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Super-Duper Incredible Person

>> "Fog Creek is not hiring right now, although for a super-duper incredible person we might make an exception."

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=179420&ixReplies=10

Oh this is rich!  We're not going to hire anyone except the person who can cure cancer?  Tell me, what would this super duper incredible person have to be able to do in order for you to hire them?

A Super Duper Incredible Person
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

Er, leap over tall buildings in a single bound, perhaps?

Walk on water, maybe?

Be able to turn back time by flying around the world counterclockwise?

Not-so-super-duper
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

*rolls eyes* can we stop with the joel bashing.

Aussie Chick
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

When joel stops doing things worth bashing

pastor of muppets
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

I'm not bashing Joel.  I'm simply asking what are the criteria for "A Super-Duper Incredible Person"?

A Super Duper Incredible Person
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

>Oh this is rich!

Why is it rich to say "we are not hiring" and yet allow yourself an out clause in the case that someone who suits you very much comes along. It seems to be  the sensible thing to do.

Aussie Chick
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

Makes sense to be. 

Synder
Wednesday, August 25, 2004


If such a super duper person does indeed exist (of course they do), he/she will be doing his/her own thing. Not sucking up to Joel or anyone else!  Just so you know  ;)

A Super Duper Incredible Person
Wednesday, August 25, 2004

I have to agree with the OP. Anyone that good wouldn't want to work for Fog Creek - what's in it for them?

Joel says himself he's going to hire interns, so why would anyone in the top whatever percentile want to work there.

Let's face it, Fog Creek hardly have a dazzling array of ground-breaking products.

Be realistic here, if Joel got hit by a bus, Fog Creek would be toast in a year.

BTW, this is not Joel-bashing, its just realistic.

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Quite simple, really. Write a LISP compiler in assembler on a Pocket PC (over the weekend).

Alex
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I see no problem with that Joel's statement; he has made far worse ones.

Such super-duper (read: extremely bright) person may well be a beginner/intern, and some experience in a successeful, well-run ISV won't hurt while you're on your way to doing "your own thing".

Egor
Thursday, August 26, 2004

There is a very simple test.

Send your CV to fogcreek during a period in which they are not hiring.

If they offer you a job, then you are a Super-Duper Incredible Person.

If you're offer a job during a hiring period, then you only qualify as a Super Incredible Person.

Ged Byrne
Thursday, August 26, 2004

"Joel says himself he's going to hire interns, so why would anyone in the top whatever percentile want to work there"

The last intern wrote a PHP to ASP converter which was used to port FogBugz.

That seems fairy top percentile.

Ged Byrne
Thursday, August 26, 2004

It isn't nice of me to laugh at the last sentence of Ged's last comment, but I can't help myself.

Sorry Joel, and whoever else. Not intended in any nasty way at all.


Thursday, August 26, 2004

Funny because of the fairy typo, or because successfull ASP to PHP translaters are achievable by the average intern?

Ged Byrne
Thursday, August 26, 2004

The fairy typo.


Thursday, August 26, 2004

I do admire what Joel's trying to do, but the difference between his company and Microsoft (clearly the model for FogCreek) is that Microsoft dominates the desktop.

By virtue of having their OS run on so many machines, not only are they wealthy in dollar terms (and can afford high salaries, the programmer-centric offices, etc.) but also there is a chance to work on a whole range of interesting things, from hardware interfaces (low level device drivers) to AI challenges (search and classification, etc.), b/c all of those things come into play when you're dealing with the OS.

It seems to me that all the snickering by the other posters comes from looking at what Fog Creek is working on: bug tracking and web page authoring.  Nice products that fill a niche, which (ostensibly) make a profit, but it's not the kind of challenging stuff that makes top programmers says "I want to work there."

It doesn't help that Joel is a little vain and a bit of a narcissist, either.

Chill
Thursday, August 26, 2004

OP:

What a chode you are.  This post is clear evidence of your utterly unfounded jealous obsession with Joel and his staff.  Do you sit outside their office, across the street, in the bushes, with binoculars?  I only ask because you seem like the type.

