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Whats the deal with these hackers?

I've just started working for an I.T. security firm in Florida, and most of the various institutions in the state have repeatedly been hacked, although most are unsuccessful. Most of our hackers seem to be Israeli based. We've contacted the isp's in question, but we are unsure if any followups are being done. I find it strange that the hacking is coming from over that part of the world. The hacking is not just for monetery gains. Political messages are being left on successful hacks. Like last nights message of
"MAY KERRY AND NADER DIE"
I'm not really a man of politics, but I thought we had good relations with Israel?.
My supervisor was telling me, the issue is not where its coming from that should be the issue, but if some sort of prosectution is being undetaken. And he believes that it might not be the case. We are currently exploring other avenues to take further measures, even if it means taking it up through the Florida Department of Justice.
Can anyone give recommendations or there 2 cents would just be fine as well.

Jake D.
Monday, June 07, 2004

You're probably right; I think this is an indication that Israel-US relations are going to pot :-}

Seriously though, the ISP probably has no great incentive to try and deal with the crackers. Maybe the DoJ can light a fire under their ass...

ICBW
Monday, June 07, 2004

When i was working for Mcafee, same deal. We nicked name these hackers The TATS,,,TEL AVIV TERRORISTS. :)
The best to do is to contact law enforcements in Israel itself. The problem is, they can be somewhat arrogant at times. So its best to take a high diplomatic approach. If you can, get a Hebrew speaker to talk to them, and have the ip and isp details on hand, and time/date of denial of service attack.

Sammy Gonzales
Monday, June 07, 2004

What i mean is, its puzzling that such attacks are not coming from the nations we would expect it to come from

Jake D.
Monday, June 07, 2004

Well, they blew up the US Liberty back in '67. Its just a continuation in the "friendly" alliance. If the Lyndon Johnson administration couldnt do anything about it, what makes you think you'll get far.?

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004

"what makes you think you'll get far.?"

I think there is something called the "rule of law".

Jake D.
Monday, June 07, 2004

Rule of whose law? Running where?

.
Monday, June 07, 2004

You mean to say there is no agreements between two states?, or the overly used "international law" jargon.

Jake D.
Monday, June 07, 2004

It certainly could be argued that they have broken US law as the systems are located in US territory. Whether you could get the suspects extradited is another matter.

Of course, IANAL
Monday, June 07, 2004

Jake,
There is a law that America applies for the rest of the world. And special laws for Israel.
eg Israel CERTAINLY has weapons of mass destruction, Iraq PROBABLY has womd's. So what do you do?, invade the country that poses the less threat.
sorry to break it to u, but this is reality buddy.

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004

>What i mean is, its puzzling that such attacks are not
>coming from the nations we would expect it to come from

What makes you think the Israeli machines that you see in your Florida logs was not compromised as well?

Multi level attacks has been known to happen before.

Not Israeli
Monday, June 07, 2004

Nice... so just because an attack come from an Israeli ISP, Israel is automatically to blame and all the Israel haters popup... ever heard of multiple proxy bouncing?

An Israeli
Monday, June 07, 2004

I like the word "prosectution"

I guess that's when the district attorney screws you for your money?

Philo

Philo
Monday, June 07, 2004

"ever heard of multiple proxy bouncing?"
I've heard of everything except Israel admiting to be at fault.
My apologies, I forgot what our ass-kissing politicians told me, that Israel is above criticism and can do no wrong.
May God bless the land of Israel and curse everyone who speaks ill of it.

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004

Talking of lawyers and getting screwed...

A lawyer married a woman who had previously divorced ten husbands. On their wedding night, she told her new husband, "Please be gentle, I'm still a virgin."

"What?" said the puzzled groom. "How can that be if you've been married ten times?"

"Well, husband #1 was a sales representative. He kept telling me how great it was going to be.

Husband #2 was in software services. He was never really sure how it was supposed to function, but he said he'd look into it and get back to me.

Husband #3 was from field services. He said everything checked out diagnostically but he just couldn't get the system up.

Husband #4 was in telemarketing. Even though he knew he had the order, he didn't know when he would be able to deliver."

"Husband #5 was an engineer. He understood the basic process but wanted three years to research, implement, and design a new state-of-the-art method.

