Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board




Designers vs Programmers

I've read Joel's API war and related posts, and I have some few points to share.

First of all, I am very much involved in DHTML stuff. I talked to various people, searched the web etc... Here is my conclusion. The current HTML and Javascript is not enough for developers to develop robust applications. One issue is that, Joel talks like as if what we have currently can be extended to develop applications, however web designers will be against that, and looking into CSS and HTML it looks like that they have more free time to push their wishes in W3C. CSS and XHTML are designed for Zeldman type of graphic designers. If you put more complexity, graphic designers will complain.

Second, neither Mozilla nor Opera are strong enough to convince developers to follow them. So far zealots who hate Microsoft follow them, but you don't see them in the real world much. Productivity is very important, being able to recruit new people, train them, reuse and debug code are very important to developers. Mozilla, which already has a solution called XUL is not the solution developers are looking for. There are no developers tools like visual studio .net that can let you to develop easily and rapidly. Even, now, there is not enough documentation for XUL.  It is all hype.

Another issue is, are we trying to solve real world problems, or is this about trying to piss of Microsoft in a childish way like many online trolls do.  Opera is known to bark at Microsoft in various publicity stunts. Similarly, Mozilla says they are trying to isolate Microsoft and colloborate with Apple, Opera etc... But developers are not concerned with pissing off Microsoft now, we are trying to make things easier and better for us. We will follow whoever can solve our problems.

Microsoft's upcoming solutions are more thorough than what WHAT currently talks about. If W3C turns into an anti-Microsoft organization and accepts WHAT's proposals, that would only hurt W3C, since W3C is relavent today because Microsoft supported it in many levels including sending its own employees to this organizatin. If the idea is to isolate Microsoft, I don't think we will solve problems that way, we will create more problems. Many trolls will enjoy this situation but as a developer you have to learn two different things. W3C was there not to hurt Microsoft and Mozilla's and Opera's childish attittude will not help us as developers, if they have their day in W3C.

Finally, I think Microsoft's new solutions are good. I do hope that they make it more public so that we can use the same technology in different platforms easily. Mono can help us to accomplish that. Otherwise, somebody should put resources and implement something as good as XAML. I know that neither Mozilla nor Opera can do it alone, so only if IBM and/or Sun put their resources to this, then WHAT may become a real contender in this race. Otherwise just look at where SVG is today. Coming up with standards is not enough, you have to implement it and then distribute it. SVG has been started in 1999, maybe before, this year is 2004 and we still don't have SVG default support in browsers. Let's not kid ourselves here, Microsoft can solve this, Mozilla and Opera can not. Opera should at least first try to make its browser as good as Mozilla for DHTML before going into WHAT. As a developer I would be much more happier.

Christian
Saturday, June 19, 2004

The last paragraph contradicts the previous ones.
You should decide if Microsoft is the only one capable of establishing standards or not.

Dewd
Saturday, June 19, 2004

"One issue is that, Joel talks like as if what we have currently can be extended to develop applications, however web designers will be against that, and looking into CSS and HTML it looks like that they have more free time to push their wishes in W3C."

Huh?

Anony Coward
Sunday, June 20, 2004

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home