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Coldfusion programmer wanted to work for assholes

Has everyone here seen this?

http://www.macromedia.com/cfusion/webforums/forum/messageview.cfm?catid=14&threadid=871452

Seems to be linked from everywhere at the moment.

Patronising, obnoxious, unprofessional rant of a job advert that treats programmers like misbehaving children.

Of course it has some points but is such a dick about it that I can't see anyone wanting to work for them in a thousand years...

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

I think that's the single greatest job posting I have ever read.  It's no nonsense, filters out the primadona's nicely (they'll be insulted and in a huff) and does it with humor.

Good job all around.  They sound like a good bunch of guys to work with if you're actually Smart and Get Things Done.

I'm impressed.

Figures this crowd would be insulted by this sort of thing, though.  Try not to get your knickers in a knot while you're prancing around pointing your finger and shouting about your sensibilities.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Heh. Well you go work for them then!

I just thought it was funny mostly, but would you really want to work for someone so patronising?

Like one of the comments says, it's like posting a personal ad that says ' must not be: (1) fat (2) ugly (3) a loser (4) a bitch (5) shit in bed (6) must not do any of this long list of things my ex-girlfriend did that annoyed me.

You say what you /do/ want, not what you don't want. Otherwise you come across as a negative patronising asshole...

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

Of course the question remains of whether any competent programmers would actually choose to work in coldfusion (urgh)...

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

Right.  If you are unconventional, you're an asshole.  That's becoming more and more obvious in this community.

Has it occured to you that the set who trivially match what you want is a much larger subset than the set who does not match what you don't want?  They're simply being efficient.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

+++Of course the question remains of whether any competent programmers would actually choose to work in coldfusion (urgh)...+++

well you've got me on that.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Actually, just about every request on there is reasonable, and I'll bet that anyone here that's ever screened resumes will tell you that despite those requirements, they will STILL get replies like "I worked with ColdFusion four years ago and am available for fifteen hours a week. I live in the UK, my CV is attached..."

Philo

Philo
Friday, August 13, 2004

Well I didn't say the requirements were unreasonable - it's the way they phrase the advert. Makes them sound like jerks. Has nothing to do with how 'conventional' or otherwise they're being.

Muppet - I suspect you of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, but yeah, maybe you should go work there

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

+++Muppet - I suspect you of disagreeing just for the sake of disagreeing, but yeah, maybe you should go work there+++

I absolutely am not.  I have no problems whatsoever with their wording.  I think it's a cold blast of much needed fresh air not only in this industry, but in the corporate/semi-corporate world in general.  Some of you folks could really USE a stiff breeze up your kilts.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Maybe it works for them, but I suspect they're ruling out the people who'd actually be best at the job, along with all the timewasters. If you want good people you don't patronise/insult them by reeling off a long rudely-phrased list like that.

Like I said though, it is kinda funny. Maybe some decent people will apply just out of novelty value

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

I think the best people will appreciate the frankness, it's the people who *think* they're the best who will be insulted, as I'm sure is the intention.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Oh, she's into marketing, definitely qualified to judge the work of developers and manage projects:

http://www.evolvedsites.com/meettheteam.html

And judging by the number and length of her replies, she has a lot of time on her hands.

Fred
Friday, August 13, 2004

Great job ad, spoilt by being too long. Edited to a fifth its current length it would probably still be funny and get the point across without  winding up so many people.

Slough Bloke
Friday, August 13, 2004

Geez, in the time it took her to write that, she could've been halfway done!

Michael E.
Friday, August 13, 2004

Haha. Whatever. You're a rude guy (judging by a lot of your posts here), and a rude job adverts appeal to you. I'm (generally speaking) not, and it doesn't. Has nothing to do with how good I am, or think I am. It's a shitty coldfusion job anyway, it's not like it's anything programmer-ego-testing.

What's ironic is that one of their list of requirements is that the candidate not be rude!

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

Haha... look at Mark 'Our logo guy' on that webpage. His head looks like the end of a pencil.

Mmm... anyway

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

Actually he reminded me of Maxx Headroom.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Doesn't she _ever_ shut up? :-)

http://www2.centuryfitness.com/site.nsf/0/baf1d0ec64ae99ff86256c2a00663fb6?OpenDocument

Fred
Friday, August 13, 2004

"Some of you folks could really USE a stiff breeze up your kilts."

Muppet, is that why we're all employed college graduates, and you're not?

John
Friday, August 13, 2004

John -

say what?  I'm employed.  Quite well, in fact.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

I like the job add.
I think there should be more like it.

James Ladd
Friday, August 13, 2004

>a rude job adverts appeal to you

Uh, say what? Where did I say that?

> rude guy

Uh, are you talking to me or to You-Know-Who?