Husband #6 was from finance and administration. He thought he knew how, but he wasn't sure whether it was his job or not.

Husband #7 was in marketing. Although he had a nice product, he was never sure how to position it."

"Husband #8 was a psychologist. All he ever did was talk about it.

Husband #9 was a gynecologist. All he did was look at it.

Husband #10 was a stamp collector. All he ever did was... God! I miss him!

But now that I've married you, I'm really excited!"
"Good," said the new husband, "but, why?"
"You're a lawyer. This time I know I'm gonna get screwed!"


Monday, June 07, 2004

Interesting and partially relevant article
http://sf.indymedia.org/news/2002/09/144911.php

I wonder how soon it will be before this site is hacked... :)

PeaceForAll
Monday, June 07, 2004

Actually Mr Israeli, Israel is indirectly to blame for most of the shit that the middle east happens to be in today. Get your hands out of our congress and stop playing with our dumb politicians "I'll vote for you if you lick sharons ass" game.
I'll speak my mind, and though what i say might not be related to the thread. I like, anyone else, live with the fact that the world has become such a dangerous place. And Israel is making the situation more F#%@ed up then ever before. No wonder why Europe found you lot to be more of a threat then North Korea or Iran. One day hopefully America will wake up.
(Why do I hear a whisper of anti-semite coming my way, ever heard of the boy who cried wolf?)

"It is not anti-Semitic to criticize the policies of the state of Israel." -- Colin Powell

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004

Anybody else willing to bet "America First" is the same guy currently posting his shrill illiteracy under "stay away yank" on the New Zealand thread?


Monday, June 07, 2004

Sorry pal, you lost the bet

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004

Hi guys, remember me??, I posted the original question. And would love to have an answer.
I feel like I'm getting a lesson in international affairs, then getting an answer for my problem :(

Jake D.
Monday, June 07, 2004

There actually have been many studies on what countries have the most hackers per person and Israel usually tops this list.  Remember that Israel has an extremely advanced high tech economy.

http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2873675,00.html

Oren Miller
Monday, June 07, 2004

To Jake:

The fact that the hackers are leaving political messages about Nader and Kerry, makes it suspect that the originators were indeed from Israel, because there is absolutely zero interest in either Nader or Kerry here.

Regarding prosecution, i wouldn't bother if i were you. Prosecuting across country borders could be quite difficult, unless the FBI has good working connections with the authorities here. Just make sure to install all relevant security patches and check the box for any left overs like backdoors or trojans.

Regarding what you said about political relationships with Israel, how is that a factor? If you had hackers that came from Canada, would you ask about the political relationship to Canada?
Just because some people hack from a supposed origin, doesn't make everyone there suspect.

To: America First

I'm sure you'd be happy if Israel didn't exist today, but who would you blame when the terrorists would have come to your country?

An Israeli
Monday, June 07, 2004

Thats the deal my friend, the terrorists came here because of Americas unfair treatment of favouring Israel over Palestinians, even when it is clear enough that Israel has violated so many U.N resolutions. Dont worry, I hold our American politicians responsible too for bowing too the Israeli lobby. I'm not blaming you as an individual Israeli, but the policymakers of your state.

America First
Monday, June 07, 2004


(the same guy who worked on joint DoJ/DoD projects)

There is exactly one organization that has been designated as a terrorist state since the creation of the term...  the PLO.  This designation has existed within US Code since 1954.

During the past two years, I have received many many videos of the so-called "peaceful" protests of pro-Palestinian organizations who "only want peace".  Whether the organization in question is ANSWER (protested in DC in Mar '03, Oct '04, and Mar '04) or any of Hamas' or Hezbollah's front groups (protested at Rutgers Oct '03 or Ohio State Nov '03), they all call for the violent overthrow of Israel.

Even the coverage on CSPAN (for our non-American posters, this is a 24 hour channel which broadcasts Congressional sessions and political discussions), offers this.  Try watching it the next time a "peace protest" is covered.

A regular poster
Monday, June 07, 2004

And what do the Israeli settlers and right wingers want?, Last time I heard them talking at a protest march was advocating the expulsion of all Arabs from Israel. And you think only Israel has reason to worry. sigh.

A concerned Individual
Monday, June 07, 2004

"The fact that the hackers are leaving political messages about Nader and Kerry, makes it suspect that the originators were indeed from Israel, because there is absolutely zero interest in either Nader or Kerry here."

