as a figure because determining other numbers from publicly available data is hazy at best.  And in the United States, labor is usually the largest cost for non-manufacturing companies.

Jeremy
Tuesday, August 31, 2004

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