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IT Salaries in Europe

Greetings,
What are the IT salaries in europe (Germany, Switrzerland, France region) for application developers starting, mid and high end ?. What i mean by an application developer -->is a person who develops applicaitons revolving around a database.

Please give the figures in Euro or Dollars please.

IT Salaries
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

$43,256.79


Wednesday, June 09, 2004

45

sd
Wednesday, June 09, 2004


Is that "45" before or after taxes?

KC
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

42, man. The answer is 42.

Alex
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

sid6581
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Between 30000 and 80000 €, before taxes.
More in Switzerland.

Makar
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Salaries in Sweden, and I'd say roughly Finland and Denmark also, is around 2500-3500e (before tax).

If you're an employer you should be aware of alot of additional taxes(per employee) on your side though..

Swede
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Just be aware that you'll also need to take tax rates into account. If the greedy taxman (of <insert european country with socialist left-wing policy makers here> takes updwards 50% of your earnings then you may not be that better off than you would be in a country with lower taxes on a lesser rate of pay.

Hey, if you decide to relocate take solace in the fact that the beer in Europe is pretty good. ;-)

Anon
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Its not like there are loads and loads of jobs around though...

Eric Debois
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Yeah, anybody have any current unemployment rates for Germany, UK, France, etc?

Joe
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

> anybody have any current unemployment rates for

If only there was a freely available large store of information?

and methods to search this store?

Hmm *cough*, internet, *cough*, google, *cough* *cough*

--
ee

eclectic_echidna
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

I find  http://www.jobserve.com/  quite ok for the UK

Liam
Thursday, June 10, 2004

---" If the greedy taxman (of <insert european country with socialist left-wing policy makers here> takes updwards 50% of your earnings then you may not be that better off than you would be in a country with lower taxes on a lesser rate of pay."------

Perhaps some American could add up the taxes in European countries (including employers national insurance contributions and local property taxes and VAT) and then compare them with taxes in the US (including state income tax, school board tax and equivalents, local sales tax, the cost of private health care, the cost of saving for the state pension you pay for out of national insurance and taxes in Europe); he might be quite surprised.

Also comparing public spending under right-wing and socialist governments would be interesting. As far as I can tell there is little difference in the amount of public money either throws around. All that is different is who they collect it from and who it goes to.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 10, 2004

It's not just pretty good, it's darn good! :) The beer that is. No American making love in a canoe kind of beer ;)

European
Thursday, June 10, 2004

In the UK - starting around £20-25K (€30-38K), mid-level around £30-40K (€45-60K), high-level £45K+ (€68K).

Bear in mind that salaries vary enormously depending on industry, region and competencies. I've known relatively junior devs on £40K, but only in banking and finance.

As to how high you can go - the sky's the limit, really. Top level technical architects or really senior consultants can be looking at £100K+.

Because the market is still fairly depressed (although not as bad in the UK as in many EU states, and getting better by the week) salaries are on the low side right now.

Neil Hewitt
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Spain: mid/high level developer salaries varies between 30.000 € and 42.000 € per year before taxes.

Beyond that is management.

Pathetic, I know.

Daniel Tio
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"Yeah, anybody have any current unemployment rates for Germany, UK, France, etc?"

UK ~5%
Germany ~11%
France ~9%
Belgium ~11%

Salaries vary hugely by country and industry.  From E20K - E120K.

Furious George
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Alex, if the anwser is 42 then what is the question?

Gen'xer
Thursday, June 10, 2004

In Denmark it would be something like USD 3000 (per month) for beginners, USD 4-6000 for mid-level and, well, the sky's the limit for high-end (I've encountered a guy valued at USD 30000/month as an independent consultant, and even I considered him worth every penny). Depends on what system and current demand and such. SAP? Oh yes please. I think the going rate is USD 15000 just for the certification, more if you've got skillz and street cred.

