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Visual Studio Express

In case some of you might have missed this, MS has released freely available Beta version of VS 2005 Express. I suppose its some kind of restricted edition. I havent read the license yet. It expires (self terminates) march next year. I think all the usual VS languages are available.

Eric Debois
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I am not pleased with these Express Products.

Take a look at the blurb on the Express page.  They're targeting "enthusiasts" and "hobbyists".  There is no way that this is a good thing.  Remember when Joel said:

"There’s something weird about software development, some mystical quality, that makes all kinds of people think they know how to do it. I’ve worked at dotcom-type companies full of liberal arts majors with no software experience or training who nevertheless were convinced that they knew how to manage software teams and design user interfaces. This is weird, because nobody thinks they know how to remove a burst appendix, or rebuild a car engine, unless they actually know how to do it, but for some reason there are all these people floating around who think they know everything there is to know about software development."

Well, these Express editions are just going to foster that type of "there's nothing to software development - anyone can do it!" type of thinking.

I say again...there is no WAY that this is a good thing.  It's just going to further commoditize development talent.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

> I say again...there is no WAY that this is a good thing.  It's just going to further commoditize development talent.

Yep - just like Dreamweaver, Web Matrix, et al - all commoditized development talent...

...
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Yep - just like Dreamweaver, Web Matrix, et al - all commoditized development talent..."

I believe they did. I worked for a web dev team for a large gov. site, and the *sole* reason half of the team was able to plow through doing anything at all was because of Dreamweaver. They didn't understand even the basic concepts necessary, and wouldn't do things like error handling or testing, or even thinking a little bit about what the user's might do.

But they were still paid the same, and to the management staff, it looked like they got things done faster, even though they spent three times the dev time fixing bugs in it.

Dreamweaver is fine for designing web pages. But it is the introduction of "drag-n-drop" components without a solid understanding of what goes on underneath, that is troublsome to me.

CF
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

If you buy the box with 'Professional' on it, and you don't think you can compete with the guy that bought one with 'Hobbyist' on it, then you have bigger problems than Microsoft's marketing people.

Thom Lawrence
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

>>"Well, these Express editions are just going to foster that type of "there's nothing to software development - anyone can do it!" type of thinking.

I say again...there is no WAY that this is a good thing.  It's just going to further commoditize development talent."


What a load of elitist crap.

"Oh No!  You unwashed heathens shall not enter the holy halls of programming!"

I say again, What a load of elitist crap.

Lots of people who aren't "real mechanics" work on their car every day.  And lots of people who aren't "real programmers" throw together quick and dirty programs.  Batch files.  Macros.  Web pages.

So get over yourself already.

Made Up Name
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I think you misunderstand.

I looooove seeing people take an interest in programming.  Love it.  I'm certainly not going to object to people trying to learn something.

The problem appears when a hobbyist, awed with his newfound power, decides to hang out a consulting shingle or apply for dev jobs.

Clients and hiring managers frequently cannot tell the difference between the Hobbyist and the Professional, particularly if the Hobbyist talks a good game.  And this IS problematic, because shoddy work by underexperienced developers makes us all look bad.  It's no secret that it takes a few years in the business to gain the perspective that allows you to see how much you DON'T know.

Now, maybe I shouldn't complain too loudly, because I've made a reasonable amount of money being called in to fix disastrous "applications" built by hobbyists who were able to sell themselves to small business owners who didn't know any better.  But just because this phenomenon is putting money in my pocket doesn't make it a good thing - even the clients whose projects I've rescued went into the rescue operation thinking that all programmers are equally bad, which made them a harder sell than necessary. 

This kind of scenario isn't good for anyone.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I know the first time I tried to use Visual Studio 6, after being a pro programmer for more than a decade. I did the create project thing and was faced with the most confusing wizard I've ever seen in my entire life.  Meaningless terms like "apartment," abounded. I gave up, learned how to use GCC and Make, and never looked back. If they haven't improved on that then I suspect most newbies will be discouraged and go away, like I was (and I was newbie only in the use of VS).

5v3n
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

MS has always done its best to get people on every skill level to develop for windows. Dont expect this to stop any time soon.
Having good entry level tools available for free, or at least cheaply makes alot of sense. If you were MS you wouldnt want all the young enthusiasts to learn Python, now would you? :D

Eric Debois
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Instead of trying to restrict supply, shouldn't you concentrate on educating demand?

