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Software development in New Zealand?

For a while I've been thinking about leaving the US to work and perhaps even settle down.  I've actually worked overseas before for a few years (back in the 90's) and enjoyed it more than living in the US.  The US IT job market being in the crapper, as well as the patent fiasco, makes overseas locations even more attractive.

To the New Zealanders out there, or anybody else who's lived there -- what are the software job prospects like? I notice that IT jobs are on the government's "shortage occupations" list, so apparently there should not be too many legal barriers to working there, but how realistic is it to find an actual job there? I would be willing to visit for 3-6 months while searching.  And how long would it take to get permanent residency there if I wanted to settle down? ... I hope they don't jerk prospective immigrants around for 5-10 years like what is done in the US.

I know that salaries are lower than in the US, but are salaries within that "sweet spot" where they are high enough to live comfortably on, yet low enough that jobs rarely get lost to outsourcing?  Or is getting laid off every year or two a common expectation for software developers?  What could a person with 10 years experience and a Bachelor's in CS expect?

What are salaries like compared to the cost of living?  How expensive are cars compared to the US (US car prices can be found at http://www.edmunds.com) ... does the government slap on high import duties to cars?  What would it cost to rent a 2-bedroom apartment or townhouse in a semi-decent area in a city like Auckland or Wellington?

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Do you like Kiwi fruit?

My Cousin Vinniwashtharam
Sunday, June 06, 2004

You should be moving to Bangalore.

.
Sunday, June 06, 2004

The tech jobs in Bangalore may be plentiful. But for a non-Indian, Bangalore can never be as nice to live in as New Zealand.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Can't say unless you've been there, can you? Though, I must admit I've been only to the arse-end of the world and no lower! But, I do have a cousin who went, migrated to NZ and came back to Hyderabad after a very short stint. Then again different folks, different strokes.

.
Sunday, June 06, 2004

October 2002: The Economist magazine rated Melbourne, Australia as the #1 place in the world for ex-pats to live. Canadian and Scandanavian cities also rated very highly.

New Zealand:

Good things: Damn beautiful, breathtakingly beautiful, great lifestyle, outdoors stuff, excellent quality food.

Bad things: A long way from anywhere - measure the distances on your map, even 2000 km from Australia.

IT industry: Don't know too much, but average wages in NZ are just about as low as they can get in the OECD countries. In fact, some jobs are already outsourced TO NZ! However the cost of living is cheaper too in parallel with the lower wages. But it is unrealistic to go to NZ to make your fortune.

Lifestyle: On an IT wage you will be able to avoid a nice house in a nice area. Cheap second-hand cars imported from Japan are all the rage.

Go for an extended holiday first. Check it out. You really can't get a feel by what I or anyone else says.

Herr Herr
Sunday, June 06, 2004

I am lead developer for a medium sized call center vendor in Auckland. The market in New Zealand is definitely slumped at the moment, post 9/11, Americas cup etc.
Business confidence is also low, due to a non-business friendly goverment.

But all that said and done, there still seems to a quite a few jobs going, the problem we have found is getting quality people.
We are constantly looking for motivated C++ and VB people, but all I see though the door is dross.

People cultter up thier CV's with every 10min job they did using whatever is the new buzzword tech, instead of providing a clean track record of achievment.

Craig
Sunday, June 06, 2004

"But, I do have a cousin who went, migrated to NZ and came back to Hyderabad after a very short stint."

'Back to Hyderabad' ... suggests the person is Indian, correct?  I was speaking from the perspective of a non-Indian.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Yes. Hence my last sentence. Enjoy your stay in Xena land!

.
Sunday, June 06, 2004

> I notice that IT jobs are on the government's "shortage occupations" list

The reason for this is that New Zealand, like Australia, is dumber than America. The governments are more easily sucked in by industry propaganda, such as skill shortages, and local workers are much less likely to complain.

http://australianit.news.com.au/articles/0,7204,9737686%5E15306%5E%5Enbv%5E,00.html

For an American, you would immediately notice the relatively superficiality of the IT industry, and the dearth of quality jobs. Just as an indicator, New Zealand doesn't even have its own air force anymore. It couldn't afford it, so sold all its Skyhawk jets. A recent survey in Australia reported 18 percent unemployment among programmers. New Zealand would be no better.

Most IT work is branch office stuff, providing support. That's in both New Zealand and Australia. Most of the big organisations that might be half decent already send big parts of their work to India.

There have drops in IT enrolments at universities, so the universities, government and incompetent local IT groups have agreed to stop talking about the problems and talk about the "looming shortage."