Michael E.
Friday, August 13, 2004

Sorry, was addressing 'You know who'.

Admittedly, as a work of comedy, it's not bad. I like the bit further down in the comments about variable names for a mailing list including $poorspamvictims, amongst other bits.

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004


Hah, Muppet go work for them. You little ugly Hoggle, you.

Q
Friday, August 13, 2004

This ad is absolutely *ABSURD*. Not that I disagree with much of the substance of it.

My opinion is that the idiot that posted this ad should either just hire a f*ckin' employee if they want that much control of someone's schedule and work schedule; or do it themselves. Oh, I forgot, they apparently want the privelige of paying conditionally, and that's illegal in an employment situation.

It's just that trying to post a shopping list of EVERY desirable attribute in the hopes that you will filter out the lowlifes is doomed to failure.

What will happen is that the qualified people whom you want will be repulsed. The only applications you receive will be *trash* and will represent those who have no choice who will do a human chameleon thing to try to be whatever you're asking for. I know, because years ago I took part in placing newspaper job ads almost as anally fastidious - and did so in an area that is known for crappy tech work opportunities. The responses we got were, uhm --- underwhelming to say the least.

The kind of person who writes a job ad like this is an immature and naive techie deeply into the "control everything" attitude who believes that their self righteousness is some sort of badge of honor.

Move along, nothing to see, except some idiot wasting their time and everyone's attention.

Bored Bystander
Friday, August 13, 2004

No Philo, it's not a reasonable job ad. There are two serious problems.

1) It states the candidate must meet deadlines, without describing how those deadlines are set or whether they're set accurately. As we all know, they almost certainly are not. Simply blaming the programmer for not meeting deadlines is a cop-out.

2) The company will only pay if the deadline is met, yet seems to be paying casual staff rates, not business rates. That type of fixed price delivery is worth big premiums because it's so hard.

And of course there's confirmation within the ad. The candidate must be nice to women. Presumably this means to the employer, who is female. This requirement tells us that other programmers have complained about aspects of their job and that those complaints, rather than being resolved, have been met with aggression and hostility, leading to termination.

Mickey Mouse web shops like this need to be allowed to become extinct, so that professional developers can get the business.

.
Friday, August 13, 2004

That's a really neat ad.

I actually have the skills they are looking for, but there is no way I would consider working for them. There is simply too much demand for these skills right no to bother with such nasty people.

My observation:

1. It is clear that they have had many problems with developers in the past and this posting contains a laundry lis of problems they are having with substandard developers.

2. It is clear why they are only able to hire substandard developers. No professional with skills would want to work for such a firm.

Worker Bea
Friday, August 13, 2004

I'm amazed at all you people claiming that there is such a demand on qualified programmers going around.  I'm sure not seeing any of it, and I know plenty of folks in the industry who have been in a longer dry spell than I've ever seen.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Who would apply for a job there? Only people with absolutely no place else to go.

Matthew Lock
Friday, August 13, 2004

Well, I do a fair bit of freelance web work, and can certainly afford to avoid clients like this. Fussy, rude primadonnas who want to micro-manage you, yet don't appear to have any skills at understanding or managing the development process.

Matt
Friday, August 13, 2004

[God help me, I'm going to agree with muppet.]

If I had the skills listed in that ad, I'd inquire further.  They sound like brutal professionals who want another brutal professional.  Here's the work, do it, we'll pay you X.  Okay, I'll do it, you pay me X.  Did it?  Good, here's X.  Want another?

Yeah, they're rude, but I suspect that, since coldfusion's a big part of it, they're getting a lot of half-assed dot-commies who did some cf several years ago and are struggling to get by.  That's not a knock against cf, I just suspect that, like Java, there's still a glut of undertrained hacks on the market because it was hot for a while.

Justin Johnson
Friday, August 13, 2004

I agree Matt. Some of the things she mentions as problems they have had are real red flags. Apparently they hire homeless developers who are compulsive liars and who have a lot of other mental problems. The only places I have seen where they tend to have a lot of problems with this sort of employee are places that pay minimum wage or less. Does anyone else agree with me that this is the sort of firm that pays far below the going rate.

It's rather alarming too that they expect you to bid on what are clearly not complete specs and that you only get paid on delivery if it meets all their feelings about whether it matches the ideas they have in their head and only if you deliver on time, regardless of whether or not they made changes to the spec. I doubt few people get paid. They probably take your code and give it to their client and then refuse to pay you on technicalities.

Also, you'd be insane to sign a NDA with such a firm.

Worker Bea
Friday, August 13, 2004

Absolutely Bea, only underpaid, minimum-wage types have mental problems, home problems, personal problems, heavy childcare obligations, interfering spouses, etc.