Clearly, they're not currently hiring.  Clearly, Joel has some common/business sense, and knows that he should never be completely closed-minded when it comes to the issue of taking on new talent.  As such, if he finds someone absolutely phenomenal, he of course will hire them.

This policy in no way obligates him to publish established criteria for Mr. Phenom, as Joel himself likely does not know what this mythical person will have to offer until he encounters him, and also because he certainly doesn't want a flood of resumes from jackholes like you vying for an as-yet nonexistant job opening.

Put down the binoculars, throw away the used condoms you were going to leave in Joel's mailbox, and go find yourself a job.  If you're such a super duper incredible, start your own ISV.  Problem solved.

Next!

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Yawn!

Next!

A Super Duper Incredible Person
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I surprised no one has answered my question yet.  What makes a super duper incredible person?

If a company is not hiring but says they will hire a super duper incredible person if one comes along... what would that person have to bring to the table in order to be hired.

I think Joel made the comment out of zealousness but it still does pose a valid question for conversation given that most companies hire out of need.

(To the guy who is posting as me:  Nice Haircut!)
(To everyone else:  Happy Birthday!)

A Super Duper Incredible Person
Thursday, August 26, 2004

It's not a valid question.  It's a ridiculous question.  It's obvious to the point of stupidity that "Super Duper Incredible Person" is a completely arbitrary metric based solely upon Joel's (or whomever's) current and very mutable needs for any given talent at any given time, or susceptibility to being sold on a particular talent that he had not previously expected to need.

It's like asking "What is everyone's favorite color?".  There's no single answer and the answers that you DO get are arbitrary and highly personal.

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Frankly, it sounds a bit disclaimerish to me.

I cannot imagine why a such an incredible person would want to work at Fog Creek. No matter how nice the conditions are, you'd still be implementing someone else's ideas.

Someone who's that talented is going to be a creative individual who wants to have ideas of his own.

Being a software developer nowadays just doesn't offer too many opportunities to do that. One mostly just implements the stuff that the computer scientists came up with.

That's not to say that there won't be many very, very smart people developing software. But now that software development is no longer on the edge of the envelope, the inovators are going to go a bit further in the architecture direction, where they get to play with the fun toys.

Devon Grey
Thursday, August 26, 2004

What I think Joel means by "Super Duper Incredible Person (tm)" is very analagous to the way we say people whom have certain handicaps are "special". Essentially meaning, "I know nobody would *really* want to come work for my two-bit company, but if somebody is *exceptionally* special (aka: profoundly gifted, yet stupid) then I will consider them".

Thats my opinion, anyway...

anon-y-mous cow-ard
Thursday, August 26, 2004

> What makes a super duper incredible person?

Well, a man and a woman love each other very much, and...

Ask your Mother!
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Maybe for Joel, the definition is "someone smart enough to know VB, but not so smart that he'll get bored with writing web authoring tools."

Like I said, I admire what Joel's trying to do, but I doubt he's going to attract the best and the brightest given the type of products his company develops.

Chill
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I don't think that there's a thing wrong with the products that Fog Creek develops.  They fill a niche, and they certainly offer opportunity for innovation and creativity, if not fame, for the programmers who work on them.

Also, who's to say that when they're not working on their bread and butter, these brilliant programmers might not start a whole new line of product for FogCreek, where the "fun toys" are?  Could happen.

Just because a project is not glamorous does not mean it shouldn't be implemented well.  I know absolutely brilliant programmers who find joy in writing CMS's from scratch.  When they finish one, they start another, better one.  What's the problem with that?  We don't all have to work on embedded ICBM controllers (I wish nobody would).

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I can't tell you who qualifies as a "Super-Duper Incredible Person" but I can tell you who doesn't:

http://kalanithielen.com/portfolio/

(At least judging from the ignored email.)

Kalani
Thursday, August 26, 2004

>I don't think that there's a thing wrong with the products >that Fog Creek develops.

Neither do I.

> Also, who's to say that when they're not working on their
>bread and butter, these brilliant programmers might not start
>a whole new line of product for FogCreek, where the "fun
>toys" are?  Could happen.

I didn't specify what I meant by "fun toys".

I'm not talking about what kind of software they are creating.

