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If you're sick of reading about IQ, then why did you click on this message??

You often hear the old saying that the brain is like a muscle and it improves with exercise. Well this old saying might be true, but our educational system acts like IQ is carved in stone.
As someone mentioned earlier, you don't expect kids who watch TV all day to be good athletes, no matter what their DNA is like. Of course exercise can't make you taller, but it can drastically increase your strength and agility. This is obvious, but we seldom think of intelligence in this way.
I know I increased my IQ by a whole lot between high school and 20 years later, just by getting interested in certain subjects and reading and thinkinb about them. I'm not sure, but it could have gone from 130 to 160 or more.

Another point is that I notice people where I work who think they are great geniuses, but as soon as they become stressed out and over-worked they forget things and become irrational.

Dr. Real PC
Monday, July 19, 2004

I had a friend who used to comment that "Anyone can go from genius to idiot in 1 second."

It's the other direction that's really hard.

Aaron F Stanton
Monday, July 19, 2004

you know.. posting the same topic over and over may be a sign that you're a bit obsessive and most likely psychotic.

muppet
Monday, July 19, 2004

"Another point is that I notice people where I work who think they are great geniuses, but as soon as they become stressed out and over-worked they forget things and become irrational."

So what is your point?  Don't you ever get stressed, tired or emotional?  Or are you not human? These things naturally have a negative effect on anyone's thinking patterns.

DJ
Monday, July 19, 2004

The first time through, I read the message as "getting high in school"  rather than "in high school".

Must be flashbacks.

MilesArcher
Monday, July 19, 2004

You know you increased your IQ but you don't know from what to what?  I assume then you didn't verify this with an actual IQ test.  If not then how the heck to you know?  What is your basis for stating that one can increase one's IQ by working out his brain?  I thought that was the point of IQ as opposed to knowledge or skill; it stays fairly constant after childhood.

I have read that childhood nutrition can have an effect on IQ but never that, for example, going to school and studying real hard, does.

Be honest with yourself.  Aren't you just making things up?  Aren't you just stating your feelings and prejudices as established facts?  Aren't you really not a doctor but really wish you were?  Aren't you just a little obsessed with this whole IQ thing?  You should go read steve sailor.  That'll get you good and pissed (angry to our UK friends.  Not drunk)

name withheld out of cowardice
Monday, July 19, 2004

Dr. Real PC is a troll. A very subtle one.

Troll Detector
Monday, July 19, 2004

In my opinion, you can increase your IQ, as measured by the tests.

The tests test certain operations. If you train, you can train those operations.

Just my humble opinion. :)

MX
Monday, July 19, 2004

[You know you increased your IQ but you don't know from what to what?  I assume then you didn't verify this with an actual IQ test.]

I never had an IQ test, or else never was told what it was. I'm going by SAT and GRE scores, which you can translate into IQ.
(Yes, SAT and GRE are IQ tests, just with different scoring.)

Dr. Real PC
Monday, July 19, 2004

[So what is your point?  Don't you ever get stressed, tired or emotional?  Or are you not human? These things naturally have a negative effect on anyone's thinking patterns.]

This is more evidence that IQ is mostly mental, not mostly physical. The people I am referring to are very arrogant and superior-acting. But their superior intelligence is mostly the result of concentration. As soon as they are over-whelmed it goes out the window.

Dr. Real PC
Monday, July 19, 2004

The SAT is too based on knowledge and learned skills (math, verbal) to accurately equate to IQ.

JWA
Monday, July 19, 2004

And man, for something you seem so fixated on, you'd think that you'd at least go and take one of the tests.

Have you read The Bell Curve? Sounds like it would be very interesting to you.

JWA
Monday, July 19, 2004

At my first job out of college there was a guy who was very proud of being in Mensa. He spent most of his time reading science fiction instead of doing his work. But I remember him most for getting drunk at the office Christmas party and wetting his pants.

Tom H
Monday, July 19, 2004

What I'm trying to show is that guys in IT who think they are better than everyone because they have learned some things and are interested (or obsessed), are not really as different as everyone thinks they are.
That's my opinion anyway. I have been thinking about it because I'm sick and tired of their attitude. I don't act smart and superior, even though I could.

