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Question about FogCreek

I just read the SoftwareCEO review and followed one of it's links to Joel's guides on salaries and coming up with the right amount.

Under benefits, he lists six weeks of vacation, and three weeks of training time.

Is that for real? That's an amazing amount!! Joel's developers are extremely lucky.

Matt B
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

"Training time"?  What's that?  My company assumes you'll learn all they need you to know about new techonologies by magic, I think.

Fiddle-De-Do
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

"Training Time" is from 7PM to 9AM here. :-)

Ricardo Antunes da Costa
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Someone made a cogent argument for longer vacation time.

6 weeks vs 2 weeks is 200% more vacation time.

It's 8% less work time. It provides an enormous benefit to your employees for very little extra money/lost productivity/whatever.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

And 8% is really so small that it's lost in the wash: imagine for example how much extra productivity they might get from muppet, if he respected his employers enough to work for them full-time while he was working for them.

The issue is a deal-breaker for me: in the past I've quit my job only in order to take a holiday (so benefits like that may affect whether a person will work for you at all).

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

+++imagine for example how much extra productivity they might get from muppet, if he respected his employers enough to work for them full-time while he was working for them.+++

I'm sorry, but some of you people are just idiots.  If you'd read completely anything I've written, you'd have seen that I DO indeed do 40 hours worth of work for my employer, every week.  I just don't happen to do all of it between 9-5, M-F.

I know this is a difficult concept for you drones to get, but hey, that's why I'm happy and you're jealous.

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

You quit to take just one day off?


8% might not sound like that much productivity lost, but how many developers does FogCreek have? Isn't it under a dozen? 8% times 10-12 people is almost one extra employee.

Matt B
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Oddly, I don't measure productivity in days worked, but in how much work gets done.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

It's a trade-off.  His employees get extra vacation time, which contributes to improved morale and productivity when they're not on vacation.  Plus, it fits in with Joel's strategy of hiring top-notch personnel, since this is an extra bonus attracting those people to Fog Creek.

Kevin
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

***Oddly, I don't measure productivity in days worked, but in how much work gets done.***


BLING BLING BLING

or hours worked, or minutes... or whether you worked 8 hours consecutively while purging unpure, non-work thoughts from your mind via self-administered electroshock therapy...

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

> You quit to take just one day off?

No; I quit to take a multi-week summer holiday, at the end of my 2nd year of putting up with 2 weeks of holiday per year.

> 8% might not sound like that much productivity lost, but how many developers does FogCreek have?

Like I said, it's a deal-breaker for me: as my employer you can "lose" 8% or 100%, your choice. I like work, but I like some variety too, and 50 weeks per year in the same office just isn't enough variety.

Then again I don't require my employer to give every employee a 6-week holiday: just me, when I've earned it.

> If you'd read completely anything I've written, you'd have seen that I DO indeed do 40 hours worth of work for my employer, every week.

I read your saying today that you don't bother to produce 2N even though you could ... partly because you wouldn't be rewarded for it.

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

...and?

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

DON'T BELIEVE WHAT YOU READ. BELIEVE WHAT YOU SEE AND EXPERIENCE FOR YOURSELF.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I see what I read and I experience reading it.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

MARKTAW:

BEING A SMARTYPANTS EH?

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I replied with all the seriousness I thought your post deserved.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

THERE WAS THIS DUDE BABAK WHO USED TO WORK FOR FC. EVER OCCURED TO YOU WHY HE LEFT? HUH? HUH?

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

OH YEAH? NEWS FLASH: YOUR RESPONSE SUCKED.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

That's ok, your post sucked too.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Here in Engerland, we are amazed at your paltry 2 weeks a year holidays.

That's it?

70-80 years on this planet and you get 2 weeks off a year?

A Frenchman once told me "We are hopeless at fixing things - look at the Americans - they can fix anything. But we know how to live. They don't know how to live".

Maybe Joel is just introducing a work-life balance over the pond.  I mean - look at all those guys setting up their blogs to deliver a blog a day automatically when they are on holiday. Don't get me wrong - that is commitment. But really ...

Take four weeks and holiday in France. Everything shuts at lunchtime, excepts cafes and bars and parks. No shops open on Sunday (gee, no mall?). No eat'n'go. Want a coffee? - then sit down and have one. What's the rush?

Not a great plan for world domination, but it may provide a happier life.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

ALL CAPS GUY wrote: "EVER OCCURED TO YOU WHY HE LEFT? HUH? HUH?"

Uh, no, since I've never heard of him before. Perhaps if you provided some information we'd all experience the revelation we should.

Exception guy
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Off to look -

Another good reason why I don't bust my stones at work.

=]

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Two weeks vacation?  I get 40 hours, where do you work?

