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Old farts lack respect for younger programmers

and refuse to believe that they could actually be competent and capable because:

1)  Young programmers are young.  Typical Farts have lived 80 hojillion years and are bitter about not being where they think they should be by now.  They know more than you because Their memory is longer.

2)  Young programmers represent the Farts' inescapable march toward death.  Typical Farts enjoy being nostalgic for a reason:  they know their glory days are gone.  When they were your age, they did things better, longer, and more efficiently than you.  Plus they had more sense, and respected their elders.  Quit reminding them that they're going to die soon, you upstart.

...

More as they occur to me.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

3)  Typical farts don't like being reminded that all of their skillset is obsolete, they're making a sham of a career out of trying to apply COBOL standards and practices to C#, and your skillset which took you a fraction of the time to develop is more up-to-date, more markettable, easier to apply, and more versatile and useful in general.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Please take this offline.

old fart
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I have to agree.

The worst is when they are the "Project Leaders" due to the fact that they have been with the company longer.

When these types represent you and the rest of the team at meetings that you are not invited to - BEWARE!!!!!!!!

They make consistent wrong decisions that affect the group all the time. (poor architecture, inaccurate estimates, unrealistic promises etc etc).

Gen'xer
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Tick Tick Tick

_
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Sorry to say, "Gen X'er", but Gen X are now considered "old farts".

Gen Y
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Gen Y - Good one LOL!!!!!!

I meant "old fart" as per their technical skills not necessarily simply their age.

Someone could be in their 50's and have learned OOP and adapted into a  good developer. I have worked with some.

Gen'xer
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

+++Please take this offline. +++

This is a discussion about the working environment as it stands now for young developers.  How is this not suitable for this forum, a place where this sort of thing is discussed daily (with a decided slant toward older developers, hence this topic) ?

Sorry if I struck a nerve.  :-P

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Gen'xer

absolutely.  "Old Fart" is an archetype, not an age-based metric.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Old farts lack respect for younger programmers because they have the detailed personal experience of having been one.

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

The joke goes....
When I was 16, my dad knew nothing.
When I reached 21, I was surprised at how much he had learned in 5 years.

Point 1 has to do with trying to help you avoid stepping in brown stuff.
Point 2 is false.

No, grasshopper, someday even you will learn. But by then you too might be so old that when you fart, dust comes out.

I've been around the block a few times, and I have seen lots of stupid things. And some things I try to tell the youngsters are of the category of "watch out for ..... " and they still step in it. And then stomp brown stuff all over the project/office. Of course you get guys like one of my coworkers, if you tied his mouth shut, his head would explode. And I have only a couple more minutes before he reenacts the Cliff Claven Memorial Hour starts. God forbid you should say something because something bigger and better happened to/was done by him. Gotta go!

Peter
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

4)  Old Farts lack respect for younger programmers because when they were younger programmers, they were arrogant, lacked objectivity, and were sure they knew everything.  Not much has changed except now they have years of experience in lacking objectivity, being arrogant, and becoming CERTAIN that they know everything.  There is no way that you are any different than they were at your age.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

The reverse is also true. IME younger programmers lacking experience often:

- favor newer technology (languages, platforms, etc.) at the expense of stability

- place too much emphasis on creating code and not enough on maintaining code

- think they know everything and won't heed the lessons gained by hard (and often painful) experience just because they're from "that old fart"

- believe they can create software without knowing the business or users

But AFAICT variations of this have been true for as long as there have been old and young people working together.

Chris Winters
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Chris - which gets (more quickly than I imagined) right to the point I was hoping this thread would wrap up on.  Damn you.  :)

WAY too many debates in the IT industry (as evidenced here again and again) center on "You're old and immobile", "You're young and stupid" instead of an objective discussion about the technologies involved, their pros and cons, and the PROPER methodologies/ techniques/thought patterns for applying Technology X for maximum effectiveness.

"Java sucks because it isn't C++" is a piss poor argument, the inverse is true as well.

There seem to be quite a few intelligent folks on this forum, but debates concerning technologies or abilities INVARIABLY AND INEVITABLY degenerate to (or BEGIN already mired in) the nonsense above.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet, do you treat the "old farts" who work with you with the same "respect" and "courtesy" you show to everyone here?

Somebody had to say it
Tuesday, July 13, 2004


Is it possible that "old farts" lack respect for many younger programmers because they haven't done anything to deserve respect?