Presumably some Israelis may take the view that a Kerry (or Nader!) administration would be less sympathetic to them than Bush is. Given that, with hackers,  we're probably talking about some pretty immature individuals, writing anti-Kerry graffiti on US web sites might be their response. The attitude of the Israeli government is immaterial. Are all *your* actions and attitudes in line with US government policy? Were they in line when you were a 17-year-old?

As to whether there is any legal response, well, they've probably broken US law, maybe Israeli law too. But you've got to find the individuals concerned and build a case that will stand up in court. I suspect most law enforcement agencies would not think it worth the cost. Would you call in the FBI if you found the same message spray-painted on the building? Would they come?

Just learn to live with it. Given what happened last time, the state of Florida has more important things to worry about with regard to the integrity of Presidential elections that the actions of a few (supposedly) Israeli nerds.

Chris Hunt
Monday, June 07, 2004

In the US, the federal law enforcement typically will not get involved unless the damage is ove $10,000.  Their resources are limited.

All you can do is let the ISP know and report the incident to the FBI.  Sad fact is that most of the time you get ignored by both.

Bill Rushmore
Monday, June 07, 2004

And no one here is smart enough to think of those mad cap funloving muslim extremists.  You know how they love Isreal and the US.  Wouldn't it be "smart" of them to hack Isrealis ISP accounts and hack from there.  Religion of peace my ass.

obvious
Monday, June 07, 2004

Obvious,
I wouldn't be too quick to jump to conclusions, I was a bit disturbed by the link posted by 'PeaceForAll'. But I'm not the type to jump to conclusions.  So I won't comment. But you do sound as bad as 'America First' who is too quick too vent out his frustration at the wrong forum.

Chris,
But I thought Americas Jews were more democratic party leaning?. Anyway, thats not the point here. Another thing, lets pray that Florida gets their voting machines in working order this time round :)

Tommy Buczek
Monday, June 07, 2004

Why don't they invest in locking their boxes down???

Anonymous
Monday, June 07, 2004

"Another thing, lets pray that Florida gets their voting machines in working order this time round :)"

Yes so we don't have to worry about the Democrats trying to steal the election.  From Broward Co "Help I'm too stupid to punch a ballot"

obvious
Monday, June 07, 2004

American Jews are more democratic party leaning by a margin that averages 80 to 20%.  In the last presidential election Jews in America voted in even higher percentages for the Democrats, possibly because of the inclusion of a Jew on the ticket.  A large number of American Jews are appalled or at least embarrassed by the policies of the Sharon government.  In the US you actually find stronger support among right wing Christians, many of whom believe a Jewish state in Israel is a prerequisite for the second coming (or something like that).

In other news, I find it odd that someone using the name "America First" would give a crap about UN resolutions.  The UN is populated by countries (most probably decidedly undemocratic) a majority of which pretty openly hate Israel.  I'm not sure I would follow the resolutions of such a body.

name withheld out of cowardice
Monday, June 07, 2004

I would imagine "mainstream" Israel would favor Bush's policies, rather than Kerry's or Nader's, but that's not the point here.

"Israel" doesn't feel any one way about anything, just as America doesn't. It's made up of lots of different people, with different viewpoints. It sounds like these particular hackers are young - at least, I'd like to think so. The message seems drastically immature, but then again so do most of the protest posters I've seen lately.

Anyway, your bottom line is this:
It doesn't hurt to make their ISP and law enforcement aware of this, but pushing them to act on it will probably be an uphill battle. Protecting your systems through law enforcement will probably be more difficult, time consuming, and expensive than protecting them technically.

Just my two cents.

Geoff
Monday, June 07, 2004

"Why don't they invest in locking their boxes down???"

That's what Al Gore would do.





(CULTURAL NOTE FOR NON-AMERICAN-TV WATCHERS:  THIS IS A REFERENCE TO A PARODY OF THE 2000 US PRESIDENTIAL DEBATES)

Jim Rankin
Monday, June 07, 2004

Jake,

Perhaps I missed another post saying as much (it was hard to see through all of the nonsense your post incited), but consider the very likely possibility that these hack attempts were simply coming *through* Israel.  Without the ISP's help, you really have no way of knowing whether the attacks were coming from hackers in Israel, or from hackers who have rooted systems in Israel. 