What a ridiculously ignorant viewpoint.  I suppose you're living a pristine and fantasy-like life.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Bored Bystander,

I am in complete agreement with your insightful assessment.

Worker Bea
Friday, August 13, 2004

Look for the big-haired blonde in the middle to see the author of that ad:

http://www.evolvedsites.com/meettheteam.html

Okay, I liked the ad, but I'm questioning my commitment after seeing all that bad hair.

Justin Johnson
Friday, August 13, 2004

"1) It states the candidate must meet deadlines, without describing how those deadlines are set or whether they're set accurately. As we all know, they almost certainly are not. Simply blaming the programmer for not meeting deadlines is a cop-out."

Try reading critically:
"Understand that a deadline is a deadline and must be met. Missing any deadline without our prior approval means that the project will be reassigned."

*Without our prior approval" - I read this qualifier as meaning you can't call them on the deadline day and say "it won't be ready" - they want prior warning if a project is going to be late.

"2) The company will only pay if the deadline is met, yet seems to be paying casual staff rates, not business rates. That type of fixed price delivery is worth big premiums because it's so hard."

Rates are negotiable. Negotiate. If you can't meet on the rate, walk away. Don't blame the ad. ;-)
(IOW, I agree with you about the rate being low, but that's no refleciton on the ad)

"And of course there's confirmation within the ad. The candidate must be nice to women. Presumably this means to the employer, who is female. This requirement tells us that other programmers have complained about aspects of their job and that those complaints, rather than being resolved, have been met with aggression and hostility, leading to termination."

Or that they've had programmers who can't work well with women. It happens.

I'm not saying you're wrong; I'm just not convinced the ad is an indication they're completely intolerable.

Philo

Philo
Friday, August 13, 2004

+++
I am in complete agreement with your insightful assessment.+++

"I find your assessment insightful because I agree with it completely."

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

OP said this ad was being linked from everywhere - I'd like to see some of the reactions from our collleagues elsewhere. Just judging from the reaction here, this woman is generating a *ton* of publicity, and probably not the sort she was expecting. She's basically washing her dirty laundry in public, however indirectly. And her responses on the Macromedia site will be viewed by potential customers.

I'd be willing to bet if this gets wide exposure that she loses business.

Michael E.
Friday, August 13, 2004

Probably, but not because she did anything wrong, but rather because the business world prefers a pretty lie over anything resembling the truth.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Once there was a boy named muppet and he was put upon by the world....

Phillip Darmon
Friday, August 13, 2004

> but rather because the business world prefers a pretty lie over anything resembling the truth.

I disagree - she's basically admitting that:
a) she doesn't have the staff in-house to handle the workload;
b) she can't attract quality talent to work for her.
c) she has a long history of problems

I certainly wouldn't want to trust her company with an important job.

Michael E.
Friday, August 13, 2004

> I'm amazed at all you people claiming that there is such a demand on qualified programmers going around.  I'm sure not seeing any of it,

Now think harder muppet,..

TryHarder
Friday, August 13, 2004

TryHarder -

You can come up with a better troll than that.  Nice attempt, though.

muppet
Friday, August 13, 2004

Muppet it's you isn't it! You wrote that advert. You are Soibhan Tobin.

Matthew Lock
Friday, August 13, 2004

Other parting shots...

This job ad is a vent, pure and simple.

Someone who has that much energy to waste on venting about their frustrations over past contractors is not taking care of business. Even I wouldn't waste that much energy on Swiftian outrage, especially directed "at" people I wanted to attract to *help* me.

What's good (but still misplaced):

The prohibition against agencies. Hoo-rah, they're scum o' the earth. Ditto the warning against spamming them with the resumes and placeholder crap that make it almost impossible in some instances to be a bona fide job seeker and to get noticed for a position.

The general forthrightness and honesty. It's going to be absolutely miserable and they're very up front about it. :-)

From the perspective of an IC, now:

>> You must also have a telephone number at which we can reach you – and not by appointment only. If you object at all to speaking on the phone, please do NOT respond. If you tell us later that you don't like to talk on the phone or prefer email, you'll be immediately taken off the job.

So you will be an independent contractor for these people, but you will be on "call", expected to pick up even when you're busy working on their stuff? I guess some dumbasses will settle for anything...  Oh, she's a marketing person, so she has no clue about "flow", I forgot. Flow is for the rejects who don't measure up. And part of the IRS criteria for an independent contractor (sets own hours and circumstances for work) is moot.

In general this job posting is all about them and their past failures in dealing with ICs.  They need to hire an employee if they want that much control over the work and its performance.

Bored Bystander
Friday, August 13, 2004

Who would want to work for a company that still uses a flash intro on their website?

MT Heart
Saturday, August 14, 2004

What a pathetic site these guys have!