New Zealand's a nice country to visit or raise sheep.


Sunday, June 06, 2004

Obviously you're thinking of a one way trip, because every dollar you earn will be halved or worse should you decide to return to the U.S.

the grass is always greener
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Yes ... either I'd spend about 3-4 years there, with the goal of enjoying and learning from the experience, while accepting that I won't save much, and then come back to the US ... or if I *really* love it (and perhaps found a good Kiwi woman!) I'd stay.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

"A recent survey in Australia reported 18 percent unemployment among programmers. New Zealand would be no better."

Is that actually true?  NZ != Australia.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Here's a story about the survey.

http://www.zdnet.com.au/insight/business/0,39023749,39116285,00.htm

NZ is more of a backwater than Australia. I'm not aware of actual figures from that country, but can see no reason it would have more healthy employment figures.


Sunday, June 06, 2004

I don't know about Software but the music in NZ sucks:
http://www.wingmusic.co.nz/listen.html

Matthew Lock
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Even if New Zealand is more of a "backwater" than Australia, there still could be better employment prospects for an experienced programmer in NZ, if there are fewer programmers competing for each job and/or the lower salaries mean that fewer jobs are lost to outsourcing.

Those two countries are linked in many ways, but it's not necessarily accurate to extrapolate from one to the other.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

"Most IT work is branch office stuff, providing support. That's in both New Zealand and Australia."

I've worked in Wellington, New Zealand, for the past 8 years.  I don't think its fair to say that most work is support.  There was a lot of new development undertaken here in the late 90's.  Its dropped off a bit now (as it has everywhere) and there is now growing interest in integrating existing packages and products rather than solving all problems by cutting brand new code.

As for the comments about unemployment in Australia, and the implication that it would be the same in NZ, its worth pointing out that NZ and Australia have somewhat different labor markets, so it's not necessirly accurate to assume similar unemployment rates just because we're in the same part of the world.

I suspect there may well be unemployed programmers in NZ, although I don't know any personally.  But if you're good at your job, and have marketable skills (C# and Java at the moment), then you've probably got little to fear from unemployment. 

There seems to be good demand at the moment for C#/.NET skills.  Unfortunately, one reason for that demand is employers' insistence on prior experience.  I think they are turning away good programmers, who could easily learn those technologies, in their quest to find people with experience.

Check out www.seek.co.nz to see the kind of positions currently advertised.

>Bad things: A long way from anywhere - measure the distances on your map, even 2000 km from Australia.

I'd second that.  The modern communcations make the world seem smaller until you actually hop on a plane.  Then you realise just how far NZ is from the rest of the world.  E.g. approx 24 hours by 747 to reach the UK.

As for questions about cost of living and salaries.  I'd love to have a clearer understanding of that myself.  But its really hard to make an accurate comparison.  Compared to the US, the government pays a higher share of the costs for things like health care.  So while salaries are definitely lower in NZ, living costs are also lower. 

As for housing prices, have a look at:

http://www.leaders.co.nz/

aKiwi
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Norman:

If your goal is the experience then give Bangalore a shot - it will not be as scenic as NZ/OZ but I guarantee that it will be an interesting experience.

Whichever countries are in your list - visit them all, meet people in the same profession as you are in, talk to people with similar backgrounds...

Cheers...

Prakash S
Sunday, June 06, 2004

aKiwi

> I..if you're good at your job, and have marketable skills (C# and Java at the moment), then you've probably got little to fear from unemployment

That's what business groups and the (conservative) government say in Australia.

Aussie bloke
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Positive news on the NZ job market, hot off the press: http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2932274a28,00.html

John Rusk
Sunday, June 06, 2004

"If your goal is the experience then give Bangalore a shot..."

I'm still single, and I do plan to have a social life. I am looking primarily for life experience, not work experience.  With all the arranged marriages and other cultural differences, India ain't exactly the place to be for a single guy from the West.

T. Norman
Sunday, June 06, 2004

> Positive news on the NZ job market, hot off the press

It's by a recruiter, you dill. Exactly how accurate or unbiased do you think that will be? There are plenty of those reports in Australia too.

Do you not understand how these people try to manipulate markets?

Bridge climber
Sunday, June 06, 2004

Hi all,

Just a few comments from a Kiwi.

There have been some comments that jobs in NZ are dull and boring.  That may be the case sometimes, but its that way every where, right?  Personally I'm working for a company that has provided computer graphics to many of the bigger TV broadcasters in the world (BBC, ABC, ESPN to name a few).  The common reaction we get is "Wow, you guys are amazing". 