Adam

Adam P
Monday, June 07, 2004

name withheld...

Personally I don't have a great deal of time for UN resolutions either.  However, it's not because I think the institution is illegimate but becase I think resolutions are generally the product of political horsetrading amongst the permanent members rather than statements of principle.

The permanent members are: China, France, Russian Federation, United Kingdom, United States.  Any of these can veto a resolution and I think 4 out of 5 have elections.

The others currently are: Chile, Germany, Pakistan, Philippines, Romania, Spain, Algeria, Angola, Benin and Brazil.  I think there's a clear majority of democracies here too (but I'm not sure about Benin). 

Now I could see Algeria & Pakistan as being pretty anti-Israel  but I'm interested to know which of the others are.  Does Brazil have something to hide?  Could you elaborate? It does strike me that for any resolution critical of Israel to be passed even the US doesn't feel it can vote against it, which is let's face it rare.

I suspect the answer to the OPs question is that the hackers have the same deep insightful politcal sense that we've come to expect from teenagers everywhere (snigger).  Whether anyone could be bothered to go through a full extradition is unfortunately debateble.

a cynic writes...
Monday, June 07, 2004

Well, if we don't use the U.N. The fiasco in Iraq is the logical outcome. The whole purpose of international institutions is to better coordinate activities that are of concern to global events. The problem is the Bush administration seems to only use the U.N. when it best suits their needs, and sideling it when it conflicts.
But I do feel the problem of the U.N. needs some serious revamping, as the current structure reflects the victors of world war 2. With France, UK, Russia, US and China being on the permanent security council.
Another problem is the endless vetoing on the part of the U.S., There have been moments when Israel has clearly been in violation of several U.N. resolutions. Yet, as a result of the unbearable pressure that aipac (the prime Israeli lobby group in the U.S) places on the U.S., it is not surprising that we see almost every resolution vetoed. That's partly why the world has this impression that America is enslaved to Israel.
Its kind of ironic, that Israel despises the U.N., as it was the first model state that was given its birthright by the U.N. back in 1948. Therefore making international recognition that much more easier, then it could ever have hoped to acheive on its own. If Israel does feel its "hated" by the UN, it can be no other reason that a continual violation of some 42 council resolutions is cause for concern. Iraq had to violate a mere handful before we invaded and blew their country to smithereens. And yet, Iraqs violation was always questionable. And as the process of time moves on, we are creating the greatest image of hypocrisy, that is making people worldwide simmer with anger. Anger that was once limited to the Arab and Islamic world, is now coming at fullforce from Europe, Asia and to some extent, Latin America.

Dave Levi
Monday, June 07, 2004

Dave Levi,

There are different kinds of resolutions passed by the UN. This makes the situations regarding Israel and the UN as opposed to Iraq and the UN very different.

I've found a nice summary of these differences at this site:

http://www.tzemachdovid.org/Facts/thedifference.shtml

ICBW
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

A Cynic:  Being a democracy has nothing to do with Israel hating or Jew hating.  The French are Jew haters from way back (as are most all European countries).  The idea that the UN is, on average, anti-Israel, has to do with the remarkably different standards they hold Israel to.  It isn't just the UN.  It is most institutions in the world including the media in most countries.

Bear in mind that I am coming from a point of view that the Palestinians have a legitimate gripe and that starting the state of Israel was a mistake.  Still any objective look at the facts shows that Israel is always held to a higher moral standard than other states.  The next time the press and european intellectuals complain of Israelis behavior, ask yourself "would we hear the same level of bitching if another country did the same or worse?"  Think Russians in Chechnya.

name withheld out of cowardice
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

name withheld:

I will agree that security council resolutions are political not principled.  In fact that was my first paragraph.  However given Israel's strongest ally has the ability to stop any UN resolution I think they cannot be dismissed out of hand.  As to whether the members are democracies or not I think you'll find you brought that one up - in what was possibly a throwaway comment at the end of your post.

On the whole I think there's room in the land of Canaan for both Israelis and Palestinians (and also the few hundred Samaritans who everyone forgets about).  Unfortunately I think both peoples have been ill-served by their politicians and the hard-liners going back at least as far as the British Mandate (which in itself was a cock-up from start to finish).

a cynic writes...
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger."
Ariel Sharon, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956.