They have their contact information as image!

Check http://www.evolvedsites.com/bottombit.gif

What if I wanted to copy/paste their contact numbers??

I wonder how they got so many clients!


JD

JD
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Bored's picked up another giveaway in the ad - the fact that boss-lady requires the programmer to be instantly contactable by phone. We can deduce that previous holders of this position have become so stuffed around that they would avoid answering her raucous demands, probably to try to get some work done.

.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

"This person offends my delicate sensibilities, and my ass is getting a bit chafed, so I'm going to extrapolate ridiculous conclusions from a matter-of-fact job posting in order to ridicule and discredit her."

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

It's pretty easy to make some minor tweaks to the language and read this as a personal ad. As such, the tone is more clear, from a desperate woman who is very needy. My guess is that her father didn't pay a lot of attention to her.

Dennis Atkins
Saturday, August 14, 2004

*My* guess is that muppet is somehow *very* close to her...

anon-y-mous cow-ard
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Another one too. Why do we think the programmer used offensive terms for variable names? Maybe he was starting to get really pissed off at boss lady. Anyway, from the examples she gives, it looks like she wanted spamware.

If programming was a proper profession, no-one would be prepared to work for people like this.

.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Nudge nudge, wink wink. Say no more, say no more.

(Required)
Saturday, August 14, 2004

It's wrong on so many levels that I wouldn't know where to begin.

Of course there is value in its frankness, but of course no self-respecting person would answer the add.  Where it does pose some value, however, is in stimulating questions one might consider during ones internal dialog prior to beginning the job search process.  Not just in the obvious ways of what *not* to look for in an employer, but also in the ways one might prepare oneself, particularly when the question at hand is regarding contract work.  Can you sufficiently accomodate the requirements of the contract?  Have you done due dilligence in researching before submitting a bid?

It's a bit of a stretch, but is an inane example that could, perhaps, serve as a reference check, even if expressed as hyperbole.

MacSqueeb
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I don't particularly care about the advert but it does expose them as being a body shop. 

Places that deliver specs to be completed without the involvement of the person who's actually going to be developing them (note the number of times bidding for projects is mentioned), suggests that they churn through a lot of projects and possibly a lot of clients.

I've peripherally been involved with such types in the past and generally find they won't pay for the work that will fulfill the spec properly but will accept the lowest quote and then barrage the developer to get it done.

Simon Lucy
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Just to be ad hominem for the moment, cos its fun, anyone that doesn't know what their own name is and at the same time calls themselves the 'Queen Bee' has issues I'd never want to get near.

Siobhan is the Irish Gael equivalent of Joan (and the female equivalent of John), not Susan.

Susan would be Siui, Sosaidh or Súsanna

Simon Lucy
Saturday, August 14, 2004

The main problem with this ad is that it's emotional. The author was in an emotional state of mind when she wrote it, and wants to evoke an emotional reaction in the reader. These issues of control, dominance, and who's gonna screw who permeate the ad and will permeate the relationship.

I think the wordiness is also an indicator that the author was emotional, and not logical. You could say the same thing in a lot less space, and a lot less negatively, but when you're emotional, you tend to ramble.

Interestingly, muppet's response (the very first reply on this page) is also negative and emotional, despite muppet claiming a few threads earler that he doesn't spout "inflammatory rhetoric" and just "gives an opinion" that's "frank."

Philo - the facts, once distilled may appear reasonable, but the overall tone of the ad is not. Filter out the facts and you're left with mostly emotional language, and all of it negative. "do not" "will delete" "will be reassigned" "will withold food, drink, and love" "will beat you severely around the neck and body" etc.

I almost wish I could get Lee Ermey ( http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000388/ ) to do a dramatic reading of this job ad, and compare it to his performance in Full Metal Jacket ( http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093058/quotes ).

"Were you born worthless, or did you have to work at it?"

www.MarkTAW.com
Saturday, August 14, 2004

contact me@evolvesites.com --- i assume this is the email address of the girl who posted the ad


Saturday, August 14, 2004

Siobhan makes it clear what she doesn't want. I suspect part of the problem she has with programmers is that the specs are probably written the same way.

Anyone who knows anything about spec writing can tell you the problems you get into by requiring what the software will not do.

E.g. "The user cannot enter an incorrect phone number". Okay, I can meet that by making the phone number field readonly...

Tom H
Saturday, August 14, 2004

"I'm questioning my commitment after seeing all that bad hair"

The attempt at a smile is even scarier, it looks like she's covering up some fangs.

Anony Coward
Saturday, August 14, 2004

No, her problem is that she thinks the programming is the easy bit, to be done after Queen Bee has worked her magic, and the Flash guru has worked his spell, and don't give me any of your shit about problems.

