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All is revealed

Check it out: http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2004/06/15.html

Joel has been so wrapped up in his new browser that he's been too busy to write here.

W/B Joel.

Steve Jones (UK)
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

I found that the most compelling feature of FireFox 0.8 was it's tendency to corrupt its own files during simple operations like changing themes and then refusing to function whatsoever thereafter.

Yep.

I loved the ad and pop up blocking, the tabbed browsing, but the "hopelessly irrecoverable crash" bug sorta curtailed the whole experience for me.  Call me a wacky guy.

muppet is now from madebymonkeys.net
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

I just downloaded and installed 0.9. We'll see how it goes as an IE replacement.

Captain McFly
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

FireFox fire rocks! Once you install Adblock and NukeAnything you will never go back to IE.

Matthew Lock
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

mmm...I'll be very happy once we hit 1.0 and the extentions don't have to reinstalled all the time (guess how I spent my morning).

Other than that- yes it's brilliant.

a cynic writes...
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Is it me or Firefox 9 is noticeably slower than Firefox 8? And the theme looks clunkier too... :|

RP
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

interesting that when I go to www.microsoft.com with firefox it times out despite all being will in IE.

chorus
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

OK, what is the Firefox strategy for mass market saturation?  Currently IE has about 92%+ of the browser market.

What will make me want to spend scarce dollars to ensure my web application works well on both IE and Firefox?  This takes time and if I know that I can run on at least 92% of the desktops OK, where is the compelling reason to spend the additional $$ to ensure compliance with Firefox?

I am not an IE bigot, just someone trying to keep things going with a whole lot less $$ than I used to have.

Betamax was (is) better, CPM supposedly was better, etc...

It's hard to fight the Marketplace
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

A very good IE-based tabbed browser can be found at http://www.myie2.com/

The original tabbed browser, which was available before Opera and Firefox is NetCaptor, http://www.netcaptor.com/

Both browsers are still competitive and better than FireFox.

Michael
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

I just noticed that on Win XP Pro, at 1024xsomething and 24bits color, Firefox 9 is not rendering this page correctly.

And yes, it is definitely slower now.

RP
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

> I just noticed that on Win XP Pro, at 1024xsomething and 24bits color, Firefox 9 is not rendering this page correctly.
>
> And yes, it is definitely slower now.

I'm having no problems on the same setup (except my system is setup with 32 bit color).

SC
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

"This takes time and if I know that I can run on at least 92% of the desktops OK, where is the compelling reason to spend the additional $$ to ensure compliance with Firefox?"

8% of desktops is hardly a small number, and very few firms simply disregard that market, particularly given how easy it is to make a fully featured web application that works equally amongst IE and all of the modern competitors (I use mozilla almost exclusively and I'd say 99% of sites work perfectly. Apart from msdn.microsoft.com, any other site that I discover that doesn't work I just close the tab and move on - they've lost my business. The dumb thing is that usually it's some trivial thing that would have cost them minutes). More importantly, though, and this holds true even if IE had 99.9% of the market - virtually everyone wants to know that their investment is safe regardless of shifts in the market, and that they are not being held hostage by one vendor. It's for that reason that XAML is going to go over like a lead balloon on the common internet, just as virtually every other IE specific technology (behavoiurs, ActiveX, the Microsoft channel format, etc. etc. etc) has.

Dennis Forbes
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

My thoughts:

-Mozilla is to bloated.
-IE has security issues and once I clicked on a link in a forum and it installed some weird stuff without asking me and that I couldn't remove 100%. From a google search I learned I wasn't the only one.
- Firefox is just about right
- I like the customize toolbar feature from firefox a lot easier then most Win32 applications.
- IE tabbed browsing add ons are to bloated. I just need tabs and popup blocking not a zillion other features. This is the reason why firefox split from Mozilla.
- I don't don't like the new way Firefox 0.9 imports without asking me my IE bookmarks (I hardly use IE) that I never put there anyway but some third party applications (Yahoo, Real, MS) and then deletes my old firefox bookmarks and replaces it with useless IE bookmars. This all without asking me anything. I had to do a system restore to get my old bookmarks back.

somemorone
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Dennis,

I hope your right.  My fear is if one vendor continues to rule the desktop, I my life will be an endless succession of unexplained problems.  Say like this:
http://www.baus.net/archives/000103.html

christopher baus (www.baus.net)
Tuesday, June 15, 2004



I'm fighting the "well, it works in IE fight" at work right now.  I'm working with a crew that has *only* developed using ASP for IE for the past 4 years.