Philo

Philo
Tuesday, June 29, 2004


" gave up, learned how to use GCC and Make, and never looked back"

Yeah, because we all know how easy GCC is for a newbie to figure out. All the newbs that can't grasp "Master Visual Basic in 21 Days" naturally just run over to use GCC because it's so much simpler.

Richard Dyer
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Instead of trying to restrict supply, shouldn't you concentrate on educating demand?"

Absolutely!  And it is something that I've tried to do with my own clients. 

However, that is a long, hard road to travel, and I doubt many developers have the stomach for it.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I suspect I am part of the target audience and I am looking forward to trying it out. VB 6 is wonderful for writing an app, that, while perhaps not elegant, shows what can be done. If I have to hand it off to a programmer to rewrite it, thats fine. It's a heck of lot more likely to end up doing what I want than if I hand over a list of requirements in a word doc.

VB dotnet is much harder to use on a casual basis than VB6.

MilesArcher
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Oh, and Norrick. Your fired.

MilesArcher
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

On the one hand, I note they have resurrected Visual Basic 2005, and Visual C++ 2005.  On the other hand, it looks like some of the most useful DLL's will not be supplied with the 'Express' package.

I do hate the 'bait-and-switch' approach that this implies.  You can only go so far with the 'free' package -- once you see what is possible with the crippled version you have in your hands, you have to invest x thousand dollars to get the 'Pro' version.  THEN, you may like to invest another x thousand to get the 'Enterprise' version.

And the website does not make it clear what is left out.  This means newbies may think they've got the whole package.  Very sad.

AllanL5
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

MilesArcher - your English teacher called - you get an F.

Skinner
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I think it's a good thing because it'll get more people into programming.

I'm 28, and I got into programming in the 80's, when the first thing you saw was a BASIC interpreter when you fired up the computer.  It was so much fun to just start typing in stupid stuff like:

10 PRINT "JOHN IS COOL!"
20 GOTO 10

The "fun" aspect of it was very important- more programmers should be doing it because they love programming, not because it's a career choice.

Yes, building "real" applications is a lot of hard work, and not something amateurs can or should be tasked with doing.  But the best programmers are almost always the ones who enjoy it AND take it seriously.

John Rose
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

The current "pro" versions of these tools retail for $99, though most of the time professionals will want an MSDN subscription.

What was the problem again?

Brent
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"It's a heck of lot more likely to end up doing what I want than if I hand over a list of requirements in a word doc."

You ae 100% incorrect.

1) You should never "hand over" a list of requirements - a truly good developer will work with you to make sure you both understand the requirements.

2) It is entirely possible that whatever you build will just get in the way of the developer building what you are asking him to build.  This can mean extra cost.

Now, if you build something to serve as a demo, that's one thing.  But this attitude that you can just ask someoen to rewrite an app that was poorly written to start with is truly disturbing.  Do you know how much money you might throw away doing that?

A truly good developer is worth more than whatever time you think you're saving by writing the first cut yourself.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

> If you were MS you wouldnt want all the young enthusiasts to learn Python, now would you? :D

Speaking of Python, I am learning it right now to write testing code, and besides a few oddities, I think it is one of the best enthusiast languages available.  The interactive shell gives new programmers instant feedback.  IMHO, this is what hooks you in when you are first learning to program. 

Python makes programming fun again. 

christopher baus.net
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Looks to me you are afraid of the quick and dirty applications that do the job and might decrease your market value. If there is a market for quick and dirty applications then there will be quick and dirty applications.

Anyway it’s not the bad coders fault that he got hired. He is trying to make a living like you. You got complaints then take this up with the people doing the hiring. If the company is profitable then there is not really a problem. They could work  maybe more effective however you will need to prove to them that your tripple salary and stock options will really improve the situation.

somemorone
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Looks to me you are afraid of the quick and dirty applications that do the job and might decrease your market value. If there is a market for quick and dirty applications then there will be quick and dirty applications."

No.  Quick and dirty apps that do the job are great. 