Or is respect handed out with degrees these days?

anon
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

anon -

I think every human being deserves a base level of respect for simply being human beings.  It seems that folks you meet already hold you at a respect DEFICIT based upon their analyzation of your character by stereotype and bigotry.  That's the kind of nonsense that's uncalled for, and frankly, in my experience it seems that elder developers are more prone to this mindset than younger.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Speaking of bitter...

Are you consistently stuck dealing with older programmers who don't appreciate you because you're young?  This isn't the first time you've ranted about how older programmers are inflexible, bitter, obsolete.

Your post is either just rant or a troll (fine either way), not a request for advice, and it's not like this advice is terribly insightful, but:

If you have to deal with someone - of any age - who you see as bitter, defensive, useless, etc. you have to come up with some coping mechanisms.  If there's no hope of them changing their bitter old ways, then I'd feel free to scheme and manipulate to minimize their influence.  If they aren't completely hopeless, then maybe you can help them learn some new tricks to become more useful. Or find a place that only employs 19-year-old hot-shots with up-to-the-minute skills.

Ward
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

19 year old hotshots, eh?  Being 27, I don't think I'd qualify.  :)

I AM trolling.  Not asking for advice.  This is an area which requires discussion and insight, I think.  People need to realize the way in which they interact with others.  In my experience, the default behavior of older developers is to assume you're a moron unless you're their age, have intimate knowlege of all the obsolete technologies they used in their glory days, or have published.  The latter doesn't even guarantee you any respect, it's more of a wildcard.

Yes, the reverse happens, with younger developers assuming that the Old Farts are pathetic, outdated old hacks who won't give up the ghost, but this seems less common to me, at least in my experience.  Yes, I may be biased because I'm a member of one group and not the other, but I personally treat folks with a great deal of respect around here, and seem to get none in return because I don't know COBOL, Fortran, or C (without the plus plus on the end).  And this is not a unique experience, it's been the case everywhere I go. 

At my current office, I have the fortune to have finally been recognized by a few developers here as actually knowing my shit and being a capable developer despite my lack of Mainframe experience, but it's been an uphill battle.  One might argue that it should be, that you should have to pay your dues.  I call bullshit on that.  Nobody should have to pay dues to be treated like a human being.

If I'm a screw up, then it'll become apparent soon enough, but don't assume I am one when I walk in the door because you have more wrinkles.

I started this thread because I see a LOT of this attitude on this board.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

In the title you could easily replace the word programmers with people and it would be just as true.  You could also swap the whole thing round - "Young people...etc".  You will find the scarey moment is when you realise which of the two categories you actually belong to.

Not that I'm biased but my slashdot sig is "Boring Old Fart (38, married, 3 kids...)"

a cynic writes...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Older programmers have reason to be upset -- it used to be understood how to manage a programming team, and now it's not.  When my dad was working on the earliest machines, they would go over the code BEFORE it went into the computer.  If your company does that now, consider yourself extremely lucky! 

Honestly, I have little respect for an older programmer who is in the same position I am, unless they enjoy it.  They have had a long time to find something else to do.  I am in constant pursuit of a type of work that I will enjoy the most.  There's really no excuse for not liking what you're doing -- you have a choice, you can learn to do something else.  This is the land of opportunity, after all! 

Of course, I am certain this will welcome the stories of how person x can't do thing y because of constraint z, but I am not speaking of the exceptions.

sir_flexalot
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

...because:

5) They talk about touchy-feely issues like respect, and attitudes, and interacting with others.  That's all crap, we didn't have talk shows to help us cope with harsh reality when I was younger, we just got out there and lived.

6) They don't use 6-character, implicitly-typed variable names:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/real.programmers.html

Ward
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

cynic - I've already rebutted you, read the thread.

My post is not a generalization.  Old Fart is capitalized because it is an archetype, not an age metric.  Yes, there are young people who do the same thing.  But I'll lay money that it's not as prevalent as age discrimination against the young.  For one thing, the older folks control more of the market by simple virtue of having been here first.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"Being 27, I don't think I'd qualify. "

So you're already an old fart, and still don't get the respect. How come?

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Would it be fair to say that computer science degrees are not immune to Moore's Law? Or is a CS degree earned 20 years ago worth the same to hiring companies as one earned last month?

Derek
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

+++5) They talk about touchy-feely issues like respect, and attitudes, and interacting with others.  That's all crap, we didn't have talk shows to help us cope with harsh reality when I was younger, we just got out there and lived+++

You're right.  Corporations are populated by robots and not human beings, and sticking firmly to this philosophy for decades and decades has gotten us plenty far..... oh hey wait, the US military is out killing people in the name of corporate profit.  Guess not.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"I started this thread because I see a LOT of this attitude on this board."