Dr. Real PC
Monday, July 19, 2004

I was not referring to anyone here, although I guess I could have been. I'm talking about the ones I know.

Dr. Real PC
Monday, July 19, 2004

d00d,

I read your email.

You're that dimwit seated over by that guy who plays his music too loud.

Real PC's IT department
Monday, July 19, 2004

"I never had an IQ test, or else never was told what it was. I'm going by SAT and GRE scores, which you can translate into IQ.
(Yes, SAT and GRE are IQ tests, just with different scoring.)"

Haven't most standardized tests, like the SAT, ACT, GRE, etc. been largely discredited as accurate measures of intelligence?  Isn't that why they're no longer accepted for admission to Mensa (not to mention being completely ignored by people that study this sort of thing)?

You really ought to get a *real* IQ test before you start making recurring threads about your own exceptional IQ.


Monday, July 19, 2004

Doc, I'm getting a sense across your posts that you don't have much education, and you're feeling really inadequate about that, and that you're angry with the people at work because they don't respect you as much as you presume they ought to, and you blame that on your educational circumstance, so you crave external validation to dismiss their opinion of you.

How close am I?

badabing
Monday, July 19, 2004

I increased my IQ from 74 to 208 by taking vitamins, eating right and getting enough exercise. You can too. No joke! It was actually tested and then verified by three independent auditors!

Supergenius
Monday, July 19, 2004

The actual defintion for IQ is:

a measure of a person's intelligence as indicated by an
intelligence test; the ratio of a person's mental age to
their chronological age (multiplied by 100)

115 starts the "No restrictions on learning" category.

160 actually starts the "exceptionally gifted" category.

I'm guessing the odds of you moving from 130 to 160 are extremely slim.

In any case, you definately have issues involving this number. It's not like this is the difference between happiness and misery in life.

IMHO all measuring - horsepower in a car, IQ, RAM, etc. is a phallic thing. Perhaps you're compensating for something by claiming a high IQ?

Sources:
http://www.geocities.com/rnseitz/Definition_of_IQ.html
http://www.hoagiesgifted.org/we_have_learned.htm

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, July 19, 2004

Mark is incorrect. It was once a ratio, about 75 years ago, but it is now an indication of standard deviations from the normal. 15 points on most tests is 1SD, on the more reputable Stanford-Binet, it is 17 pts.

Dave Thomas
Monday, July 19, 2004

Mark, that first link ha some racist shit about blacks being less smart than whites. I'm sure you didn't catch that stuff yourself before posting it but I just want to confirm that you don't believe in that racist stuff.  Thanks.

Tony Maxwell
Monday, July 19, 2004

Oh. I just skipped ahead to the charts. My bad.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, July 19, 2004

I used to think being smart was a big deal.  Then one day I was smart enough to do some math.

Say I'm in the 99th percentile of smartness by some imaginary standardized measurement.  That means I'm smarter than 99% of the population.  The population of the U.S. is about 300 million people, which means I'm smarter than 297 million people there, and the population of the world is 6 billion people, which means I'm smarter than 5.94 billion of them.

But it also means that there are 3 million people in the U.S., and 60 million people in the world, roughly as smart as me.  Heck, there'd be ten million of them in India alone, which explains why our jobs are going there.  :(

Which means that while being smart is better than not being smart, joining Mensa ain't really all that special; 60 million people in the world would qualify.  (Actually 120 million, since they take the top 2%, not just the top 1%.)

It also means that being smart doesn't guarantee success in itself, because even if companies did hire the smartest people first, there are enough of them around for there to be competition for the best jobs.

In a way it's a bit depressing that it's not really that easy, but if this is how the world is, better to know it than not to.

Kyralessa
Monday, July 19, 2004

I never did know what 1 SD was in IQ tests, and it seems that as long as we're measuring things you really ought to know. Does anyone have a RELIABLE (apparently Google didn't help me this time) source of information about this kind of thing?