Look at her language - "authorise" you to go over the deadline. *Authorise* It implies that going over the deadline is some kind of decision rather than a reality. Yes you can. No you can't.

The sooner clowns like Queen Bee are removed from being in charge of programming, the better it will be.

.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

For once, I agree with Muppet, the job post is obviously from someone who's mad at getting screwed over by a contractor, but the tone is still much better than the "team player needed to work in in a fast paced dynamic environment ....." type job adds most companies put out. The voice may be gruff, even patronizing and insulting  but at least its human

the artist formerly known as prince
Saturday, August 14, 2004

>Are willing to work initially for a short time with no money >upfront realizing that you will only be paid some money >when we see some work done.

I don't think I'll bother learning cold fusion then.

Bill Rayer
Saturday, August 14, 2004

She has bad experiences in the past and is doing the exact wrong thing to fix the problem.

Eric Debois
Saturday, August 14, 2004

No, don't. In my (limited and possibly unfair, but what the heck) experience:

It's a crappy proprietary 'web programming for dummies' type language and server environment which uses lots of special coldfusion tags in the HTML rather than anything resembling proper code. Most coldfusion programmers are old HTML designers who decided to try and up their skills set a bit, and that seems to be the market they aim the product at, rather than serious developers. Learning how to configure it and work with it is way more hassle than it's worth, for such a crappy language.

Matt
Saturday, August 14, 2004

"Siobhan, queen bee envisioner"

DINTGACMTNIJWM*

The whole thing has to be a joke. Right? I mean there aren't really people out there who put that on websites intending to be an advert for their business, are there?


* Damn, I need to go and change my trousers now, I've just wet myself.


Saturday, August 14, 2004

Well, they yanked the ad so I can only infer what it said.

But judging from their website, it would seem that they are another mediocre web design company that is probably struggling to stay afloat.

As such, they are probably looking for the cheapest, fastest work possible. Regardless of what they ad said, I can just look at their website and tell that these probably aren't the kind of people I want to work for.

Most small companies with tight margins and fierce competition are just not worth the efforts of an IC. They are almost always demanding, pay late and fickle. Who knows if these guys are, but statistically speaking, the odds are high.

Not this guy
Saturday, August 14, 2004


Two problems with working for this client:

1. She is a woman who obviously can't control her emotions.

2. She is a marketing person.

No thanks.

Stalin
Saturday, August 14, 2004

What's really amazing is that even after all the flac she's gotten, she's still clueless.

I'm surprised this hasn't shown up on /. yet - geez, wait until the ravening hoards descend on her then....

*evil grin*

Michael E.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

BTW, somebody saved her submission and reposted it after she yanked it - she's still in for it. Silly person - she should know *nothing* dies on the web.

ME
Saturday, August 14, 2004

What an immature discussion. From talking about her hair to assuming she pays low rates and now reposting her ad after she removed it. After reading this thread Im not surprised her ad said what it did. Youve all proved she is right.

Joe (NH)
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Yah. I agree with you Joe. All these ruffled feathers from people fitting the description of what is not wanted. Slam the employer. I suppose you all wont work for an employer with the wrong hairdo or head shape?

The ad only said do what you say youll do and get paid. Simple. Dont waste time otherwise.

LMT
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Michael E and ME (prolly the same guy): get a life. Move on. You gonna harass this person more? You got nothing else to do?

Rick
Saturday, August 14, 2004

The problem in a nutshell is that she acted unprofessionally - she got personal. And then climbed up on her high horse when a few people that had been in the business longer than she's been on the planet chided her about it.

Michael Corleone: "It's nothing personal, just business."

Michael E.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

> harass

I didn't repost it - someone named "Daniel ECP" did.

And I warned her that she was getting a *ton* of negative publicity and was probably going to get hammered and that she might want to do something to smoothe the waters *before* she got hit.

Now if she keeps replying to people and stirring things up, I wash my hands of it.

Michael E.
Saturday, August 14, 2004

What is really funny is only 2-3 people agreed with the ad. I assume they have hired freelancers. Anyone who has ever hired freelancers knows all these things in the ad are true. Try it sometime. Youll see.

More upset people post here about it because there are more workers than employers posting her. And most of the workers do exactly what this ad says they dont want.  Yet yall think youre gods gift. If what the ad said wasnt true yall wouldn't be so upset.

Snowcode
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Michael E did you write to her direct or call her? I did. She is actually cool and straight up. All you do is give her s*it her.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

A couple of years ago there was a notorious personal ad under the URL "maryromantic.com" that got a ton of hits. The lady who ran the site had an excruciatingly specific set of physical, intellectual and moral requirements for her ideal date. She didn't seem to have much luck  attracting compatible applicants.