You want attitude?  Look at all the posts from "muppet from forums.madebymonkeys.net" in this thread:

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=162115&ixReplies=48

That guy has got attitude.  He certainly isn't objectively weighing in on the pro's and con's of memory management in C++ vs. Java.  He uses the classic, "you just don't know how to use the tool correctly" argument.  Which isn't far off from the "Java sucks because it isn't C++" argument. 

BTW, we're the same age.

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Just Me -

You're the first person I've encountered in the IT industry who considers 27 an 'old fart'.

Maybe in the dot.bomb era, this was the case, but that's before my time.  :)

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

AA -

"It seems that you're not using the tool correctly" (ie, you're trying to use it like C++ and not Java, which it is)

seems like a perfectly objective observation, to me.  In that thread, the argument against Java was predominately "Java is flawed because it doesn't behave like C++".  And of course it doesn't.  How is it subjective to state that if you're trying to code Java as if it were not Java, you're probably going about things wrong?

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

+++Which isn't far off from the "Java sucks because it isn't C++" argument.  +++

err.. this is precisely the argument I was refuting in that thread.  Which thread were YOU reading?

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Sir flexalot,

Isn't that an example of Old Farts failing to recognise that times have changed.

In your dads day machine tme was much more expensive than human time.  Now the inverse it true.

If you waste time checking over the code yourself, when the machine could be doing it quicker and cheaper then you're going to eat the young un's collective dust.

Much better to write thorough unit tests and have the machine check them than slavishly poring over every line yourself.

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Anytime someone mentions CS, I feel the need to rhetorically point out that computer science has only existed (meaning people wrote, read, and practiced it) for a very short time, relative to other areas of study (not to mention getting a degree in CS).  For example, architecture has existed for almost all of modern humanity, according to my estimates ~6000 years (i.e. pyramids).  It's important to remember that because the field is still new enough that an expert 20 years ago, while still smart today, may not understand the latest technologies at all (nor need to in order to function).  I would argue that the older CS degrees were worth more because of grade inflation, and the overwhelming influx of people trying to get in on the dot-com thing.

sir_flexalot
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

btw. People do change. Age is only tangentially involved. The most radical force of change in life is deep trauma, major downturns. To loose the innocense ...
The reason you'll find fewer obnoxiously cocky 50 year olds is just statistics.

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Regretably, most of the places I've worked in the past ten years didn't want any of us "old farts" around, mostly because:

1. We cost more.
2. We wouldn't tell management what they wanted to hear.
3. We've already made so many mistakes and suffered accordingly that we tend to speak up when we see less experienced folks getting ready to make the same ones we made.
4. We're not terribly enamoured of reinventing the wheel, unlike some less experienced folks who'd rather "roll their own."
5. We had lives outside the shop.

But then I guess I'm just a bitter "old fart."

Michael Ealem
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

true about the unit tests.  I learned to program from my dad, so one can understand my bias towards all things arcane and rudimentary.

sir_flexalot
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I bought into the "it's a young discipline, look at architecture, we've been building for x thousand years ..." thing until I actually sarted building a house. Man, they're farting around even more than we do. Wild guestimates, pull out-of-the-ass schedules, inefficient working habits, cowboy industry ... Don't get your hopes up that things will magically be better once this game "matures".

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

>> "Old farts lack respect for younger programmers"

Mr. Spock said it best:

"I object to you. I object to intellect without discipline. I object to power without constructive purpose."

(Spock, to Trelane, "The Squire of Gothos")

This sums up how I feel about most people in IT who lack wisdom.  IE: just because you can implement it doesn't mean that you should, etc etc etc etc

Wisdom is a strong but not absolute function of age and years of experience in the industry, so please excuse any gratuitous "profiling"...

Bored Bystander
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"How is it subjective to state that if you're trying to code Java as if it were not Java, you're probably going about things wrong?"

That's true.  But also, just because you can through life without deterministic destruction doesn't mean it doesn't have value.  People in that thread were making that exact point against garbage collection ("I don't need it, so it's useless").

You're doing exactly what your complaining other people do.  If you look at that discussion there are great points on both sides of the argument from "name withheld out of cowardice", Christopher Wells, and "nothing every changes, does it?".  You don't really make any points at all.

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I would say on balance, programming fails to listen to the old farts enough.