Many of NZs best and brightest head overseas to work, it's a well known problem.  Is it better wages and job opportunities?  Partly, but also we just like to travel.

Style of living? I live 10 minutes drive from work (which is in the centre of the city), on the beach in a four bedroom house.  It cost me approx 1.5 years salary - I'll have it paid off in 6 years total.  Anybody want to compare that with the cost of living in, say, New York or L.A?

My advice?  Look for a company in NZ or Australia (they're not that bad a bunch) that you want to work for, and get in touch with them.  For some reason many employers here are impressed by American qualifications.  You won't win on the exchange rate, but if you're looking for life style, we've got it in buckets.

I can't guarantee you'll find work here, but if you're good enough at what you do, surely you can find work anywhere?

Finally a few parochial (sp?) thoughts.

- Our cops don't carry guns, they don't need them.
- There's no part of my city that I'd feel uncomfortable walking through, on my own, at night.
- Our games of football are about 90 minutes long, and only take that long to watch on TV - they don't stop for commercial breaks.
- Most of my friends from University that've gone overseas have great jobs as leaders in their fields.  Why?  I guess we're just good at what we do.
- Long trips on planes?  Suck it up and read a book ;)
- As for NZers and Aussies being different?  Although we're loath to admit it, we're pretty much the same.  The only difference is the quality of the ships we emmigrated on (sorry, couldn't resist a dig ;) )

G Sealy
Monday, June 07, 2004

G Sealy, you're a good example of why people think Nyu Zullanders are simple.

By the way, cops in Australia certainly carry guns. And they need them.

Bridge climber
Monday, June 07, 2004

First off, I'd like to apologise for "stay away yank"s comments, I guess that ignorant bigotry can exist any where.  By the way, try using capital letters at the start of sentences, otherwise people may not give your opinions much notice.

While I certainly don't agree with current US policy, I'm not going to slag Americans in general, I know too many nice ones (as I also know some nice Iraqis).  And as someone who was sitting on an aircraft at Detroit Airport, 9.00am on 9/11/2001 I guess I can understand some of the US's agression - even if I think it's misdirected. 

And to "Bridge Climber", if simple means trusting your neighbours, your children's friends and the people you pass on the street, then call me simple.  Otherwise, if simple means a PhD, academic respect, commercial success, a job that lets you travel the world, or designing and writing software that's considered world beating, then I guess I'm guilty of that too.

Come to New Zealand, I'll buy you a beer and we can talk about it.

G Sealy
Monday, June 07, 2004

What would they call KiwiFruit if they get angry on NZ?
FreedomFruit?
FreeKiwi?

moronica
Monday, June 07, 2004

G Sealy, simple means interpreting talk about labour markets as a need for gushing travelogues. Then it means expecting the casual dropping of a PhD to be an argument clincher.

Bridge climber
Monday, June 07, 2004

New Zealand is a beautiful country. Shame it's full of chippy arseholes like "stay away yank". Australia would be a much better bet. You'll find people a lot more accepting of cultural differences. Currently my small team consists of: an American, an Indian, two Greeks, an Italian, a Pom, a Kiwi, a Vietnamese, a Moroccan... all considered Aussies, and you would be too. The job market's better as well - with your background you'd walk into a great job in Sydney, Melbourne or Brisbane. Take your pick.


Monday, June 07, 2004

My, my.  I wonder what you'd do if your favourite biscuit stopped being made by its manufacturer?

Simon Lucy
Monday, June 07, 2004

seems a little irrelevant, but no more than the rest of this thread...

www.cookietime.co.nz

'nother kiwi
Monday, June 07, 2004

News flash: If I'm in New Zealand nobody would know I have any connection with America. I have family scattered across about 10 countries (none in Oz or NZ though).  Most of my childhood was spent outside America, so I don't have an American accent.  I grew up in Commonwealth countries where football is football, not "soccer", and cricket is played.  I know who are Brian Lara, Shane Warne, and Ajay Jadeja. I think I would fit in much easier than a typical American.

T. Norman
Monday, June 07, 2004

hhhmmm, its a hard one. But  AF quoted Colin Powel. Which suggests there are two intellectual planes here. The grammer of Stay Away Yank is aweful, but the other dude AF is somewhat reasonable (content is debatable). I wont place my bets this time.
I don't think poor Joel is going to monitor each posting for political comments. Unless someone can come with an automated filter. A thought worth looking into.

Jade Pearl
Monday, June 07, 2004

I'd still suggest you gp for India - for a few months at least! You'll either hate it or love it but I'd treat it as a good way for a working holiday. And ignore the pre-adolescent anti-Americanism of the author of some posts here. He probably doesn't even come from New Zealand.