It's pretty funny reading. The site is archived at:

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.maryromantic.com

Everything said in defense of the employment ad could be said about "maryromantic".

I think some people really love abuse. It sets boundaries for them.

Bored Bystander
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I just saved people three simple steps:

Right click, Googlebar Items, Cached copy of page.

By the way, I think the way a company goes about advertising opportunities within the company says alot about the professionalism and quality you can expect to recieve from said company.  In this case,  I wouldn't touch this company with a long stick even if I could get over how bad their website is.

Daniel ECP
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Really funny how she scares away the valuable ones, and then bitches about how the worthless hacks who take the bait aren't up to any standards.

Alex
Saturday, August 14, 2004


I read the cached version of the post...oh my...oh my..

I can appreciate those people that think that she is just being brutally honest about the job.

Clearly, she has contracted with some real idiots. In fact, judging by her overly emotional post, I have to wonder if she has ever really worked with professionals! If not, I wonder why? Is it because they themselves aren't professionals? Or is it because they simply want to hire the absolutely cheapest work out there and end up getting what they paid for?

Sounds like she has only attracted the bottom feeders in the industry and now she is dealing with the frustration that comes with hiring the wrong people.

Perhaps if she changed things so that she could hire professionals she wouldn't need to rant like a little school child on a forum.

Noah
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Daniel ECP you come across as a very childish coward. You want her to take down the ad. She does. You repost. You want to abuse the woman? Call her. Have you got nothing better to do with your time?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Noah I am going to work for her. Im not the cheapest. You do what she said not to: assume. You know the old saying about that right? ass-u-me

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I didn't ask her to take down the ad.

I simply found the thread here moments ago, took a look, found the subject of the thread had been removed, hit the cached version and reposted it for others to see what all the commotion was about.

And why the hell would I want to call the author exactly.  I have nothing to say to her.

Daniel ECP
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I read the reposted ad (if that's really the ad). To me it's very upfront and honest. The co posting it also has a sense of humour even though they've been burned over and over again. Anyone who ever hired independent contractors for programming work has heard all these excuses before. I was a project manager for 5 yrs and can say they all ring a bell for me. We paid very well but often got the same junk this ad talks about.

Most folks here get their knickers in a twist over honesty? You have spent energy slamming the co., slamming the woman who wrote it, assuming the co. doesn't pay well. The fact is you have done nothing other than make yourselves look like the unprofessional goofs this co. does NOT want to hire.

Codeforhire
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Daniel you seem to have plenty to say about her. Say it to her not behind her back.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

"Noah I am going to work for her. Im not the cheapest. You do what she said not to: assume. You know the old saying about that right? ass-u-me "

Yes, I'm aware of that saying and I'm going to continue to assume that given her hiring experiences that she is making yet another mistake in hiring you. Some people are incapable of making good hiring decisions and she sounds like a classic example.

Noah
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I would hardly call a one paragraph observation about her company "plenty".

I fail to see why you are jumping on my case for simply giving people a way to see what all the fuss is about and giving an opinion.

Daniel ECP
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Noah thanks for the insult. Ask yourself: is it bad hiring decisions or is it that a lot of contract programmers are just bad hires? As someone else said ask anyone who has ever had to hire contract programmers. All these excuses were heard before.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Daniel she deleted teh message. Have some respect and leave it that way. Isnt it illegal to repost what someone else said without their permission?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Illegal to quote something someone said?  Are you kidding me?

Daniel ECP
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Illegal to post, en toto, copyrighted material that is not yours.  Yes.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I completely agree. Siobhan's right. I have tried in the past to hire freelancers - in my case, telemarketers to call prospects for me to generate business. LOSERS! LIARS! BULLSHIT ARTISTS! ALL OF EM.

I would pay. I could pay. I did pay. I treated each of them with respect.

One said he was "generating scripts" and emailed back a pile of crap that was cut and paste directly from my own words. Another accepted 10 hours of paid "training" and never was available to do the work. Then there was an acquaintance who claimed she would call, who could never find the time.

However, there is such a thing as attracting the right kind of talent, and then there is self indulgence and self righteousness.

IE: what if I placed an ad again for a telemarketer and loaded it with a bunch of crap like the ColdFusion ad? I would expect to get bottom of the barrel. Reason: the assholes I had to go through before are NOT THE FAULT of any candidates I contact today.

Being the *exact* type of SW professional that Siobhan *says* that she wants to find - an experienced type with a track record, used to taking responsibility for a result - I still think she went about this absolutely the wrong way.

Hope it works for you, Neo. I really do. 

Bored Bystander
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Since by quoting her I gave her full credit for this particular classic piece of literature, I think I am safe.