It's the quick & dirty applications that *don't* do the job that bother me, because they can frustrate businesses into deciding not to hire programmers at all.  As I said before, that's not a good scenario for anyone, clients and developers alike.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Umm, does the 2005 beta versions also include .NET 2.0 Beta?

Poof
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

>>Umm, does the 2005 beta versions also include .NET 2.0 Beta?

Yes

Eric Debois
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Oh everyone get back to work!

...
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Has anyone been able to find any information on what the differences are b/w the "Express" and "Standard" editions?

Skinner
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

When I first saw that these beta products were tareted at "beginning programmers and non-professional developers", the experienced programmer in me was a bit reluctant to try them out, since it would apparently reassign my status to "beginner" to do so.

Thinking a bit more clearly, however, I have to admit that when it comes to .NET and C#, I *am* a beginner, so I think I'll go get the C# package and see what it can do. Even if it's crippled, it seems to me an incomplete knowledge of how to build to the platform is better than no knowledge at all (at least for someone who won't be contributing to any critical functionality written with this tool).

I'm still not sure what a "non-professional developer" is, though. I don't Microsoft meant for the image that immediately sprung to my mind to do so.

Chris
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

>>The current "pro" versions of these tools retail for $99, >>though most of the time professionals will want an MSDN >>subscription.

>>What was the problem again?

The problem is that not all of us earn in USD. Over here that's around 99 * 50

.
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Yes but you can get the command line versions of all these compilers for free.  Then hire Norrick to write an IDE for you since he's out of work because of all the hobbyists taking over the world.

...
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Then hire Norrick to write an IDE for you since he's out of work because of all the hobbyists taking over the world. "

*sigh*

I'm starting to think that the instant some of you see my name attached to a post, you immediately make your best effort to misunderstand what I write.  :P

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"The problem is that not all of us earn in USD. Over here that's around 99 * 50"

How much is that in Ningis?

And I agree with what Norrick said about your mother.

Philo

Philo
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"I'm starting to think that the instant some of you see my name attached to a post, you immediately make your best effort to misunderstand what I write."

Why would you think that?

[g,d,r]

Philo

Philo
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

From what  have seen, the "programmers" who take VB or VB.NET and build some app around access or even MSDE are a boon to the companies who develop applications in that vertical market.

For example, I did a contract at a company targetting a specific industry. In the industry, many companies and manufacturers hired "programmers" to come in and build inventory tracking, billing and ordering systems. Some companies were paying these guys close to 6 figures (USD).

The problem? Most of the time, the people they hired didn't have formal software training or experience with large applications. So after two or three years of spending 70, 80 or 90 thousand dollars a year for something that still didn't do what they wanted, they had enough.

We would then come in and do an evaluation of their systems and technology standpoints. The report we would hand over would more than justify the cost of our software. And not one company who we got to this point on turned down the offer. Yes, there was a transition period, but we worked with them to migrate data and systems over to ours.

So my concern isn't that we are lowering the barrier of entry. In contrast, sometimes it can help companies realize the pain points which can be used as a selling point for the software. My concern is that these "programmers" take what they know and distribute it to the web, where anyone with a cursory knowledge of HTML, Javascript and SQL injection attacks can reak havoc with Credit Card numbers, ordering systems, etc.

CF
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

> Take a look at the blurb on the Express page.  They're
> targeting "enthusiasts" and "hobbyists".  There is no
> way that this is a good thing.

Yes, it is.  The person who first mentioned Python is right on he money.  The Express stuff, for the hobbyist is not the same stuff the pros will be using.  This is MS's answer to the freely available stuff like Perl, Python, CLisp, etc.

Express isn't to make our jobs as developers harder, it's to make it easier for Windows-based, open source widgets.  It's to entice the college hacker, "Hmm?  Do I want to use Linux for my project ($50 and all the free tools I can get), or do I want to use Windows (where all my games are) and pay hundreds for an OS and tools?"  Express is to entice the same widget builders who created Shareware and Open Source.

It's not to make Developer's lives harder, it's to continue making Windows a viable platform for the hobbyist.

Andrew Burton
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

That's a pretty reasonable take from the other side of the issue, Andrew.  Good post!

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Funny how so many people look at this and see it as Microsoft evil.