The tax rate is hovering just below 50% (depending on locality - local taxes can take that down as much as 6-8 % IRRC) but then doctors, hospitals, libraries, schools, roads (but not all bridges) etc. are free, with a few notable exceptions - dentists and chiropractors. They are subsidized and it's still cheaper to go to Sweden for those services. Yes, weird.

VAT is 25% on everything (with very few exceptions, alternative therapy being one), and on cars there's an extra 180% to be allowed to drive it (registration tax - won't get license plates without it). Yes. 180%. Really. Just say no... Oh, and gas - last price seen was USD 1,50 per liter. Not gallon. VAT included but that's scant comfort. Yes, I *do* love my bike. :-)

Oh, and most of us speak English. Broken, battered, sometimes pidgin, but we do. Mi inglish iz veri gud...


PS: As for 42 - the question is "What is 6 times 8?", not "How many layers does the cake of life have?" or anything silly like that.

Morten of Denmark
Thursday, June 10, 2004

If 6x8 = 42 that helps to explain how Danes manage to pay 50% in taxes.

Simon Lucy
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"The answer is 42" -- comes from "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" by the late Douglas Adams.  They built the greatest computer ever to provide the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything.

The answer was 42.

They then built an even greater computer to find out what the most important QUESTION was, to which the answer was 42.  This computer was called, "the Earth".

Unfortunately, the Earth's inhabitants were screwed up early in the process, AND the Earth was destroyed (in the story) just before the question could be given.  The screwed up question was, "What is 6 x 9" -- but that was the point, that question was incorrect.

Thank you, Douglas Adams and the BBC.

AllanL5
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"including employers national insurance contributions and local property taxes and VAT) and then compare them with taxes in the US (including state income tax, school board tax and equivalents, local sales tax, the cost of private health care, the cost of saving for the state pension you pay for out of national insurance and taxes in Europe); he might be quite surprised."

Well firstly, an employer's contributions doesn't affect take home pay so we're talking apples and oranges here, Stephen.

You mention property taxes. Do Europeans not pay property taxes? School taxes?

My salary is roughly $95,000 US.

I pay around $200 month for health insurance for myself and my family and it covers virtually all of our expenses.

I pay around $5000 a year in school and property taxes.

I don't pay a state income tax.

I paid roughly $6000 in FICA (Social Security) taxes last year.

My federal tax liability last year ran around $12,500.

From what I understand, that leaves me with more disposable income than an equal earner in Europe.

Augustus
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Correction: I spend around $300/month on insurance. Oops.

Augustus
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"takes updwards 50% of your earnings then you may not be that better off than you would be in a country with lower taxes on a lesser rate of pay."

The taxes the employee pays really isn't the issue. It's the crushing taxes and benefits that European employers are required to pay that has a larger effect on the job market, and thusly, salaries in Europe.

It's bad enough here in the US, but from what I hear from some European entrepreneurs it's even worse there. From their perspective, it just doesn't pay to build a business in Europe where the government has their hand out constantly. So many of them come here to the US to open their businesses.

They laugh at me when I complain about all the paperwork and employer specific taxes I have to pay. They just laugh.

Max
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Out of my monthly wage, around 13% goes to national insurance contributions, 32.6% to taxes, leaving me with a net salary of around 54.4% .

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, June 10, 2004


"Germany ~11%
France ~9%
Belgium ~11%"

I didn't believe those unemployment rates for Europe, so I Google'd it and sure enough, those are pretty close. (Germany is down to about 10.3%)

For comparison, the US has an unemployment rate of 5.6% right now. (http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.nr0.htm)

Now, the American economy is largely still in the toilet, but we're still only at 5.6% unemployment.

I'm not waving the US flag or being jingoistic, I'm just simply amazed that the European unemployment rate is that much higher than ours. Regarding what a previous poster said, does anyone else think that their socialistic policies are partly to blame?

Geesh
Thursday, June 10, 2004

The adoption of a single European currency is to blame.

Regular
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"The adoption of a single European currency is to blame."