Daniel ECP
Saturday, August 14, 2004


"Illegal to post, en toto, copyrighted material that is not yours.  Yes. "

Oh gees, now Muppet is an expert in law too. If you post something in a discussion forum, you can't turn around and claim a copyright on it. Not any more than Al Gore can claim he invented the Internet and then tell everyone else that they can't repeat his foible.

John Tarkin
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I doubt Siobhan will want to claim authorship in order to assert any sort of copyright.  IANAL - but I think you're pretty safe due to circumstances. She would probably prefer to  maintain that she never said those things.

In this instance she would be wise to distance herself from the entire mess.

Bored Bystander
Saturday, August 14, 2004

actually, I'm fairly certain that any work, regardless of the medium it's published in, carriees an implicit copyright.  Although, as you said, I'm no law expert.  You certainly can copyright online content, though.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Oh my God. A huge part of me says say nothing but I have to.

Those that posted here, those that attacked the person posting on Macromedia forum, have you read what you wrote? Have you looked at how you come across? All the person did is point out that they don't want losers. And let's face it there are a lot of script kiddies out there who call themselves a programmer but have no clue what they're doing. All this person wants is someone honest. You all gang up like losers. And I guess you're the people she talked about. She has probably hired you all before. Is that what you're mad about?

MarylandProgrammer
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Bored bystander she deleted it because she found people for the work me being one.  She has other things to do like assign work to me. Do you have anything else to do but sling insults at her?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Neo = Siobhan?

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Bored Bystander what if you tried getting marketers using a similar ad? Maybe you'd have better luck.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Muppet I thought you were her?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

>> Bored Bystander what if you tried getting marketers using a similar ad? Maybe you'd have better luck.

Neo, if I felt that I had to do that, I would rather go out of business. That's honestly NOT how I want to be seen. If there's that much tension and mutual suspicion in a proposed relationship, I don't think it's worth it.

Vaya con Dios, dude. You'll need Him...

Bored Bystander
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Ill let you know. She gave me a piece of work to be done. She said its about 3-5 hrs.  I think its 2-3 hrs after looking. Spec was very clear.  She wants to know how much and my deadline to do it. I said Monday. She said ok. We are signing a contract.  I start working. If this works she assigns the remainder of the job (75-80 more hours). Sounds good so far.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Oh look, the Queen Bee's little friends have arrived to defend her. Is that the flash guru and the other legends in their own lunch times?

Guys, it's time for you clowns to get out of the way so professionals can do this work.


Saturday, August 14, 2004

"the Queen Bee's little friends have arrived to defend her"

Huh? It was an ad expressing the experiences she (and many others) wishes not to repeat; while it turned some people off, others thought it worthwhile to respond. That's been the story of this entire thread, not something new.

What's new is that we have an actual respondant. Please do let us know how it goes...

mb
Saturday, August 14, 2004

alleged respondant.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

mb, I don't anyone smart enough to know about JOS would actually accept that role, let alone come here and defend it without any good reasons. What we've got here is little Queen Bee and her dumb minions.


Saturday, August 14, 2004

Now Im stupid?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

No, you're not stupid. I think for website developers, a client's sense of honesty is very important. I think she was effective in communicating that. In a midwestern US way.

Neo, I'd be glad if you (or anyone else dealing with that company) could talk about the difficulties of implementing basic software engineering practices like source control in that company. I think it would be comforting if they could look at Subversion and see there's some progress, and the stuff seems to be readable...

I don't know their cost structure, but it can't take more than 30 minutes a day for one person to look at peoples' checkins.

Tayssir John Gabbour
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Incidentally, I am not taking any sort of position on this issue; it's not lost on me that she'd never talk this way to clients, even if she's had bad ones.

The engineering aspect is the interesting part to me.

Tayssir John Gabbour
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Tayssir, I doubt the web shop even knows what software engineering is. I suspect it's the type of place that crows about the great graphics design and then treats the main stuff - the programming - as a trifle to be done as cheaply as possible.

As is so often the case, the complaints about programmers are actually complaints about their own incompetence.


Saturday, August 14, 2004

To the last oh so cowardly anonymous poster: my experience is that they are not cheap. Just sick of idiots and liars.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

oh and btw anonymous one, they have full-time programmers on staff. They have a ton of work right now. Some needs to be outsourced. I spoke with one guy who wrote the original code I'm working on. He was cool.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I bet he was cool.  You're probably him.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Yah muppet. Sure. You jealous or something?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I know you are jealous I got the job.

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

happened on this forum today cos of this advert. is this all it is: bashing and flaming? if you dont like the adver dont apply. whats the avg age here: 6.5? actually me kids dont fight this much :-)

JohnH20
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Neo, you know what you sound like? You sound like a Flash guru who works in a web shop that doesn't understand programming, and has a superiority complex, and now you've run into trouble because you're dealing with people smarter than you are.