Deep down, Microsoft just wants to give its developer tools away.  It is far more important for them to get developers making software for their platforms than it is for them to make a few bucks off selling the tools.

The problem is, if they give away their tools, all of the Borlands and FogCreeks (now that their tools include bug tracking of the world) will whine like bitches because Microsoft is giving away for free what they want to sell.

Thus the oddness of Microsoft's tools sales/marketing strategy, of 'limited editions' and 'Empower programs' and such.  They have to keep charging hundreds for their programs outwardly but deep down they just want to give them away to whoever wants them -- this is why they give them out like candy at conferences and why they don't really enforce any of the Empower rules and keep extendeding the time and cutting the price.

Since I don't make developer tools and completely disagree with whatever half-baked idea Norrick was going on about, I'm glad Microsoft is bending over backwards to get its development tools out there.

Mr. Fancypants
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Hmm that should read:

"FogCreeks (now that their tools include bug tracking) of the world"

Mr. Fancypants
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I'm 100% for the Express Tools!

What's exciting to me is the revamp of MSDE to SQL Server Express, removing the "governer" that served to limit concurrent connections. 

Although our application has never encountered issues with MSDE, even in workgroups up to 15-20 users - the perception is still out there.

http://lab.msdn.microsoft.com/express/faq/

Regards - John

John Murray
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Yep, free working tools can hardly be a "bait and switch."

And who's paying $50 for Linux?  I paid like 10 cents for the CD-R I just burned with Debian.

brad
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Skinner,
Whoops, I deserve that.

Norrick, if I had excellent developers to work with, I agree it might be better to just describe the requirements and work with them. However, it's difficult to get developers who are experienced enough to do this kind of thing. It's a lot easier to get time from a junior guy who needs a lot more hand holding and can't design a UI at all. With a language like VB, I can try out a bunch of options on the UI before I decide on one that works.

However, I do understand how these crappy little demos/prototypes can have a life of their own if the expectations are not managed properly. Especially if an amateur programmer has delusions of grandeur.

By the way, i've just installed the beta and am going to check it out.

MilesArcher
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Norrick, if I had excellent developers to work with, I agree it might be better to just describe the requirements and work with them. However, it's difficult to get developers who are experienced enough to do this kind of thing. It's a lot easier to get time from a junior guy who needs a lot more hand holding and can't design a UI at all. With a language like VB, I can try out a bunch of options on the UI before I decide on one that works."

Ah, so you are talking about prototyping.  I think I might have misunderstood you earlier.  I thought you were talking about releasing a self-written app and then waiting until it craps out to have a pro step in and re-write it.  Yes, that sort of prototyping and what-iffing makes sense.

And I hear you on not being able to find experienced developers.  That's the #1 thing my clients cite when I ask them why they contacted me - their existing providers are usually just too damn green.

"However, I do understand how these crappy little demos/prototypes can have a life of their own if the expectations are not managed properly. Especially if an amateur programmer has delusions of grandeur."

Oh, yes.  Or if the client/project manager sees the prototype and demands that it be put into production.  Argh.  We've had many discussions here about why THAT is a bad idea. 

Of course, since I'm the one saying it's a bad idea, I'm sure 50 people will be along to say that releasing the prototype is actually a *good* idea.  ;)

Thanks for the clarification, Miles.  I wish you luck in locating some competent developers!

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"This kind of scenario isn't good for anyone."

It was good for me.

Former Hobbyist
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I just wanted to give respect to Philo for the Hitch-Hiker reference. So... consider it given.

Thom Lawrence
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

I'm glad to see it.  It means that I (hopefully) can do things at home that I wouldn't be able to afford the tools for otherwise.  Right now I'm using gcc/MinGW and it's great, but gdb isn't a great C++ debugger for DirectX 9 apps.

Professional Hobbyist
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

By the way, from spending 30 minutes with it, it looks great. Feels a lot more like VB6 than the current dotnet.

Still no edit and continue, though.

MilesArcher
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Sorry if I am out of the MS loop here, but given that they all mention "WinForms", don't all these require .NET?

Good way to get the casual/hobby geek to develop .NET apps if so. 

Mitch & Murray (from Downtown)
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Still no edit and continue, though. "

?!?!?!?!?!

I could have sworn that MS promised VB 2005 wouldn't ship without edit and continue.