I'm talking about what kinds of design challenges they get to take on.  Nowdays, most of the subproblems in software design are solved problems, and software engineers don't design algorithms any more, they call APIs and standard libraries.

Fun:

NP-Hard and PSPACE-Hard problems
Data Visualization and Search
AI classifiers
Machine reasoning and learning
Language design
Kernel hacking
Computabilty and complexity studies
Neural nets, PDP, swarm AI
Concurrency

Not Fun:

Document windows
Writing all your stuff twice because Microsoft can't
wrap their heads around the concept of a standard or
how to comply with it
Figuring out someone else's stupid, ass-backwards API
Applying design pattern #376, again
Maintaining code written by some mental titan from a tech school who gives data members names like x, y, and z.
The Customer Wants It Bluer (oh, and can you make it respond to voice command?).

Devon Grey
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Are neural nets still fun?  Maybe I should add my text recognizer to my CV.

Kalani
Thursday, August 26, 2004

PS, speaking of not fun: Writing an ActiveX control container (from scratch) is probably one of the most horrific things you can be forced to do in Windows.  It's a ridiculous amount of code just to support ActiveX controls and event processing in your windows.  Similarly on the old Mac: making a text widget that can scroll (just as much code as required for making an ActiveX control container with nothing at all like a comparable reward).

Kalani
Thursday, August 26, 2004

>Maybe for Joel, the definition is "someone smart enough to
>know VB, but not so smart that he'll get bored with writing
>web authoring tools."

Or "not so smart he won't touch VB with somebody else's ten foot pole".

>Like I said, I admire what Joel's trying to do, but I doubt he's
>going to attract the best and the brightest given the type of
>products his company develops.

Exactly. The whole phrase "smart and gets things done" really means "as smart as I am looking for, but not any smarter."

This is because "gets things done" means "gets things that I consider important done", and things that are deeper or more abstract than the speaker is looking for aren't considered "things" to "get done", but rather some sort of ivory-tower abstraction.

Sysadmins think that users are ignorant, while users think that sysadmins just fiddle with abstract arcana and don't do anything useful.

Coders think that sysadmins are ignorant, while sysadmins think that coders just fiddle with abstract arcana and don't do anything useful.

System architects think that coders are ignorant, while coders think that system architects just fiddle with abstract arcana and don't do anything useful.

Computer scientists think that system architects are ignorant, while system architects think that computer scientists just fiddle with abstract arcana and don't do anything useful.

Of the above beliefs are totally correct and/or totally mistaken to an equal degree.

Devon Grey
Thursday, August 26, 2004

And how do "Computer Scientists" feel about philosophers?  This is a nice little hierarchy of aristocracy for the intellectual world.

But I don't think that it's really very accurate.  That's the kind of world-view that criticized Gauss for spending the latter part of his life on astronomy and mere "fiddly bits."  There's a lot of interaction between those "levels" and I think that some of the best "Computer Scientists" have been people who have had some interest in all levels.  Turing fiddled with making his own computer.  Knuth wrote TeX.  John von Neumann fiddled with a computer too.  Newton made clocks, Leibniz made calculators, etc.

It's been my impression that the most vocal of the aristocrats of theory tend to be librarians rather than authors.

Kalani
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I still think anyone that would be generally considered "super-duper incredible" would not want to work on such mundane projects as FogBUGZ and CityDesk.

Not that there is anything wrong with these products, or the people who work on them, it just appears to better suit interns, rather than top percentile people.

There's also the problem that Joel/FCS can't afford the very best people, like Microsoft can. In my case, I currently get $450,000 per year, so Joel would have to sell a lot of copies to finance that, especially when the employment overheads are considered.

In this way, it is frankly silly for Joel to suggest that FCS is in competition with Microsoft. They are really in such different leagues that the statement is meaningless.

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Personally, I'd like to know how ANY software engineer is worth $450,000 per year unless they're designing target acquisition software for stealth bombers.  That's just outrageous.

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Muppet,

All I can say is that everyone needs insurance.

Enjoy, I certainly do ;-)

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I sent him my resume but got no reply. I am so depressed i thought I was Super Duper Incredible person now I am void, I am nobody, I feel like dying.