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, July 19, 2004

"I know I increased my IQ by a whole lot between high school and 20 years later, just by getting interested in certain subjects and reading and thinkinb about them. I'm not sure, but it could have gone from 130 to 160 or more."

I know I got a lot taller between high school and twenty years later, mostly by thinking tall thoughts.

Cognitive Dissonance
Monday, July 19, 2004

Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful people with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan "press on" has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race.
    - Calvin Coolidge (1872 - 1933)

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, July 19, 2004

Well in that case, let's just compare dicks.

muppet
Monday, July 19, 2004

I know I would gladly give IQ points to have better social skills.....

Rather B. Dumber
Monday, July 19, 2004

Standard deviation is a statistical thing. The general definition is as follows:

<statistics> (SD) A measure of the range of values in a set of
numbers. Standard deviation is a statistic used as a measure
of the dispersion or variation in a distribution, equal to the
square root of the arithmetic mean of the squares of the
deviations from the arithmetic mean.

The standard deviation of a random variable or list of numbers
(the lowercase greek sigma) is the square of the variance.
The standard deviation of the list x1, x2, x3...xn is given by
the formula:

sigma = sqrt(((x1-(avg(x)))^2 + (x1-(avg(x)))^2 +
... + (xn(avg(x)))^2)/n)

The formula is used when all of the values in the population
are known. If the values x1...xn are a random sample chosen
from the population, then the sample Standard Deviation is
calculated with same formula, except that (n-1) is used as the
denominator.

--

On a normalized bell curve with the total area under the curve adding up to 1, 1sd, 2sd, 3sd for normal etc all fall at certain places on the x axis.

Dave Thomas
Monday, July 19, 2004

"there are 3 million people in the U.S., and 60 million people in the world, roughly as smart as me.  Heck, there'd be ten million of them in India alone, which explains why our jobs are going there."

Actually, the average IQ in India is one standard deviation below that of the US. This shifts the curve somewhat and as a result there is about the same number of people of your intelligence in India as in the US.

Dave Thomas
Monday, July 19, 2004

Here is some info about it including a graph of black vs white iq distribution in the US:

http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/retard.htm

Note that almost no blacks are gifted (59 times less likely), but 6 times as many blacks are retarded as whites.

Some ascribe a genetic component to these measurements. That has never been proven. Diet, prenatal care and a stimulating environment have much to do with IQ and blacks are shortchanged in these areas.

Dave Thomas
Monday, July 19, 2004

What's interesting about that page is its analysis and conclusion that shows that counties with a high rate of mentally retardation are much more likely to be republican.

Tony Maxwell
Monday, July 19, 2004

Great ad hominem Tony! Yee haa! Stick it to 'em! You rock!

.
Monday, July 19, 2004

"What's interesting about that page is its analysis and conclusion that shows that counties with a high rate of mentally retardation are much more likely to be republican."

I'd have to assume that's because people who actually know less advantaged people realize that you can only help them help themselves.

JWA
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

Tony:

Why is saying that blacks average IQ is consistently a standard D below white "Racist Shit"?  Have you really thought about this or is it just a knee-jerk response, i.e. you know it can't be true and therefore writing it must be motivated by racism?

Attitudes like this really shut down debate and discussion and, IMHO, prevent a lot of important issues from be addressed in a manner likely to solve them.

name withheld out of cowardice
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

Dear withheld/aka David Duke wannabe,

These claims boil down to saying that blacks have a lower IQ than whites. That saying that blacks are not as smart as whites. White people have been saying this for centuries but it isn' t true - blacks are just as smart as whites. People who say otherwise are racists. The only way they can get these IQ tests to show blacks are dumb is by 'adjusting' the numbers and playing games like that. Also, it is widely know that these tests, also the SATs and so forth, are highly based on cultural context. The reason that the tests are made this way to make blacks look stupid is because that is what the white man wants the black man to look like. It is racism at its most despicable - manipulating the results so blacks look bad.