"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it."
Ariel Sharon to Amos Oz, editor of Davar, Dec. 17, 1982

"The Oslo agreement is very important for the Palestinians since it is the only official agreed-upon document they got. We have another document, a much older one … the Bible.”
Ariel Sharon, speaking at a Washington symposium, 8 May 1998

"Everybody has to move, run and grab as many hilltops as they can to enlarge the settlements because everything we take now will stay ours... Everything we don't grab will go to them."
Ariel Sharon, Israeli Foreign Minister, addressing a meeting of militants from the extreme right-wing Tsomet Party, Agence France Presse, November 15, 1998.

beitshalom.org
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

"I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child..."

For those who read that "quote" and didn't bother researching it: it is not a real comment by Sharon. Nobody was calling the Arabs in Israel Palestinians in 1956. See http://www.geocities.com/myjoy18/arielsharon1956lie.htm for a fuller refutation.

ICBW
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

Ah yeahhhh, a geocities homepage,what a reputable source of info!.

Chris Costello
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

I saw a documentary once on Ariel Sharon, and that comment was made in Hebrew. If I'm not mistaken, I think he used the term "Arab", not Palestinian. If such being the case, then he was unmistakenably refering to the Palestinians.
In any case, the comment would be worthless if it wasn't for his history which illustrates an undertaking of actions that reflect his racist and violent attitude from the massacre of 750 Palestinians in Rafah in the mid-1950's to the indirect massacre of thousands of Palestinian refugees in Sabra and Shatila in 1982.

l.stern
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

I find it kind of strange how Sharon was the symbol of abhorence to many Israelies during the 80's. I can't forget the big march of some 400 000 following the sabra and shatilla massacre. Now he is the prime minister! I guess there is hope for many other aspiring war criminals worldwide.

dchan
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

l.stern:
So you know that the "quote" is not actually a quote, but you still want to believe it?

Chris Costello:
Is this source any better?
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_print=1&x_article=651&x_context=2
(though I don't know what is suspect about a geocities home page, seeing as the facts written there speak for themselves).

ICBW
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

My point is, it is an actual quote, Sharon did say it. If he said Palestinian or Arab, what difference does it make?, he was refering to the same thing. DER

l.Stern
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

The difference is whether he said any such thing at all. If there is no way that Sharon used the word Palestinians to refer to Arabs in 1956, but the word appears 6 times in the "qoute", doesn't that seem like a good reason to believe that it is a fabrication?

The camera.org link says this:
"There is no record of any “General Ouze Merham” or any truth to the claim that Sharon made the quoted comments." What is your source for the quote?

ICBW
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

He said it, or he didn't say it, how will that contradict the fact that he really does massacre. I would rather have him say it, then seeing the words materialize into action. Sadly, he does burn Palestinians in numerious and creative ways; And I aint refering to the primitive matches and kerosene type of burning.

Chris Costello
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

camera.org hahahahaha,,,good one icbw, why not quote me other good sites like Fox News, New York Post and adl,
Their reporting is soooo "accurate".

Chris Costello
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

"I would rather have him say it, then seeing the words materialize into action"

I'll opt for that option too

l.Stern
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Chris, you are right; it doesn't matter if he said it or not, or what any of the facts are. You've already made up your mind about these matters and no argument or source is going to change it. You've shown me once again why it is a waste of time to try to argue these things with random posters on the internet.

I mean, look at your arguments: geocities? that must be crap! camera.org? what a joke! Sharon burns Palestinians every day! I don't need no stinkin' facts!

Sheesh.

ICBW
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

ICBW:

Don't bother with them, i used to argue with that kind of posters all the time, eventually it just repeats itself.

GD
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

Exactly icbw, dont bother. Israel has the land, Palestinians don't. Palestinians are suffering under the occupation, but the Israelis are not. So you don't have to worry about a thing, as long as your ok, then don't sweat. Forget about these postings, Go make yourself a cup of coffee and rest assured that its not your house thats about to be bulldozed while sipping your latte.
Peace Out!

DNA
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

DNA,

I can't! The espresso machine here at work is broken :-(. BTW, great convincing arguments there.

ICBW
Wednesday, June 09, 2004

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