... that's the answer, but what was the question! :)

John
Thursday, June 10, 2004

i for one am happy we have these socialistic policies in germany. i know that everyone who is in need will be taken care of.

you're broke and need to see a doctor? there is still help for you. you can't get a job and need a place to stay? you're welcome. and i think (but i don't have the numbers to support this) that we have a lower crime rate.

of course this system is expensive and of course there are always some who abuse it, but overall i'm very happy with it.

steffen
Thursday, June 10, 2004

As for the lower unemployment rate in the U.S... How many of these jobs are paid so low that you could just stay at home as well?

John
Thursday, June 10, 2004

" i know that everyone who is in need will be taken care of."

Will be interesting to see the state of the pesion funds once the babyboomers have emptied the trough. Will the next generations accept an income tax of 80% too keep solidarity with the elderly? How will they keep businessess inside the country? Or will they go the massive immigration route?

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"i for one am happy we have these socialistic policies in germany. i know that everyone who is in need will be taken care of. "

By whom? The government? Where does the government get it's money? From taxes, right? If people aren't working, then they aren't paying taxes, right?

And in Germany, 10% of the people aren't working. See a problem? Where's that next round of handouts going to come from? Who is going to pay for it?

The "All my needs are provided for" sounds great in theory and it works for a time, but eventually you have to pay the piper. Europe is seeing the effects of it's "cradle to grave" liberal policies with it's soaring unemployment and desolate economic opportunities.

X
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Don't you sometimes get the feeling that the whole of the "socialist policies" in Europe are a giant piramide scheme? You pay your dues, but we better get some rich new suckers in fast or this whole pyramid is going to collapse and our tickets will be worthless.

I am all for solidarity, and no fan of boundless radical capitalism, but something smells fishy about the way this is all set up. 

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"Germany ~11%"
...
"can't get a job and need a place to stay? you're welcome"
...

How about: "I'll get a place to stay anyway, who needs a job?"

Robert
Thursday, June 10, 2004

"Europe is seeing the effects of it's "cradle to grave" liberal policies with it's soaring unemployment and desolate economic opportunities. "

Perhaps, but just try and stop it. This is the ugly side of democracy. Liberal policies like this are easy to sell to the people. Who doesn't want "the other guy" to pay for it? It's easy to sell something that sounds like "the rich guy" is going to have to pay for.

So politicians love to sell liberal ideals because people love the concept of free services and the politican gets voted into office. All the while, the politicans know good and well these liberal policies will spell doom and economic devastation years down the road. But what do they care? They've got power today. And *that's* what is important.

A much harder sell is the concept of self-sufficiency and self-reliance and not depending on the government to meet your all of your needs. No, that doesn't sound fun at all. Gimme my free stuff. Let the other guy pay for it. Of course, that "other guy" will eventually be you.

So politicans will keep peddling what the people want, even if what they want is not sustainable in the long run.

This generation has witnessed the collapse of the largest socialistic empire the world has known, we've seen China begun to learn that capitalism has an amazing way of boosting an economy and we've witnessed Europe tax itself to economic oblivion to support it's liberal policies.

But yet...because most people don't pay attention we'll have another crop of politicans that will continue to parade the ill-conceived concept that the government does a better job of taking care of you than you can yourself. Although it's been shown to wreak economic chaos, the politicans don't care because the people continue to buy the lie, hook line and sinker.

Politico
Thursday, June 10, 2004

---"Well firstly, an employer's contributions doesn't affect take home pay so we're talking apples and oranges here, Stephen."----

NO! NO! NO! It merely appears they don't affect your take home pay, and because there are more employees than employers it is politically expedient to tax those with less votes, but in fact the effect is the same.

An employer in France or Spain will pay say $3000 a month for a worker; the worker will get a take-home pay of $1,800; that is made up of approx $800 employers contributions to National Insurance and gross pay of $2,200 with deductions of about $400 for employees National Insurance and round about 10% tax. In the UK the employer will pay around $300 in National Insurance contributions leaving $2,700 for the employee who then sees tax and NI contributions whittle that down to almost the same level (the take home pay wiould probably be a little higher because local taxation is higher in the UK tnan in France or Spain).