Thought I was Super Duper ...
Thursday, August 26, 2004

You are SOMEBODY!

Jesse
Thursday, August 26, 2004

The only guys I know making six figures in insurance were salesmen or executives, never developers.

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

"I sent him my resume but got no reply. I am so depressed i thought I was Super Duper Incredible person now I am void, I am nobody, I feel like dying."

Hang in there dude. Read his blog 24/7, find out when his birthday is and send flowers, cards, notes you name it.

If you really want to work for him, you have to treat/praise him like God. No wisecracking or God forbid crticizing you will be out on your ass on the scary garment district.

2 CENTS ARE FREE
Thursday, August 26, 2004

What I do is design and development of underwriting and claims handling systems, using SQL Server 2000 and ASP.NET.

There are a million people with these technical skills, but few with the depth of vertical knowledge too.

They even offered me a $100,000 bonus at the end of the year, if I don't resign, as they want to protect their investment and more importantly, don't want me to walk out the door to one of their competitors. Not that I would, as I am very loyal/professional, but it is nice to be appreciated.

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Nemesis,

You is the shiznit!

Wisenheimer
Thursday, August 26, 2004

What is "shiznit" ? Please excuse my ignorance.

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Ahh, as always, Google is my friend ;-)

Nemesis
Thursday, August 26, 2004

+++What I do is design and development of underwriting and claims handling systems, using SQL Server 2000 and ASP.NET.+++

That's some con job you've got going, then.  I know plenty of guys doing this, with plenty of vertical/domain expertise in the industry, and they're certainly not making a half million dollars, ESPECIALLY now with many MANY development jobs getting shipped overseas with architects being contracted in for projects and then sent on their merry way.  I call BS, sir.  :)

muppet
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Does everyone really need insurance? Is there a legal requirement that everyone have it where you are? (For example here in the UK it is obligatory, if in control of a motor-powered vehicle, to be insured for that.)

Obviously it makes no difference if you are the insurer :)

Tom_
Thursday, August 26, 2004

big tits, small ass...

coward
Thursday, August 26, 2004

After reading the "Anoop" forums, Joel better watch out for Anoops pretending to be Super-Duper Incredible.

chip
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I find it strange that everybody assumes 'super duper' means best of the field.

Muppet had it right, the term is a weird term to allow Joel as disclaimer.

Super duper could just mean "Someone who gels really well" or "someone who is just a mini me"!

If there was a really qualitative answer, then surely there would be no need to use such a 'fairy' term.

Aussie chick
Thursday, August 26, 2004

I'm Joel's case, I read super-duper as "Someone I can pay $80K, and he'll generate $250K in sales and I don't have to do jack to manage him."

He's comfortable as is.  But he'd be a dumb-ass not to take on an additional person if it made him money, reduced his risk, and lessened his stress level.

Bill Carlson
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Coward:

I'll second that.

Frankie goes to the hollywood
Thursday, August 26, 2004

$450k? I've known a few developers who were worth that much, easily. I knew one guy who who should have been paid a million/yr, if you want to judge pay on how much he contibuted compared to the other devs. I doubt anyone I worked with made much more than $200k a year however. However, the technical founders of the company all made millions, but that was because of an equity stake, not a salary.

When you have a cash cow product, you pay the stars as much as it takes to keep them working. For the guy making $450k, I'm betting he makes that much due being really smart, really hard working, and really lucky. Of course like the saying goes, the harder you work, the luckier you get.

I know its hard to believe just how much better some developers are. I've felt that rude awaking. I've always been heads and shoulders above the people I worked with, I was seriously hot shit. Then I went to the big leagues, I found out I hadn't even been born yet.

Some of the really awesome devs are famous, like for example John Carmack. Every geek gamer knows that name. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of John Carmack level talents in the world, and most will never be famous. Almost all of them will be very well paid however. Probably not paid what they're worth, but well paid nonetheless.

ronk!
Thursday, August 26, 2004

Thanks ronk!, you certainly seem to have a more sensible attitude than some I could mention, like muppet !