I love Rick Chapman's Logan's run Analogy:

"JT: Rick, the classic Peter Principle says that "people get promoted to the level of their incompetence." But it seems that a fair number of top executives in software have risen much, much higher. How come?

Rick: One of the reasons this happens is that high tech and software companies have no institutional memory. And one of the reasons for this problem is that the industry actually operates on the 'Logan's Run' principle: Anyone approaching 40 in high-tech is expected to wear spooky robes and ride the Carousel of Doom on their 40th birthday. Usually they're blown off the carousel into jobs at Radio Shack or manning the chalupa station at Taco Bell. And all their accumulated knowledge goes with them.

Then, of course, the next batch of young exciting newbies proceed to make exactly the same mistakes as their predecessors, because there's no one to tell them better and because they spent most of their youth playing video games. And so it goes."

http://www.softwaremarketsolution.com/SMS%20Articles/Jeff_Tarter_interview.htm

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

muppet - Let's go through them.

Yes at 27, you're right to not consider yourself an old fart.  However, there will be people who do consider you one - albeit not to your face - and it is definately age related.  The moment at which you realise the consensus is you're an old fart, is an epiphany - and not in a nice way.  Mine was when I remembered looking at my father at my daughter's age and realising the age gap was the same.

As to your rebuttal(?), I had read the thread , I know you were not generalising.  I was.  It's allowed.

...and finally - age discrimination against older people in the IT industry is *legendary*.  It is entirely possible that the people you've encountered are driven by fear of the young.  But in career terms that fear may well be justified.

a cynic writes...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

At 27 I knew it all. At 37 I only know I don't know anything ... I wonder what 47 is going to feel like :-)

Dino
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"In my experience, the default behavior of older developers is to assume you're a moron unless you're their age, have intimate knowlege of all the obsolete technologies they used in their glory days, or have published.  The latter doesn't even guarantee you any respect, it's more of a wildcard."

There's also the very great risk that they've read what you've published.  Speaking as somebody who has published, I can assure you that publication doesn't mean you're some kind of genius.  It just means that you've bothered to try to do something.

I recently had the displeasure of working with a project manager thirteen years my junior who matches pretty closely the behavior you attribute to old farts.  Very closed minded as to the way that a program should be written, unbelievably closed minded about the appropriate use of technology (he was vigorously opposed to using proven, established technology capable of reducing initial and maintenance labor costs by 40% or more), and absolutely certain that he knew more about application design than anybody else, while forwarding designs with fatal flaws and opposing and changes to that design.

Clay Dowling
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

+++You're doing exactly what your complaining other people do.  If you look at that discussion there are great points on both sides of the argument from "name withheld out of cowardice", Christopher Wells, and "nothing every changes, does it?".  You don't really make any points at all. +++

No, the other folks were stating "GC doesn't make sense to me, and I don't use it, therefore it's useless".  I was saying "It's your personal preference to code with deterministic destruction, and that's swell, but don't try to invalidate Java because it's not C".  I fail to see how I was mirroring their argument.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Dino -

perhaps I'm advanced for my age, but I went through that whole cycle of milestones around 21, 23, 25.  :)

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

cynic - ...and finally - age discrimination against older people in the IT industry is *legendary*.  It is entirely possible that the people you've encountered are driven by fear of the young.  But in career terms that fear may well be justified. +++

I'm not saying that it's necessarily the case in this instance, but things OFTEN become "legendary" without very much basis in fact.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet, on a stylistic note your trolling makes me uncomfortable with you. In the RAII thread, for example, I'd prefer to discuss technology issues ... what are advantages and disadvantages of each ... but I hesitate because I fear that you may have an axe to grind: that your personal agenda is argument based on personal prejudice, rather than a discussion, which would make any attempt at a discussion pointless.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Chris.

If you look at the RAII thread, it was that sa..whoever-series-of-nonsensical-characters fellow who made it personal.  Up until then I was discussing purely semantical/syntactical issues.  You're right if you contend that I tend to get dragged down into personal prejudices and stereotyping when I'm confronted with them.  That's something I'll need to try to avoid.

However, being that this thread was intended to stir up discussion about those very stereotypes, I feel that it's in context, here.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet,

Ignorance starts with the words "I know!". Don't fall into that trap.

Look back and see how much you've changed - for the better I suppose - from 17 to 21, 22, ... to 27.

Imagine how much you'll change in the next 10 years :-) Think about that ...

Dino
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

> Ignorance starts with the words "I know!". Don't fall into that trap.