Now the point is that to the taxpayer it looks as if he is paying more tax in the UK than he is in France or Spain, but it is palpably not so. In fact the French and Spanish systems merely encourage widespread fraud, but it is a brave politician who will change the way of doing the balance sheet.

You mention property taxes. Do Europeans not pay property taxes? School taxes?"----

You've not read the post clearly. Property taxes are in the European list. School taxes incidentally are not levied separately in any European country I know of.

You are correct that with an income of $95,000 you would be better off in the US. But your medical expenses would be the same ($3,600 ?) if you earned $30,000, and at that level you almost certainly would not be better off all told. Which is my point - that the major difference between the right and left is not how much fiscal pressure they apply, but who they apply it to. Also, the fact that the US is running a huge budeget deficit should be taken into account. Surpising though it may seem, in the UK and US, in the last twenty years or so, it is the left that has been the party of fiscal responsiblity and the right that has been raising money on the never never.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Dear Politico,
                    In economics 'liberal' in Europe means the exact opposite of what it means in the States. Milton Friedman is a liberal economist, and Reaganomics are the supposed application of liberalism.

                    The fact that you don't know this elementary piece of terminology suggests your opinions on European economic policy aren't based on a very close analysis.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Salaries don't matter. Taxes don't matter (much). What matters is GDP.

Taxes may be high in a place like Germany, but people get those taxes back in the form of tuition-free university education, uniformly good schools, good public infrastructure, great welfare services etc.

In a low-tax country, you pay less tax but have to pay to make up for all the things the government doesn't provide.

So at the end of the day only GDP matters.

(Though of course public services are horribly inefficient and people will get more value for the dollar if services were provided by private enterprise.)

Jeremy
Friday, June 11, 2004

> So at the end of the day only GDP matters.

This is a very crude measure of country wealth. China currently has the 2nd highest GDP, but one of the largest income gaps. In terms of GDP per person, we should all move to Luxembourg. It'll be crowded, it's a small place.

> (Though of course public services are horribly inefficient
> and people will get more value for the dollar if services
> were provided by private enterprise.)

On what basis do you make this judgement? After all, private enterprise is, normally, there to make a profit, public services don't. And in terms of providing a service, which is more important? One that provides a necessary service to users, or one that is run to maximise private shareholder value? These two aims do not necessarily coincide.

For example, taking this argument to it's logical conclusion, you would privatise the army. It is after all a public service providing protection for the citizens of a country, and undoubtedly inefficient. Let's imagine it's privatised and the country is at peace. Cut staff training, it's cutting into profit margins. Hey, one step more, who needs staff! Not needed and totally inefficent - after all, they're not doing anything. R&D, you kidding me, who needs that?

Hmmm, not a bad way forward for world peace this :)

el
Friday, June 11, 2004

>"On what basis do you make this judgement?"

Years of close experience

>"After all, private enterprise is, normally, there to make a profit, public services don't. And in terms of providing a service, which is more important? One that provides a necessary service to users, or one that is run to maximise private shareholder value? These two aims do not necessarily coincide."

What about competing licenced private companies that are performance monitored?

Just me (Sir to you)
Friday, June 11, 2004

>>On what basis do you make this judgement? After all, private enterprise is, normally, there to make a profit, public services don't. And in terms of providing a service, which is more important? One that provides a necessary service to users, or one that is run to maximise private shareholder value? These two aims do not necessarily coincide.<<

You're right about those two aims not always coinciding, but I thought we're done and over with the question of which is better, socialism or capitalism? The last time I looked, there was almost unanimous worldwide concensus that capitalism is the way to go. I mean, can you imagine Wal-Mart being run by the US government?

And yes, I meant GDP per head. Like Luxemburg. Or better still, like Switzerland.

Jeremy
Friday, June 11, 2004

Also, when was the last time anyone heard of a government department downsizing?

Jeremy
Friday, June 11, 2004

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