You are right, it takes hard work, loyalty and of course luck to be in such a position (I also love Gary Player's saying "The more I practice, the luckier I get"). There is no course in the world you can attend to get a job like this, you have to be in the right place at the right time and ride the wave. Someone is going to do it, so it might as well be me.

Bill Gates did just that. He isn't so rich because he was a million times more productive than any of his peers, he rode the wave, big style.

I think muppet's attitude is typical of wannabe-types who feel undervalued (and they probably are) and resent anyone who is doing better than them.

Of course, if I offered muppet a job working with me with salary of $450,000 and working from home, would he just say, no that's BS, or would he bite my hand off? One more thing muppet, if there are so many people with those skills and domain knowledge, why are they where they are ? Everyone makes choices in life.

I am well paid, but, as ronk! suggested, if you look at value-added I'm cheap and could easily double my income and pretty much nobody would bat an eyelid.

I'm certainly not the highest paid developer. I remember a few years ago working for a large clothing retailer in the UK and being impressed by meeting their BPR guy. He was on $10,000 per day and was scheduled to be there for a year. That's a big pile of cash, but look at the value-add. This guy saved them many, many millions of dollars, every year, so he was cheap in comparison to the initial investment.

Nemesis
Friday, August 27, 2004

Presumably one of the qualities of a "Super-Duper Incredible Person" is that he doesn't waste his time on asinine threads like this one.

Stephen Jones
Friday, August 27, 2004

That counts both of us out then ;-)

Nemesis
Friday, August 27, 2004

I don't exactly see this as a case of anyone being hypocritical.

When an employer says that they only wish to hire super people, they do *not* (whether they are aware of it or not) mean super *competent* people. They mean super *appropriate* people.

Now what appropriate means depends upon what they need. A merely "very" competent developer who fit in very well with the other developers might be much more appropriate than an uber-developer who didn't. A superstar who loved creating new structures, and would be dissatisfied if he couldn't, would be much less of an asset to some employers than a star who loved hammering out every last detail, polishing and bullet-proofing a piece of software so it was ready to ship.

I think that a wise employer discards the question "Who is better?" for the question "Who fits better?".  Then the whole process simply becomes an exercise in matchmaking, rather than a dick-measuring contest.

Devon Grey
Friday, August 27, 2004

+++I think muppet's attitude is typical of wannabe-types who feel undervalued (and they probably are) and resent anyone who is doing better than them.+++

No, my attitude is typical of the type of person who believes that unchecked capitalism is a horribly, horribly broken system and that folks making the sort of cash you purport to be making owe an enormous obligation to society at large.

muppet
Friday, August 27, 2004

What obligation would that be?

MetaTroll
Friday, August 27, 2004

>(To the guy who is posting as me:  Nice Haircut!)
>(To everyone else:  Happy Birthday!)

Super-Duper OP,

Are you refering to me when you say, "Nice Haircut"? I was just reading this thread and came accross this. Man, I haven't even gone through this thread from its infancy till now. Not even interested in it.

Sathyaish Chakravarthy
Friday, August 27, 2004

muppet: "folks making the sort of cash you purport to be making owe an enormous obligation to society at large."

It's called tax and here in the UK it is pretty painful, hence my desire to locate to Dubai (zero tax) in a year or two.

I also give a lot to charity, although I must admit I'm not really sure what form the "obligation" you refer to should take.

Perhaps you'd care to expand on your previous comments.

Nemesis
Friday, August 27, 2004

Tom_, as you say, here in the UK you need insurance for being in charge of a motor vehicle on the public highway, although only for third-party cover.

The only other compulsory insurance I know of here in the UK is for businesses to have Employer's Liability cover.

In both cases, I think it may be possible to run an exemption by self-insuring, but that requires large deposits of cash and most people don't like that idea.

Nemesis
Friday, August 27, 2004

>No, my attitude is typical of the type of person who believes that unchecked capitalism is a horribly, horribly broken system and that folks making the sort of cash you purport to be making owe an enormous obligation to society at large.

Actually I have to sort of agree with Muppet on this one. Although I didn't read his former post, and I wouldn't put it as harshly as he.

I don't so much believe that rich people owe an obligation to society, however I wish that the people making the money would become undertake a bit more philanthropy.