How is anyone supposed to get ahead without claiming to know everything? You can't even get an interview these days unless you can brainstorm at least 20 different technologies (whether you actually know them or not) to put on your resume.

Nearly Nameless
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

> However, being that this thread was intended to stir up discussion about those very stereotypes, I feel that it's in context, here.

FYI I remember people from previous discussions: the things you say in previous threads add context to (add bias to) my interpretation of your intent in subsequent threads.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet:

"you're a moron unless you're their age"

No! because of your postings which are abusive and  lack's respect for other's.

It's my view...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Christopher:

...and?

If folks spout stereotypes at me, I tend to counter with same.  This is not a terribly effective strategy, but a knee-jerk one I often fail to avoid.

My apologies for tarnishing your impression of me, but frankly, I'm not all that worried about it.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I don't think it is all down to age, it is more about the experience gained.

For example, a 25 year old may have experienced redundancy several times.  It is experiences such as these that really mold our outlook.  It makes you leaner and meaner, and forces you to look at the wider field.

On the other hand, you can have a 40 year old bachelor who has worked for the same company since leaving school.  They plod along, year in year out, never challanged.

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

It's my view -

Often people who discuss issues frankly and without sugary coated politically correct bullshit are disliked.  I've learned to live with it.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Ged Byrne  -

I've been laid off a half dozen times, so I suppose I have some tendencies toward "jaded old bastard".  :)

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"If you look at the RAII thread, it was that sa..whoever-series-of-nonsensical-characters fellow who made it personal." 

That's pretty funny...  I don't see anything that "sid6581" says that's "personal".  He simply stated his opinion -- that it's easier to do resource management in C++ than in Java (btw, he never did say Java was "bad").  If that's all it takes for you to derail from "semantical/syntactical issues" than you need a thicker skin. 

To bring this back to the point of this thread somewhat -- this business is full of people who are stuck on their favourite technology or methodology and refuse to look outside the box.  Young developers typically attach to newer environments (Java and .NET) and methodologies (XP) while older developers attach to older environments and methodogolies.  A well rounded developer knows that there is a middle ground -- it's not all or nothing.

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

AA -

Newer technologies?  :)  My core expertise is in Perl, to derail again :)

Java is a recent addition to my arsenal, and I learned C++ long before that.

I have to say that lately PHP is my favorite-of-the-day, though.

I'm sure I could find where sid made things personal if I cared to comb that thread again, but I don't.  This may seem like a cop out to you, but that's just something you'll have to deal with.  :)  I found him condescending and rude about 1/3rd of the way through the discussion, and got annoyed.  Perhaps I DO need a thicker skin.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Tying two threads together...

the entire attitude displayed here is an inevitable side-effect of the lack of respect most people in our field display towards the "typical" practicioner of our craft.

IE, the "90% of programmers are crap" talk.

Grow up; realize most people in our industry are smart; and things become a lot easier to deal with.

M1EK
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"I have to say that lately PHP is my favorite-of-the-day, though."

I love PHP -- it offends my sense of organization but it really gets the job done.  Maybe we should start a thread about all the great things about PHP -- that always gets the trolls out.  ;)

I suppose my point is I found your posts just as rude (it's *really* a stretch to call them that) as sids.  Now that's just my opinion.  I just found this whole thread kind of ironic in that context. 

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I managed to keep my organization straight in PHP by refusing to EVER, EVER inline it with HTML, EVER.

In my current project I created templates for all of my screens, built a GUI layer, a Data layer, and a Logic layer.  Every last PHP file starts with <?php and ends with ?> and has absolutely NO HTML in it short of dynamically generated URLs.

Granted, coding in that manner is discarding some of the benefits of PHP, and so in the end I tossed out my GUI layer and wrote my templates IN php, but hey...  :)

And I pronounce this thread officially dead!

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

muppet:
What will happen to you in your 40's ?

Person in 20's:but muppet doesn't represents me
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"whoever-series-of-nonsensical-characters"

'SID6581' is not nonsensical!

The SID6581 was the sound chip from the Commodore 64. 

Man, that slither of silicon sure had soul.

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"And I pronounce this thread officially dead!"

Ahh lets take it over by talking about PHP...

"I managed to keep my organization straight in PHP by refusing to EVER, EVER inline it with HTML, EVER."

I have a huge class library of sorts where all the code goes.  I code my templates in PHP so they have inline code.  Usually they have a block at the top with init code and then just variable access and loops on the inside.  All the real action occurs in the class library.