Tony Maxwell
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

And if you want proof what I say you look no  farther than the fact that a high IQ does not equate with success in life. If a smart person can not be a success in life, given that he has a fair shake, I don't see how he could be so smart.

Tony Maxwell
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

"If a smart person can not be a success in life, given that he has a fair shake, I don't see how he could be so smart."

He could be lazy.  A lack of will, not one of ability.

Aaron F Stanton
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

Or doesn't have much concern for *your* measure of success.  The word success has no meaning except as indicating whether a particular aim has been reached.  Are you dim enough to think we all have the same aims and concerns?

Will
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

Those studies that show blacks as being worse than whites in IQ/life expectancy/obesity/whatever make a serious mistake whenever they try to use statistics gathered about blacks in the United States and extrapolate that to blacks in general.

As soon as you start looking outside the United States and examine predominantly black countries (except for the severely impoverished ones like many in Africa), those statistics fall flat on their face.  For example, Barbados has a higher literacy rate than the United States, and males in Jamaica have a life expectancy higher than white males in the US, which is in turn 8 years more than black US males (full stats can be found at http://www.natinmaster.com and http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/express.htm ).

Living in America sucks the life and health out of a black man.

T. Norman
Tuesday, July 20, 2004

As I said, it's mostly confidence and motivation, not genetics. There are genetic factors but the mind can overcome them, to a large extent. Living in the US could be very de-moralizing for the average black person. Some social programs have made it worse, I think.
Women also suffer from lack of confidence, causing them to be less successful, in general. There is no IQ difference between males and females, as far as I know, that would account for this.

Dr. Real PC
Wednesday, July 21, 2004

I have been a member of Mensa, but I don't talk about it much.  Why don't I?  Because it seems to me that many discussions of IQ develop a very high signal-to-noise ratio. 

I think the high signal-to-noise ratio is partly because many people feel that scores on some test are more important than they might really be.  They invest these test scores  with the sum total of the test-taker's intellectual 'worth'; with all their emotional concerns about whether they are (or might not be) mentally 'superior' to other people, even that their own group must be 'smarter', etc. 

If you feel this way, maybe you should forget about what your IQ is!  Even about other people's!

Maybe people should think more about other issues, like how you use your own time and effort.  If you take the trouble to make good use of your mind, eventually you will find you have something that no IQ test can take away from you (unless you let the test intimidate you into giving up.)

And if you use your mind poorly, your IQ will not make so much practical difference as you might hope.

"Dr. Real PC" might be using IQ numbers in a bogus way, but if he exercises his brain to develop the knowledge and skills that he desires, then he is doing something right.
It's interesting how people can do something sensible, and then undermine their statements about their sensible act by  using inflammatory language (mentioning IQ.)

Personally, if I want to develop some skill or area of knowledge and become good at applying it...become good at mathematics, or become good at explaining things, or become a good businessman, or whatever, I would rather study the subject and practice the skills and see if I can become any good at it, not sit around worrying about my IQ score! 

IQ won't tell you whether you have the specific talents, desire, and drive to become what you want to be, whether that's a programmer, or a linguist, or a comedian, or an obnoxious arguer, etc.  You need to find out whether you have the specific talents and desires necessary. 

Richard Feynman liked to tell the story about his having taken an IQ test and finding out he was in the low 120's, officially not a genius.  But he had already found that in practice, he happened to be very good at math and physics, so he became a genius physicist anyway. 

He used his strengths and did not rely so much on his weak areas, like not being good at taking IQ tests. :-)  Maybe his average intelligence really was "bright normal"; I don't know.  But the important thing is that he had enough talent and interest *in physics* to be a genius, so he did physics. 

Since I have such a high IQ that I 'must' be such a genius, you should take my advice not to worry much about your IQ.  :-)  And although it might be very difficult, try not to worry too much about other people's either.  :-)  If you are worrying about black people's IQs, or Democrats'/Republicans' IQs, it's more important that each and every person have the proper opportunities and encouragement for each person to figure out what the *individual* is good at and wants to do, and to do that, than what the median (or individual) score is on some IQ test.

Anonymous
Sunday, July 25, 2004

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