Six weeks is fantasy land

Berlin Brown
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

... at least find an alternative to aggressively flaming eachother.

relax ...

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

CAN'T YOU JUST TO A SIMPLE SEARCH. ASK MARKTAW, HE'S A SMARTYPANTS.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I love the concept of Siesta... work a little, rest a little, work a little, and the whole world does it. Or at least the community. Americans are stupid.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I get 18 days vacation and 6 "sick" days where I work, along with 10 company-sanctioned holidays.

Not too shabby, but I could do with some more.  :)

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Yes

Many of the people in Latin Europe use siestas for lunchtime sex.

Better than sitting in a stuffed office in London or New York gulping down a plastic-wrapped sandwich reading e-mail and blogs.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

IN AMERICA WE TAKE PRIDE IN BEING "EFFICIENT" AND "PRODUCTIVE" - HENCE 70 HOURS WORK WEEK WHILE THE REST OF THE WORLD LIVE THEIR LIFE, WE WORK OUR LIVES.

THAT'S IT I AM GOING TO FRANCE.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

They might prefer it if you did not yell so much, Monsieur

Yeah, take a break from running the world! Only a few of you really get the big benefit from it.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Running the world, that is, not taking a break.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

"Off to look at the stars tonight"

DON'T GET FUNNY WITH ME. CAPICE?

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Je ne comprenez pas.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I used to work at a place where I had six week's vacation (university job).  I grew to hate the environment enough that six weeks time off did not compensate.  Besides I never took more than three or four weeks of it anyway.

Now I have three weeks but am much happier overall.

Aside on all the talk about how great the French have it:  The French would today be speaking German or Russian, and working as virtual slaves under totalitarian rule, if not for the United States.

AMS
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

IN APRIL I WAS AT LIBERTY ISLAND AND I WAS TOLD THAT FRENCH BROUGHT THE STATUE TO AMERICA.

ARE YOU SURE YOU WORKED FOR A UNIVERSITY? YOU SEEM REALLY OUT OF IT.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Anyone remember salad cream?

Simon Lucy
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Indeed - they get other people to fight their wars for them.

;)

PS - we all know what the US has done for the world.

I surely hope that means we are not forbidden from surveying the benefits of different cultures throughout the world.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

yeah, the US did a pretty good job of further destabilizing the Middle East, running an extended PR campaign for terrorist recruitment, and radicalizing thousands of formerly moderate Iraqis and others.

We ought to be commended.

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

"we all know what the US has done for the world. "

YES, WE INVADE OTHER COUNTRIES AND BASICALLY EVERYBODY, AT THIS MOMENT, ON THE FACE OF PLANET HATES OUR GUTS.

THERE YOU GO.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Hmm, I would not be so down about it. It is going too far to say everyone hates you. Remember: the world still has an insatiable demand for American culture.

Being in such a powerful position brings with it unbelievable dilemmas and no-win situations. I think the last four years would have challenged anyone.

Off to look at the stars tonight
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

but especially Dubya.

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I corresponded for a while with someone from this forum who was an American in Japan.

He told me that the older Japanese hated Americans because they saw them as competitors, while the younger Japanese loved us because of our culture.

It's not impossible for that dychotemy to exist in much of the rest of the world. Let's face it, were the loud, boistrous guy who introduces our friends as "Meet France, he couldn't win a war of words" and everyone has to have a reaction to us because we're loud, brash, and leave no corner of the world untouched.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

plus there's also the whole waging illegal wars and slaughtering civilians thing.

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

It won't be illegal once the US Government makes all the laws.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Well at least we have something to look forward to.

muppet
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

And that'll be the end of Siesta for everyone.

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

What's up with the name "Fog Creek"?

There are no Foggy Creeks in New York City.

M. Night ShammalammaDingDong
Wednesday, August 04, 2004


This thread is finished!!

Hitler
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Damn, have we reached "1" already?

www.MarkTAW.com
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Most of the spaniard living at big cities don't do siesta anymore, but they still like to hang out until late at night drinking at the bars, therefore there's reall worry that they will suffer from sleep deprivation.

Ismail
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

I read in Time or Newsweek that the French have 35 hours/week and 2 weeks vacation.

Garibald
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Do the 6 weeks (or 2 weeks or 40 hours) carry over to the next year if you don't use them?

In Australia, the law is 4 weeks per year for full time employees - and it carries over (some companies put a limit on how much you can carry over some dont) - but at the moment I have 8 weeks saved up (can't always think of something to do for 4 weeks a year). And the law is that when I leave they have to pay that out in full as if I had worked those 8 weeks.

Is that the case in USA or Britain?

Chris
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Remember, we have 50 states over here.  Each with their own laws.