My issue with PHP is the function naming is all convoluted.  Here is a project that needed coding standards from the beginning!  It has them now, but it has it's legacy to support.

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Nazis.

Hitler.

Salad cream.

Ok?

Bored Bystander
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

You need to drop bystander from your name now...

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

ah yes, the PHP functions.

I find myself re-inventing the wheel inadvertantly again and again simply because I was blissfully unaware of function xyz_doubleapostrophes_to_asterix( ) which automatically replaces '' with * in a string, or similiar.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

+++I have a huge class library of sorts where all the code goes.  I code my templates in PHP so they have inline code.  Usually they have a block at the top with init code and then just variable access and loops on the inside.  All the real action occurs in the class library.
+++

this is essentially the compromise that I've found myself at, though rather than a huge class library in a single file, I group everything by logical function into files, even if it means that some files have only a single class.  My code libraries tend to contain nothing but classes, and my templates procedural code for manipulating the objects.

nothing revolutionary.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I must admit though, when developing in another environment, you really start to miss the random assortment of functions that PHP has.

I was working with someone who was porting ASP code to PHP.  She was asking me questions about porting some piece of code -- I got her through it but then I found out that the code was for calculating md5.  Oops...  PHP has an md5() function built in.  Email, same deal.  The list just goes on and on and on.

PHP just thinly wraps a huge number of open source libraries.  It's a glue language!

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet:

This comment is not intended for every US citizen. There are all sorts of people everywhere.

I am an Indian, living in India. I everyday go through this site.

In many treads, Muppet writes abusive remarks about all indians just because some indian posted a question on this forum for advice which "he" didn't liked.

Muppet:
Listen to me carefully, whether there is outsourcing or not, indians working in US or not ,people of your attitude can never be a success.

Secondly, nobody can stop a good programmer or person from making big in life. He/she may make it late, but will surely make it.

And yes color of your skin will not help in that, work upon yourself. Or you will spend your life posting these sort of comments, frustrated and dejected.
 

For your betterment...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet, can't you see you're not wanted in these parts...

"I've been laid off a half dozen times..."'

or in many other parts. 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

I'm not frustrated OR dejected.  I'm happily employed and doing very well for myself.  Not bad for a high school dropout.

I do feel that it's brazen of folks with seemingly very poor skills in a particular industry to jump on the IT boom bandwagon (which happens to be stationed in India right now) and expect expert, often out-of-work developers to DO THEIR JOBS FOR THEM.

The posts to which I replied with scathing criticism were posts in which some time on Google would have yielded a wealth of answers, yet these people decided instead to beg other people to do the research for them.  This displays an appalling laziness and lack of self-awareness.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Funny.. nobody (save you) has asked me to go.

Kisses.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet:

The person posting for advice on the forum has a name. Isn't it! Will it not be right that you address him/her by his/her name rather than by his/her nationality.

I hope you understand, there are all sorts of people everywhere.
You have people like Clinton, M . Jackson, J. Jackson. Does this mean all Americans are like them! No absolutely not !


For your betterment...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"huge class library in a single file"

I never said it was in a single file...  actually it's somewhere over 500 files in over 100 directories.  Unfortunately, I have CVS repository files in there so it's hard to get an accurate count!

I generally (but not always) put each class in it's own file.  The organization is something like:

/Base
/HTML
/HTML/Form
/Net
..etc..

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet:
For all the tooting of your own horn that you do, the biggest statement about your true level of self-awareness is that you appear NOT to understand that you ARE bitter.  You might do a decent job maintaining the facade, even for yourself, that you are really happy.  But the proof is in the pudding.  Constantly airing your gripes, which do NOTHING productive towards solving the issues you gripe about, is not the passtime of a happy person.  Happy people focus on the successes and enjoyable parts of their work and their personal lives.  Happy people also focus on how other people around them can add to their happiness via friendship or learning or teaching, and if those benefits are not available from a person, peacably ignore them (read: live and let live).

My age: 30.  I am old to some, young to others. My actual years of IT experience probably qualify me as young, but I choose to believe in myself without worrying about determining if I am better or worse than the people I work with.  All I want is to have work that is stimulating and challenging, and to be respected and appreciated when I do it well.  Eventually, I'll have success.  If the "old farts" on my team think they deserve more than me, let us prove ourselves with our efforts and our work.  It really will all come out in the wash eventually.

