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"Sharepoint... Sharepoint! which nobody has"

Nobody?  What about these people:

http://www.microsoft.com/resources/casestudies/FindCaseStudyResults.aspx?SearchTypeId=1&Keyword=sharepoint

Kurt
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

q.v. hyperbole and litotes.

Simon Lucy
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

Read Joel's article, and then come back please.

Edward
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

Oh boy -- those people have it! I guess I can feel confident tying my solution in with Sharepoint, forcing my customers to install/manage/buy Sharepoint if they want to use my functionality.

P.S. To those who say "Yeah well it's 'bundled for free' now!", remember that many shops don't want it on their network, free or not.

.
Tuesday, June 22, 2004

Um, cite please re: companies that "don't want SharePoint in their networks"?

Philo

Philo
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

The greatest opposition I've seen to SharePoint (in the OSE/STS/WSS low-end incarnations anyway) has been from box admins.  The feedback has been along the lines of "we support email and file shares, that's all the collaboration you're going to get."

Why the janitors are allowed to make these decisions is beyond me.  Must be due to their godlike power to create email accounts and reset passwords.

Preddie Frinze
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Why do think they call us BOFHs?  Excuse me I've just got to nip off and torture a user...

a cynic writes...
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

-----"Um, cite please re: companies that "don't want SharePoint in their networks"? "-----

So you can bombard them with propaganda?

Well,, if they were competitors :)

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 23, 2004


Actually, I was at two large government agencies for a few years:

The first, didn't have the budget to support MS-anything.  Therefore, they were on the front lines in implementing Open Source solutions within the government.  The solutions fit with what they wanted to do and they could generally get them and deploy them much faster than even submitting a request to buy anything.  And the funny thing is, this agency (well, not really an agency) is the home of the Copyright Office.

The second, refused to implement MS solutions due to security concerns.  They did not allow IE to be used on their network and when I left, they were working heavily with local Linux resellers to figure out how to convert everything over.  The server-side was complete... the user-side was the issue.

KC
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

"So you can bombard them with propaganda?"

No, because I'm calling his bluff on FUD. I've been seeing quite a bit of anti-MS allegations on here lately, and it seems every time I call for a cite, the person posting it goes quiet.

My personal favorite was the "a large number of government agencies won't allow IE anywhere in their organization" I note that KC has finally responded with a grand total of one agency.

An interesting note regarding the Library of Congress (which "doesn't have the money to implement MS solutions"). The idea that internal applications can be designed and delivered faster than a purchase order can be cut is not unique - that's the mother of all Access databases. But when the infrastructure is unix/linux, as LoC is, then obviously the grassroots apps are going to be unix/linux apps, no matter what the budget is. My ISP runs Solaris, and their homegrown utilities are in perl and c - not really a shocker.

(I'm not going to start a TCO debate - just wanted to clarify that there may be a little bit more to it than "MS is too expensive")

Philo

Philo
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

I don't think people are complaining that Sharepoint is too expensive - just that it is too complicated.

Mind you in my part of the world it's the IBM'ers I have to fight against. The MS sales force appears to be dead. They were supposed to give us a presentation on database software in exchange for a free stand at the local exhibition, but didn't bother to turn up. To start with they claimed they had broken down, but when we volunteered to send a car out they admitted they hadn't even left Riyadh.

And I'm arguing 100% for SQL server!

And, on the subject of propaganda has MS started spamming anybody else in the last two days?

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

. , well if you're so down on Sharepoint, then start telling everyone they shouldn't use it.  Then I could actually go home before 9pm and catch up on my reading and expense reports.  I could use a break from all the back to back to back mentoring/implemenation Sharepoint gigs.

Tech - it's either flood or famine.

Unfocused Focused
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Stephen,
  The MS sales force is not out in front for smaller customers - they use use partners for most of those presentations/sales (that I've seen - I've been called in to do a LOT of presentations this past year.)  MS tends to focus on very large customers. 

So if you need presentations/demos - either make sure they've got you classified into the large customer range, or check to see what partners are availible in your area.

Unfocused Focused
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Dear Unfocused,
                        My objection to MS sales is that they informed us they would be taking a booth at the  exhibition and that they would be giving a presentation in return.

                        Half an hour before the presentation was due, they told us they were on the road and might be late. Five minutes after the presentation was due to begin, they claimed they had broken down. It was only after we had all been sitting around for half an hour that they admitted they hadn't left Riyadh, 400 miles away. There's a term to describe it and it starts with lying and finishes with motherfucker.

                          The quality of MS partners are a joke. We called technical support because we couldn't get Exchange server working for a week. The 'partner' they sent configured another copy of Exchange Server, gave it the same name as another server already on the network, and then gave up because it wasn't connecting. Our sysadmins didn't tell him, because if they had they might have had to pay.

                        About five years ago they moved office. They never bothered to check the entry had changed  on the MS web site, so for about a year anybody trying to phone MS Saudi found himself having a conversation with a slightly bemused but very patient and pleasant Saudi housewife.

                          IBM on the other hand are all over us. The problem is they don't have anything I want to buy, except hardware and we can't specify the manufacturer for that.