Oren Miller
Wednesday, August 04, 2004

Dim oPoster as Poster
dim oPost as Post

  Set oPoster = Poster("SOUND OF MUSIC")

  For Each oPost in oPoster.Posts
    StrConv(oPost.Text,vbProperCase)
  Next oPost

Norrick
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Dead set, imagine having only two weeks holidays.
This is why I am becoming a teacher. 12 weeks holiday per year!!! paid maternity leave. 7years family leave....

Aussie Chick
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Hey Aussie Chick, I know that 12 weeks is the legend, but knowing many teachers I know that unfortunately this isn't the case....



.....it is only like 8 weeks holiday per year :) damn teachers. They teach each other to say things like "I was up all night marking", "I spent all the holiday preparing this semesters lessons"...

And then there are the strikes (well in NSW at least)...

Chris
Thursday, August 05, 2004

And what do you mean by 7 *years* family leave? Is that suppose to be months or weeks? or are you referring to long service leave after 7 years?

Chris
Thursday, August 05, 2004

We all should have a siesta sex when John K is in the White House in Novmber.

It should be a national hump day.

heehaaa
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Americans deserve all the shit thrown at them. Look who they picked as their leader.

Who's your daddy huh?
Thursday, August 05, 2004

Fact is, they didn't pick him. The judiciary did.

caltrop
Thursday, August 05, 2004

America is just ripe for its first Coupe d'Etat.

Alardo
Thursday, August 05, 2004

> 6 weeks vs 2 weeks is 200% more vacation time.

That Joel is such a lazy git :-)

> He told me that the older Japanese hated Americans because they saw them as competitors, while the younger Japanese loved us because of our culture.

It always makes me laugh to hear of a thing called American culture.

> Many of the people in Latin Europe use siestas for lunchtime sex.

/me books one way ticket to Spain

> Take four weeks and holiday in France.

B..b..but it is full of Frogs! And Spain is full of Dagos! Damn. There goes my siesta plan.

May contain nuts.
Thursday, August 05, 2004

------Fact is, they didn't pick him. The judiciary did. --------

No, we did pick him.  The judiciary simply upheld the law regarding elections.

Elections are about counting votes, not trying to dissern the voters 'intent' by looking at a 'dimpled chad'.  Have you ever used a punch ballot?  About the simplist thing you can use.

And more so, if you follow the recount that the did after the fact, just to see how it would turn out (using the sunshine act in florida), you will see that GWB would have remained the canidate with the most votes.

Billy
Thursday, August 05, 2004

I was really excited to log in and see that this thread got 62 responses  but instead it's just a bunch of stupid posts from  SOUND OF MUSIC.


sigh

I was looking forward to reading more about how sweet FogCreek employees have it.

Matt B
Thursday, August 05, 2004

I wonder if it is actually true though.

The linked article actually says that the benefits are their intention when they have enough cash.

The whole (linked) article seems a bit pie in the sky really, when even now they only have a handful of employees.

Nemesis
Thursday, August 05, 2004

"Elections are about counting votes, not trying to dissern the voters 'intent' by looking at a 'dimpled chad'. "

Actually, Gore won the popular vote with a larger overall percentage than Bush.

www.MarkTAW.com
Thursday, August 05, 2004

SO MARKTAW:

YOU ARE SAYING WHAT? WE ARE FUCKED NO MATTER WHAT? HUH? HUH?

SOUND OF MUSIC
Thursday, August 05, 2004

NORRICK:

ARE YOU TRYING TO GET FUNNY WITH ME? DON'T MESS WITH ME MAN!!!

SOUND OF MUSIC
Thursday, August 05, 2004

What's a Coupe d'Etat? A government sports car?

.
Friday, August 06, 2004

---------Actually, Gore won the popular vote with a larger overall percentage than Bush. ------------

Perhaps, but that isn't how an election is won in the United States.

It has been that way for a long, long time.

Have you seen a breakout of the counties that voted for Bush over Gore?  Based on that, the majority DID vote for Bush (I am not suggesting that we go by land mass).

What I am saying is that we have a system, and the system isn't broken.

http://actsbbs.net/Vote.jpg

Billy
Friday, August 06, 2004

"What I am saying is that we have a system, and the system isn't broken."

WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS JUST A BALDERDASH. YOU NEED AT LEAST TWO SHOTS OF ESPRESSO AND THEN COME BACK AND READ WHAT YOU'VE JUST SAID.

SOUND OF MUSIC
Friday, August 06, 2004

I know what I said.

I think you need a shot of history to learn that we are a republic, not a democracy.

Billy
Friday, August 06, 2004

Republic and democracy are mutually exclusive how?

Peter
Monday, August 09, 2004

Under a democracy, the majority of votes wins.

A republic ensures that the whole country, not just the population centers (NYC, Chicago, LA, etc) carry an election.

See Electoral College.

Billy
Monday, August 09, 2004

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