Clay Whipkey
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

For your betterment...


you're right, but all the folks I replied to fit a pattern.  They came on expecting assistance with fundamental aspects of coding that they could as well have looked up on Google in 3 minutes.  And, as much as you'd like to, you can't discount the politics involved.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Clay - my initial purpose in this thread was to shine a light on some of the entrenched stereotypes on this thread.  The fact that a LOT of you saw fit to drive me into the ground for it is telling.  Can you blame me for becoming agitated over it?

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

AA -

I don't have quite the library built up that you do, but I'm a PHP n00b, so that must be why.  :)

Actually with all the built-in functionality in PHP, I have a hard time coming up with things I need a library for that aren't just wrappers.

Of course, I only have one PHP project currently:  a relatively simple CMS.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

and Clay, when I said I've been successful, I was responding to a comment made, not horn-tooting.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Children,

Why is an interesting thread being spoilt by all this bickering.

Muppet, could you please apologise for any offence you may have caused, and post controversial stuff anonymously in future ( which is what everybody else does). 

Above all else, there are no excuses for racial stereotypes.  Do you really want to tar yourself as one of those tedius xenophobes that pop up so regularlyl?

The rest:  will you stop dragging issues from one thread to another, it's getting both annoying and confusing.

Now play nicely.

Act your age, not your shoe size
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"I don't have quite the library built up that you do, but I'm a PHP n00b, so that must be why.  :)"

Don't feel bad, I've been working on the library/framework since PHP 3.x which is to say 5 years ago.  Most of my functionality isn't wrappers I tend to use most functions directory.  The big exception to that is, of course, database access.

"Of course, I only have one PHP project currently:  a relatively simple CMS. "

My project is a relatively complex CMS.  You can see it partially in action here: www.coffeegeek.com.  That's the front-end -- the backend lets you edit all the stuff!

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

A lot less anonymous now.

Are you Wayne?

http://www.webmotif.com/team/team

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet:
"They came on expecting assistance with fundamental aspects of coding that they could as well have looked up on Google in 3 minutes."

Ok! I agree it was their fault. It's good that you cared about them and asked them to figure out the solutions/answers for themselves or make them feel you are being lazy. Hopefully,they will not commit this mistake again.

But all I want is, don't bring nationality into play! That's it! I hope you will take of this in future.

Everyone loves his/her country and it's people,any generalized abusive remarks/statements really hurts.

And yes, what "Clay Whipkey" is saying, is also quite right.

Anyway,BEST OF LUCK ALL,for your future.   

For your betterment...
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Shhhhhh....  I figured one day someone would put 2 and 2 together and find me.  Now you can google me and find my old Fidonet Quickbasic posts!  Run away...

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Remember young muppet, you will be a Fart one day.

Alex
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

That CMS is rather impressive.

Wish I had something like that to my name.

Ged Byrne
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

AA -

Kudos, looks like a great system.  Of course, for me it's utter crap, because I didn't invent it.  :D  I test drove 8 different CMS's for my site and finally settled on writing my own because, well, I'm a control freak and I want what I want.  :)

Are you sure, though, that you want to name your system with an acronymn that could be confused with Work In Progress?

My system is simple, now, but I've spent a good deal of time pontificating on my event-driven plugin system which should make it infinitely extensible.  Perhaps in 2 or 3 years, it will rival yours.  ;)

muppet from forums.madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

"I test drove 8 different CMS's for my site and finally settled on writing my own because, well, I'm a control freak and I want what I want.  :)"

Most CMS's really suck.  They are all slashdot clones of some form or another.  Ours is actually older than most of those CMS's -- so we didn't fall into that trap.  Now whenever someone builds a new CMS it looks like all the others.

I completely can't disagree with building your own -- more power to ya.  You can easily do better than half the crap out there.

"Are you sure, though, that you want to name your system with an acronymn that could be confused with Work In Progress?"

Hell, our 1-800 number used to belong to massage parlor!  I must say, without shame, that I did come up with the acronymn -- but never expected it to actually be used.  At some point, I'd like to rename it -- but it'll probably never happen.  For whatever reason, my boss likes it.

"My system is simple, now, but I've spent a good deal of time pontificating on my event-driven plugin system which should make it infinitely extensible.  Perhaps in 2 or 3 years, it will rival yours.  ;) "

Quite possibly!  I'm currently working on entirely new framework for PHP5.  It's currently in the real early stages (does nothing) but I hope to slowly replace all of WIPS with it.  Around that time, PHP5 might actually be pretty common.

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

ugh, I haven't even put much thought into PHP5 yet.  I suppose that's probably a mistake.