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Do you know the difference between a beta and a shipping product?

Mr. Fancypants
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Of course I do, ASS.  Can I not be surprised that they've made it to beta without a highly-touted feature?

Norrick
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Norrick, don't get the idea that none of us hear you.  We do.  Oh, we do.

I think the target market is students, hobbyists, and non-pros as stated.  They might better have said something like "semi-pros" because I think they mean the "Morts" or "LOB developers."  The kind of people who do non-enterprise development to solve specific problems or meet specific needs on a tactical basis.

Perhaps "Express" is sort of the QBasic or VBA of its time.

I can't bring myself to totally disagree with Norrick's earlier comments (or for that matter those of Joel that have been cited here).  Hacks for rent have done a lot of damage to the industry, but this has been going on at least since Cobol's glory days.  I don't see software development becoming a licensed profession with established standards and practices anytime soon though.  The problem that results is that clients (especially smaller ones) don't have a way to tell the difference between a pro and a fly-by-night operator though.

I don't think anybody is suggesting programming should only be done by some elite - anymore than they'd suggest that one shouldn't be able to handle minor plumbing or wiring himself.  The problem is knowing when to call in a real "plumber" or "electrician" instead of your sister's kid who installed some lights out in the garage once.

Preddie Frinze
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

The concern about expertise not being recognised or rewarded, except in elite software houses, in valid and a big problem.

However I think these price reductions for developer tools won't really contribute to the problem. What we're seeing is Microsoft telling the developer tools group that it has to sacrifice some profit for the benefit of the rest of the company, and its platform franchise.

Microsoft started the 90's with low-cost tools that helped build the market for its platform. As that platform attracted consulting firms, developers were to an extent captured, so Microsoft increased the cost of its developer tools to grab profit from developer tools.


Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Mr. Fancypants, Norrick,

"Can't we all just get along?!"

For the children.

Rodney
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Ok.  Plain and simple.  For most of us here, Microsoft technologies will lower our working wages.  For the few star programmers, that won't happen.  For the rest of us unless wefind a niche we aren't gonna earn didly.  We are the commodity coders.

Flax, oil, corn, computer programmers - all commodities
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Wouldn't high level IDEs turn already good programmers into great programmers?

Matthew Lock
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

Worked for me.. yesterday I was a good programmer, this morning I downloaded the Whidbey beta and now I'm a great programmer. Have you seen all the features the VC++ team added?  I nearly crapped my pants!  Like POGO - Profile Guided Optimumzations.  And .NET CLR - now C++ and .NET make sense, it's no longer the horrid stinking mess it was in VC++ 7.0.

I'd say GCC and the other C++ compilers just took a swift kick to the groin.  The Microsoft C++ team has been haulin' ass. Kudos, guys.

Great Programmer
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

"Wouldn't high level IDEs turn already good programmers into great programmers? "

That depends on the programmer, I would think.

Does a faster car make someone a better driver?

Do more features in Microsoft Word make someone a better writer?

Full name:
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

But those examples aren't related to the skill. Having a better IDE *will* make it easier to write code - and writing code is related to being a better programmer. Your examples are like saying a faster computer will make you a better programmer.

Matthew Lock
Tuesday, June 29, 2004

A high-level IDE might make a good programmer more productive, but a great programmer? Not necessarily.

It doesn't matter how great the IDE is if the programmer doesn't know how to make full use of all the features of the IDE. An IDE may have menu items for different types of code refactorings, for example, but if the programmer doesn't understand what a code refactoring is, odds are the programmer will either not utilize or will underutilize that feature of the IDE.

And how do you distinguish a 'good programmer' from a 'great programmer'? Is a 'grear programmer' a 'good programmer' that just writes more lines of code per minute? Or is a 'great programmer' a 'good programmer' that writes fewer bugs in their code per minute? Or is a 'great programmer' a 'good programmer' who makes use of design patterns appropriately?

There are good programmers who use IDEs and there are good programmers who don't. There are great programmers who use IDEs and there are great programmers who don't.

I think you're placing too much faith in the ability of an IDE, no matter how feature-laden and how well-constructed, to turn a 'good programmer' into a 'great programmer'.