I worked in an accounting firm and did the books for many a millionaire with $1/2million annual incomes, I was continually shocked at the level of charitable donations. Unless they were donating to the building fun of their favourite private school (a tax deduction in Australia), most would be lucky to donate $1000 to charity.
Some would engage in charitable acts, but I questioned alot of those as more aimed at 'impressing others' (ie chief of the fire brigade or Treasure of the ambulance committee).
I give comparitively alot more money to charity, but more then monetary donations, I would like to think if I had the money I would be trying to help others, ie scholarships etc.

In some ways the communist attitude is noble (though for anyone who has read Animal Farm, the problems with it are blatant)

Aussie Chick
Friday, August 27, 2004

+++though for anyone who has read Animal Farm, the problems with it are blatant+++

Animal Farm isn't about the flaws in communism so much as its about the flaws in human nature, which defeat communism.  At least, that's what I took from it.

muppet
Friday, August 27, 2004

Sure, but it also highlights why possible well intended ideas (a communist way of life) jut won't work in the *real world*. The book was after all about a communist community,  if I recall it had a number of stabs at Stalin and Mao.

Aussie Chick
Friday, August 27, 2004

++Just won't work++

in the current state of humanity, you're absolutely right.

Whether that state can be transcended is up for (vigorous) debate.

muppet
Friday, August 27, 2004

debate? I don't think debate about this is possible. Because it can only take two routes, past the beuracrats or the pyschologists.

And as I am fast discovering, the only sensible pyschologists out there (eg Margaret Mead, Marcel Danesi) are far outnumbered by people who want to explain the state of the world as belonging to a five years obsessions with his mother/penis (eg Freud, Hall, Bettelheim http://www.geocities.com/psychohistory2001/bettelheim.html)

Ugh. I just think this world is simple, but people are making alot of money out of making in complex.

A debate? It would never ever end, and I for one think the process would be painful.

Aussie Chick
Friday, August 27, 2004

I think its a debate that needs to be had, nonetheless.  We humans are in a horrible, globally mutual predicament.

muppet
Friday, August 27, 2004

So have the debate.

But first tell me who should have it?

Then tell me if it will do any good! We are still being taught about freud and the marvels of pyschsexual stages, the vast majority believes this crud. How can we expect any change when the so called experts are so full of crap?!?!?

The computer science world is so simple. Maths is so simple, so logical. Enjoy that world because the world of social sciences is not so nice. I am serious, read the link in the above post, and if you, like me, are left asking 'What the Heck?', then let me tell you that the guys who wrote it are big guns in the world of pyschology, those theories are set in stone!

Yes people, as children we enjoyed the story of the three little pigs because the older pig represented our penises destroying the big bad father figure (the wolf) and we were then able to elope with our mother! ie We found this story sexually satisfying, as with most childhood stories! So say the experts anyway!

Aussie Chick
Friday, August 27, 2004

Actually there are quite a few schools of thought in pyschology that dismiss Freud as antiquated and archaic.

In any case, I hardly think that the psychologists are to blame for our current state of affairs.  It seems that you have your own personal cross to bear, there.  The problem lies in each and every person on this planet.  Human beings, en masse, are apathetic, lethargic, and highly defensive against any disturbance of their personal status quo.  People don't like to be inconvenienced.  They don't like their routines to change.  This is evident EVERYWHERE.

Those are the problems.  Not folks who think that everything in the world relates back to their penis.  It seems you've got some personal issue there that I can't address.

muppet
Saturday, August 28, 2004

My personal issue relates soley to the fact that I have to study the stuff for some class, when I believe it is incorrect.

My overall comments though are that this stuff forms that basis of so much of what happens in the world. You and I can have opinions all we want, but that will not change a thing. The people with the real power are in politics and the unversities (which is very political in its own right). My point despite my ranting is that there are a lot of beliefs set in stone that require toppling before any change can come.

Aussie Chick
Saturday, August 28, 2004

++++The people with the real power are in politics and the unversities++++

Bunk.

That's only true because the proles don't participate in the system because they're too apathetic and lazy.  These people don't have any power not given them by a complacent society.

muppet
Saturday, August 28, 2004

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