Mine has been in the very early (does nothing) stages for about 4 years (for the first 2 years, it was in Perl).  I wanted it to be EXACTLY right, and did a total rewrite three times in that time.  :)

Since then, I've changed my methodology.  I'm writing something first that "just works" and then I'll slap on all the fantastic bells and whistles I've got planned.  The plugin system will help with that.

I used to have a custom template system with a completely invented markup tag system, but that was the portion of the code that was slowing me down the worst.  By learning a good deal about CSS positioning and layout, I eliminated most of the need for that system anyway, and now all my templates are in native PHP.  That might be a concern if I was building this thing for mass consumption, but as it stands now, it's just mine.

I plan to make my millions as an author, not a coder.  ;)

muppet from forums.madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Well...  crap...  PHP5 was just released today!

http://www.php.net

I'm a bit surprised!

Almost Anonymous
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

well.. time to start looking for the corresponding O'Reilly book....

muppet from forums.madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Old farts laugh last


Tuesday, July 13, 2004

Muppet pet, is this JOS discussion the type of response you get from the old farts you are so quick to condemn?

Hey
Tuesday, July 13, 2004

OF's don't just confine their distain to young programmers. They (oh ok, we) dislike poor spelling, poor grammar, poor music, poor coffee, poor sex ... and gloomily realise their profession has probably increased their exposure to all of these. The list is endless...

Of course, revenge is sweet. Just you wait, kiddies.

macEroni
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

We lack respect for you, because in general you suck. Yet you don't realize it.

You'll understand when you're older.


Wednesday, July 14, 2004

I've got news for you.  In general, you suck.  In general, you try to apply outdated concepts to everything because the new methodologies don't fit in your crusty, alzheimer-riddled melonhead.

muppet from madebymonkeys.net
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

In general, you suck. In general, you humans routinely engage in flawed logic.

Brainiac
Wednesday, July 14, 2004

------"I bought into the "it's a young discipline, look at architecture, we've been building for x thousand years ..." thing until I actually sarted building a house. Man, they're farting around even more than we do. Wild guestimates, pull out-of-the-ass schedules, inefficient working habits, cowboy industry ..."----

There's a Florida builders website I sometimes log on to (because Florida's climate is similar to Sri Lankas) and he maintains that giving estimates is pretty exact, so much so that if there is more than 10% difference between two quotes you are almost certainly not being quoted for the same thing.

Building individually there is a lot of farting around, often because you are waiting for them to finish somewhere else. Large scale builders (Wimpy has an amazing international section that runs better than the army) have long realized the importance of planning so that one set of workers is never held up waiting for another.

And of course don't forget to factor the weather in to any estimate.

Mind you, there are things around that could be improved. There a Sri Lanka builders site that has instructions on everything, including high and low estimates for any specific job (plastering one square metre of wall, laying a 4" concrete slab) but when it comes to roofing design it gives the design for roof spans of more than 5 metres, and the useful information "size of beams and rafters will depend on the size of the roof"  Aargh!

Stephen Jones
Thursday, July 15, 2004

That Florida guy is either taking the piss, or thing are realy different a few timezones up. I once was briefly involved in the conception of an estimator application for architects. Basically, they are making a wild guess based on vague tacit knowledge producing a factor on the standard square meter cost, and major artifacts. Actual costs very wildly.

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, July 15, 2004

I'll look up the site. I'm on holiday using the laptop so it's a bit of a search using bookmarks, but I probably need to do it anyway, of only for advice on the roof problem.

I doubt if he is taking the piss. He might be trying to justify being at the high end, but there are loads of sites for different countries that will give you high and low-end estimates. They can vary by up to 100% for labour costs but that is because every job is different.

Now an architect is often the wrong person to give you a quote. The reason is he often doesn't know the local factors involved. Take the architects plans to a builder and maybe you'll get a better quote.

If you're in the UK, then much of what I am saying doesn't apply. Building work in the UK consists of a few big guys building maybe half-a-dozen housing types in the whole country, a load of renovation work, and a very small amount of build your own from new. Elsewhere, build-your-own from new is the norm, or at least very common.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, July 15, 2004

Not many threads make it to triple figures.

Ged Byrne
Friday, July 16, 2004

I'm a genius.

muppet
Friday, July 16, 2004

What does "taking the piss" mean?

name withheld out of cowardice
Friday, July 16, 2004

To take the piss (out of) -- to tease or to mock

macEroni
Friday, July 16, 2004

danke!

name withheld out of cowardice
Friday, July 16, 2004

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