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Microsoft Version Control Systems Concluded

In continuation to:

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=70877&ixReplies=8

It seems that there's a new version control system coming out from Microsoft:

http://www.contactor.se/~dast/svnusers/archive-2004-06/0421.shtml    

(the URL to MSDN is a bit broken there. Here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/59q3t )

On the IRC the Microsoft employee said that the Team System team have been dogfooding it for the Microsoft employees for quite a while now. I guess only time can tell how good it is.

Shlomi Fish
Thursday, August 05, 2004

I see it includes work item tracking ... so perhaps it will "compete" with SourceGear *and* with FogBUGZ.

Christopher Wells
Thursday, August 05, 2004

As a guy who's worked mosty in the *nix world, I've always wondered why more Microsoft dev environments don't use CVS.

Not only is it free but also (and more importantly) it works as it's supposed to.

Why not CVS?

Python, Monty
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Because Visual SourceSafe, as crappy as it is, is included in most enterprise licensing agreements. That makes it just as free as CVS. Since it integrates seamlessly with so many other Microsoft software used in the enterprise, it's an acceptable solution for many outfits.

I hated it with a passion. I wanted CVS badly but we ended up going with SourceGear's Vault.

Bill Brown
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Second that on Visual Source Safe being a pile of invasive, clunky, restrictive, turgid crap.

It's easily the worst source code management system I have had the displeasure of using and should have been put out to pasture years ago.

TheGeezer
Thursday, August 05, 2004

CVS commits are not atomic. That's really a problem when working on lots of files and meeting a failure.

I use CVS... because WinCVS is very useful (Subversion existing UIs are really no match...)

Commercial alternatives just don't provide enough benefits for us now (A team of 2 and some contributors...)

RedFox
Friday, August 06, 2004

Christopher Wells: "I see it includes work item tracking ... so perhaps it will "compete" with SourceGear *and* with FogBUGZ.".

Didn't you witness the storm when that broke a while back. Probably the most interesting part of the whole thing was the contrast in how Joel and Eric dealt with it. Very illuminating.

On SourceSafe, I hate it too, but I'm old enough to remember when Microsoft's only product in this space was Delta !!! Anyone who can remember those days would probably, like me, have seen SourceSafe as a truly luxurious upgrade. Little did we know...

Nemesis
Friday, August 06, 2004

> As a guy who's worked mosty in the *nix world, I've
> always wondered why more Microsoft dev environments
> don't use CVS.
>
> Not only is it free but also (and more importantly)
> it works as it's supposed to.

> Why not CVS?

You've always wondered because you were oblivious
to the fact that CVS does not scale.

The company I am interning at has a ~ 100 million LOC rapidly changing codebase. It had to switch from CVS to Perforce _primarily_ because CVS did not scale. Mind that
this company is a Linux shop.

Indeed, such issues are hard to understand if you are
running CVS on your own machine with a project or two
in repository.

I suggest you take a look at this presentation to get a
feel of the industry scale of things:

http://www.usenix.org/events/usenix-win2000/invitedtalks/lucovsky.ppt

The presentation only covers the Windows team. However, as we all know Microsoft's codebase is MUCH larger.

I will leave the conclusions for you make.

Pavel Levin
Friday, August 06, 2004

Also, when you are working with management and doing technology planning "works as supposed to" usually doesn't cut it. You need hard cost-benefit analysis backed by real metrics.

Pavel Levin
Friday, August 06, 2004

"~ 100 million LOC rapidly changing codebase"

That's impressive, what is the project Pavel, if you don't mind me asking ?

Nemesis
Friday, August 06, 2004

Why don't we use CVS? - because it doesn't just come in a box and install and is plagued by a bewildering assortment of different GUIs.

Mr Jack
Friday, August 06, 2004

100 million lines?  Holy crap that's huge. 

christopher (baus.net)
Friday, August 06, 2004

Well it's the complete code base of the company, e.g., all products.

Pavel Levin
Saturday, August 07, 2004

The company is Amazon.com. If you are wondering.

Pavel Levin
Saturday, August 07, 2004

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