                     

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

"Um, cite please re: companies that "don't want SharePoint in their networks"? "

Just as there are many companies that don't install IIS or .NET or FTP or telnet or Terminal services or internet printing on their box -- some even install competitive products! Just because it comes in the box, or from the same vendor, doesn't mean you can presume that the IT department wants to install and maintain it, or wants the inevitable security issues it brings to the table.

.
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Why does sharepoint have to have something wrong with it, like security or maintenence headaches, for a company to just not *want* to install it?  I didn't think dot's suggestion was inflamitory, or an anti-Microsoft or anti-Sharepoint allegation, or FUD.  It would be illogical to *assume* that an any given organization will automatically want to use it, just because they can.  Therefore, if a vendor's solution is tied to it, any company that doesn't want to use it simply won't choose that solution.  I don't see why such a simple conclusion should draw a seemingly defensive response, even from a Sharepoint evangelist.

And I'm not picking on you, or Sharepoint, Philo.  I'm just saying the response sounded unecessarily defensive (to me), that's all.

MacSqueeb
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Stephen,
  What area of the country are you located in?  It sounds like you've run into the bottom of the barrel (and I would never, ever tell you they're not out there - I have to work with too many that fall into that category.)  That was not only unprofessional, but stupid.  The mind boggles at how they were going to try to explain away their absence (though I've seen some of them try.) 

On the partners - I've seen that kind far too often too.  We started out with all devs, so we have folks who actually know a solution from a cert manual, but it's always so much easier for a company just to grab a high school kid, run him through a cert bootcamp, and send him out as an "expert."  If you buy something from IBM, you'll run into some of these too - all companies that have learned how to "scale" well have them.  (MY personal fight with my company is for us to NEVER "scale well."  When I lose that fight, it's time to move on.) 

I compete with IBM folks in our region (Texas) and I have some stories that run like yours about some of their sales teams so it's not just Microsoft but all of them.  My favorites are the Oracle sales teams - I think they are required to have at least 2 more people in any sales meeting than the client, just so they can put the other side over to zone defense.

Unfocused Focused
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

MacSqueeb, perhaps I misread it, but the statement as written had the tone that "it doesn't matter how well it works or if it solves our problem; that application will never darken our doorstep, gosh darnit!"

I have not seen that attitude at all. Period. I've seen concerns about support, or about whether or not it's the solution to a specific problem (sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't), but I haven't seen any IT shops cross their arms and state "No SharePoint Here."

From . again:
"Just as there are many companies that don't install IIS"

I'll note you still haven't given a cite - you're still just winging it on vague allegations. BTW, I've run into a few places that "don't allow IIS." In every single one of them, when the policy was run to ground, it was found to be "do not install IIS without IT support and a documented business need"

Now I'm not saying that there aren't places that have actual "no IIS" policies in place. But I'd be interested to hear about the shops that don't want it, even if it's free.

Philo

Philo
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

Philo,
  I've run into these shops of which he speaks.  Mostly it's because someone influential read in a magazine somewhere that IIS is the root of all evil and will cause hackers to make millions of dollars by selling all the confidential meeting minutes and valuable proprietary powerpoint decks that said company hides deep in it's servers.

Seriously - some companies really don't need it.  It takes me back every once in a while when I run into it, but it's true.  But most are overreacting to sensationalist press coverage. 

But you're welcome to explain to me the client where I was brought in to get their sandbagging ASP.Net developers productive.  Turns out they had decided that letting the developers have access to IIS was a security violation and so all development had to be done, checked in, and then turned over to the systems administrators who would install the app on a server firewalled from the world and then tested by them.  Any errors would be written up and filed in a standard error form - and that's all they got back.  The devs would go back and try again (oh, and none of the install/test process was automated, it was all manual.)  Needless to say I had LOTS of suggestions as to how to increase developer productivity.

There are always people out there who will boggle your mind.

There's

Unfocused Focused
Wednesday, June 23, 2004

I'm in Saudi Arabia. Jubail to be precise. MS incompetence is actually par for the country, but most other companies are more aggressive about selling. I seem to have meetings about three times a year in which all I'm doing is saying "How Much?", which is a question that they always try to put off, particularly as my next question is "what does it do for all that money standard tools don't do for free?". And I don't work in IT!

IBM here are a class act (they actually have a branch). The salesmen are aggressive but at least they know their stuff. As far as the college goes though educational pricing make MS software a no-brainer.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 24, 2004

Stephen,
  Unfortunately I've never worked with that region with either company.  Not sure what I can suggest there - unless maybe see if you can get feedback to the Microsoft Corporate guys about how their regional people are measureing up in your area?

Unfocused Focused
Thursday, June 24, 2004

It was two years ago, so I'm not over bothered. I only mentioned it as an aside, since the normal idea is that MS salesmen are too pushy. The support thing isn't my pigeon.

I think MS Arabia is an entirely separate company. Used to be.

In fact buying any kind of legit software is a nightmare. On the other hand the pirates deliver to your door and have a any problem money immediately refunded policy. Ways of the world.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 24, 2004

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