They always say, "well, it works for 95% of the market."


I always point out that with just a tiny bit more effort, we can be standards-compliant, not pigeon-hole our skillsets, appeal to that last segment of the market.

Even more importantly, I have worked for 2 large government agencies that simply no longer allow usage of IE due to all of the security problems.  Therefore, by *only* supporting that, we're purposely locking ourselves out of those agencies.  Arg.

KC
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

It's the nicest thing that I've seen in a while. Two actually!
The first, is that Firefox is progressing very well, and currently I wish everybody switch to it.  The second, is that Joel had the balls to say something so true and at the same time so explosive. I am very content with both phoenixes. :-)

Joao
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

I tried FireFox a few months ago.  I'd heard lots of good stuff and wanted to try to get away from IE.  After about two weeks, I switched back.

I had two gripes that finally got the better of me.  First, it was SLOOOW.  I had heard how it was so much fast than IE, but I found the opposite.

Second, it can't import cookies from IE.  I had no idea how many sites I could seemlessly use without relogging in until I lost all of my cookies.  I got tired of trying to remember username and passwords to sites that I only occassionally use.  Having to remember my password, re-register or "email my password" just got too tedious.  I don't want to spend 5 minutes just so I can read a five paragraph news article.

So, I went back to IE and I'm still waiting for a reason to change.

David (www.davesez.com)
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Lynx is the *BEST* Web browser there is, hands down. So there's no point yammering on and on about FireFox, FireFly, FireBug, etc. or Communicator, Navigator, Fornicator, etc. or Internet Explorer, Dora the Explorer, etc.

Wisea**
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

"Second, it can't import cookies from IE."

Mine just did?

Captain McFly
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

Dennis, I certainly agree with your comments.  The web site I support is more like an application for our customers.  It is not a trivial exercise to get it to work and look the same (essentially) in both IE and other browsers.  Up until now (maybe) Netscape/Mozilla/Firefox was buggy and has a very uncertain future.

My team is resource constrained and has tight deadlines.  when the business put those kind of constraints on us we told them something had to give - it ended up being multiple browser support.  I would like to be able to support IE/Opera/Mozilla, et al, but the reality just is not there right now.

Again, what is the strategy for mass market deployment?  The current download model will not achieve saturation.  It will just do the same as Opera, a small, but strong and loyal base.  Having it become part of the AOL browser won't do it either.

It's hard to fight the Marketplace
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

If it can import cookies, that may be new.  At the time, it couldn't and said so.  I even googled for workarounds and found none.

If it can now, I might just try again.

David (www.davesez.com)
Tuesday, June 15, 2004

The 'well it works in IE' attitude drives me absolutely nuts (maybe that's what did it). Do  people with this attitude not have basic arithemetic? Perhaps their arithemtic brain-cell was taken over by the Arrogant Prick brain cell. 300 million PCs I saw recently, 5% of that is quite a few potential customers to upset. Imagine having a shop where the staff belted  every 20th customer as they walked in, then looked at them and told them to @#$@!# off because we don't like the brand of shoes you're wearing.

The other 5% matter

bah humbug
Wednesday, June 16, 2004

What is the difference between Mozilla and Firefox?

Mike
Wednesday, June 16, 2004

Mozilla is the development platform with all the bits in - browser, e-mail, calendar, chat etc.  Firefox is browser only.

a cynic writes...
Wednesday, June 16, 2004

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