Saturday, August 14, 2004

That sounds about right.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

This is hilarious.

All of a sudden the thread switches from mostly thoughtful and detailed commentary into short, childish, grammatically unhinged comments defending the advertisement.

I wonder what might have happened? I wonder who all these new "people" could be? I wonder if "they" realise the difference between this and the average internet forum.

Again, this is too funny.

Aussie Bloke
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Could be cos its all talked out huh?

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

This explains why the website looks like a FrontPage template.

muppet
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Several people have suggested that Siobhan's methods will ensure she keeps attracting poor-quality people, and that perhaps her methods may even be responsible for the bad experiences she has had in the past.

Then someone pops up on the forum claiming he is now working for her, using words and phrases like "cos", "btw", "huh", "cool", and "i know you are jealous".

QED.

Aussie Bloke
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Neo said "my experience is that they are not cheap. Just sick of idiots and liars."

It seems early days to be talking about your experience with the company. Surely you've only been dealing with them for, oh, a day or two. I imagine that the previous hires started out with both parties being happy too.

Good luck though. And let us know how things turn out in when the contract is up. I'm sure something with the frankness and honesty of Bored Bystander's other thread would be interesting to everyone around here.

_
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I think there are more "comments" on this thread than on any other thread I've seen on this forum. The ad in question was obviously written by someone who has been burned and possibly "scorned" ("hell hath no fury ..."). She has certainly generated a lot of attention by posting that ad.  I can't help but wonder if it's worth all the effort that is going into the voluminous responses though. 

Was she emotional when she wrote it? I'm certain of that fact. Interestingly enough, I seem to recall her posting a very similar classified a few years back. It didn't generate all this hullaballoo.

I'm not sure if her "approach" is effective or not. In one response (now marked "removed"), she claimed it was.  She sparks a lot of controversy, that's for sure. Does she find the one perfect applicant amongst those who respond? I don't know.  Or does she scare of some "perfect applicants" that may well have responded? Again, I don't know. 

I do wonder if she truly responds to everyone who applies. If so, does she receive many responses?

To each his own here. She may come across as patronizing or it may be taken as very honest.  Either way, criticizing her hair is stooping far below the level to which you believe she has stooped.

Pat

Patrick
Saturday, August 14, 2004

I will let you know exactly what happens.

Aussie Bloke: Sorry about my "cos" etc. I think faster than I type. But Im a good programmer with valid references, not the "wrong type".

Neo
Saturday, August 14, 2004

Well in that case Neo, good luck to you, and let us all know how it goes.

Aussie Bloke
Saturday, August 14, 2004

My penis is so small I can't find it.

Matt
Sunday, August 15, 2004

I have no penis, so I play with my dog's.

muppet
Sunday, August 15, 2004

To those who support this Envisioneer, understand this: freelancers are freelancers for a reason.

They don't work well with fixed ours, direct interference, etc.

If you want freelancers, understand you'll be attracting exactly this set of people.

Treat them like Tom Cruise was treating Rainman: he was a retard, but only he could count 1,000 cards.

"My main man." Hold their hand. Warm up their soup. This is management.

Alex
Sunday, August 15, 2004

Fuck you Alex.  You don't even make sense.  To whom are you preaching? 

muppet
Sunday, August 15, 2004

On second thought, maybe you're the rainman Alex?  Your message was about as confused as one of his monologues.

muppet
Sunday, August 15, 2004

I understood his point.  I don't completely agree, but it was simple enough to understand.

Daniel ECP
Sunday, August 15, 2004

What was it then explain.

muppet
Sunday, August 15, 2004

I've only been here a short time but it is already apparent to me that this forum is far above your intellectual level, muppet.

Daniel ECP
Sunday, August 15, 2004

What's this Alex, a competition to see if you can be more partonising than the original job posting?

Think the whole thread has kinda degenerated now, let's just leave it eh?

Matt
Sunday, August 15, 2004

Alex, do you know Neo?


Sunday, August 15, 2004

except that the muppet you've been speaking to isn't me.  But good call, Daniel.

muppet
Sunday, August 15, 2004

"They have their contact information as image!"

Probably as an anti-spam measure. I changed the e-mail address at might site to a .jpg and after a couple of weeks I stopped getting any spam at all.

Mr Jack
Monday, August 16, 2004

"This is management" -- that's a line from Peopleware.

As for the rest, I didn't expect our "generic" muppet to feel threatened by the Rainman association, sorry about that.

Alex
Monday, August 16, 2004

I think you'd have a better chance of getting the job if you get magnetized.

http://www.getmagnetized.com/

K

Kevin Bourrillion
Friday, August 20, 2004

i would like to know how Neo is getting on


Friday, August 20, 2004

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