Full name:
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

s /'grear programmer'/'great programmer'

Full name:
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

>Wouldn't high level IDEs turn already good programmers into >great programmers?

I think you would need to define good and great programmers
first. IMHO great programming is related more to
deeper problem solving and quality rather
than rate of production.

son of parnas
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Wow I didn't know so many people didn't understand what the words "good" and "great" meant? Here's the definitions for you 2:

good: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=good

great: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=great

Now take those adjectives above with their meaning and add them to the noun "programmer". You'll then know what "good programmer" and "great programmer" mean.

Matthew Lock
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Just *tried* to install VS Express.

Downloaded all 199 MB and got halfway through install and it just stopped. Waited 4 hours.

Of course this is the .net framework 2.0 *BETA*.

Sigh... once again I'm Microsoft's Beta tester. 

Yo you get what you pay for.

Mr. Analogy
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

"Sigh... once again I'm Microsoft's Beta tester."

Yeah, that's why they call it a BETA release, you stupid fuck.

Mr Fancypants
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

There's some real charmers on this forum aren't there.

Matthew Lock
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Hey I wonder if I could hack togther a "killfile" for some of these users with proximotron.

Matthew Lock
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

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anderson77
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

There is a bullet with your name on it.

Simon Lucy
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

What I meant to say was:

I'm not sniffy about Express versions of this or that, the more available development tools are for students, enthusiasts and the like the better.

There is this vague creeping horror though that's no doubt inhabiting the poor IT manager's mind at the idea of all this and the phone call in about 6 months time from somebody in the logistics department saying 'I built this database in SQL Server Express and used VB.NET to do all the things I need to do, but now Abraham in Accounting wants to do X with it and I don't know how.  Its a really tiny database really but if you could just...'

Remember Access, let a thousand databases bloom.

Simon Lucy
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

"Wow I didn't know so many people didn't understand what the words "good" and "great" meant? Here's the definitions for you 2:"

*Yawn*. Like so many other things in life, what's considered 'good' or 'great' is often a matter of personal opinion, in part because different people use different criteria by which to judge goodness/greatness.

Tell me, do you think George W. Bush is a 'good' president, a 'great' president, or neither? Whatever your opinion, I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to find someone with the opposite opinion.

Full name:
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

"Remember Access, let a thousand databases bloom."

ROTFLMAO

Gentlemen, start your cartesians.

gambler
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

Re: Access Databases

Fear us, for we are legion.

.
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

"Gentlemen, start your cartesians"

BWAAAAA-hahahahahaha.

I remember those days, early in my career when I had to support users.

We ended up gathering up all the custom dbs that everyone was building and reworking them into one system being fed from SQL Server 6 so everybody could share data.

Ah, those were the days...

Norrick
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

I believe the most popular (as in frequently used) "database" in use is still Microsoft Excel.

Jeremy
Wednesday, June 30, 2004

>> Remember Access, let a thousand databases bloom.

Yes, but unlike SQL Server, Access makes cross database joins practically impossible...!

Mike Schinkel
Thursday, July 01, 2004

>> I believe the most popular (as in frequently used) "database" in use is still Microsoft Excel.

Sadly, I have to agree. :-(

Mike Schinkel
Thursday, July 01, 2004

>Yes, but unlike SQL Server, Access makes cross database joins practically impossible...!

Huh? What you talking about here? (you don’t seem to understand what database is then…??).  You need to do some learning here, and try to understand the difference between a database and a IDE.

I have zero problems with cross database joins when using ms-access. Why is it any harder in VB, c++, vb.net, or ms-access for that matter to do a  cross database join? These are all just IDE’s that let you develop interfaces to your data engine of choice.

ADP projects in ms-access are 100% native oleDB sql applications. When you make a table change, add a new field, or even build a relation between two tables, ms-access sends the ddl commands to sql server (there is no local tables in this case).

Me thinks you don’t understand the difference between a IDE product like VB, or ms-access, and that of a database!

I never had a problem with joins?

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com
http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

Albert D. Kallal
Saturday, July 03, 2004

If MS are targetting "enthusiasts" and "hobbyists" with Express why have they excluded XP home OS users when they moved from MSDN to SQL server Express?

Not many hobbyists will upgrade to XP Pro.

Les
Tuesday, August 17, 2004

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