Most people the world over are quite capable of distinguishing between disapproval of the actions of a government and the correct attitude to take towards that country's citizens.

Stephen Jones
Monday, June 07, 2004

> Meanwhile this forum is going to hell in a handbasket. Joel, if by any chance you're listening, please ban political comments from this SOFTWARE forum.

Dear other blank, the sole thing that makes JOS worthwhile is the intelligent comment on relevant techno-politics.


Monday, June 07, 2004

You really shouldn't be surprised to see the US being vilified here and elsewhere. News stories like http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/low/world/middle_east/3783869.stm are hardly likely to make people love you, you know.


Monday, June 07, 2004

"I grew up in Commonwealth countries where football is football, not "soccer", and cricket is played. "

Hey!  We do to have cricket in the U.S.!

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/03/nyregion/03cricket.html

Jim Rankin
Monday, June 07, 2004

"New Zealand doesn't even have its own air force anymore. It couldn't afford it, so sold all its Skyhawk jets."

...

"25% of us believe that america is currently the biggest threat to world peace."

Maybe you New Zealanders sold off that air force a little too soon, what with crazy Americans running around invading countries and all...

Jim Rankin
Monday, June 07, 2004

I'd like to apologise to everyone.  If some of my comments have been responsible for kicking off a hate-fest, then I'm deeply sorry.  I only intended to show off my pride for the country I live in.

To try and restate what I wanted to say to T. Norman in the first place...

- It's hard to say that moving to NZ will be a good career move.  The market is obviously far smaller than the US and the exchange rate is a bummer.  However please don't believe that there is no worthwhile employment, it's just harder to find.

- Living in NZ is more of a lifestyle choice than anything.  I've travelled a bit and have never found anywhere I'd rather live.  That's purely a personal opinion, obviously.

- As far as I know, immigration to NZ for someone with your experience should be significantly easier than trying to get into the US.

- As for a "sweet spot", I think that you'd find that it's quite possible to live comfortably in NZ, you just need to accept that if you return to the US your savings will effectively be halved.

G Sealy
Monday, June 07, 2004

T Norman

I'm a Pom (ie person from England) who's lived in NZ for nearly 20 years, firstly in Wellington, and for the past 4

years in Auckland. As a place to live, I find Auckland in particular a very pleasant place to live and bring up a

family. From a work point of view, you can certainly make a living in IT, although you are unlikely to get rich

doing so. I haven't looked for work in a while, but I would guess that $100k (NZ) would be considered a high

salary, with most jobs in the 40k - 90k range -  take a look on some of the job sites - eg

http://www.seek.co.nz
http://www.nzjobs.co.nz

These should have links to individual agency sites as well. The market is small, and to my perception quite

fad-driven, and you are unlikely to find exciting cutting-edge projects to work on, although these do exist in

small niches. I've stayed here because I find it a very pleasant place to live, rather than because the work

environment is particularly exciting. I've not looked for work in a while, but an agent called me up the other

week, and said that .Net & Java skills were currently in demand. Work tends not to be outsourced so much as

relocated to Sydney - I've been made redundant three times (with an option to move to Australia in one case),

but have found a new job pretty easily in each case. The local computer comic, such as it is, will give you

some idea of the scene here:

http://www.computerworld.co.nz

As regards cost of living:

Import duties were enormous when I moved here, but have been pretty much done away with. Most cars are Japanese - check out their web sites for new car prices - eg

http://www.honda.co.nz
http://www.toyota.co.nz

The main paper in Auckland, the NZ Herald, has a web site at:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz

This has news articles and classified ads for a variety of things including accommodation. We own our own

house, but rented a 3 bedroom house in Auckland when we moved up - at that time the market rate was around

$450 (in Epsom, one of the more expensive suburbs). Prices have no doubt gone up a lot since then. One of

the biggest rental agents is Crockers:

http://www.crockers.co.nz

In Auckland, the biggest real estate agent is probably Barfoot & Thompson:

http://www.barfoot.co.nz

Elswhere, Harcourts are probably bigger:

http://www.harcourts.co.nz

For new electrical goods, prices are pretty much identical at all stores - check out:

http://www.noelleeming.co.nz


For the cost of a wide range of second-hand goods, see the Trade & Exchange magazine:

http://www.trade-exchange.co.nz

For cost of food etc, you could register as an online shopper at one of the big supermarkets, and browse:

http://www.foodtown.co.nz

Top tax rate is 36%, but this kicks in quite early - somewhere above 30k.

Ignore the rantings of juvenile wankers such as "stay away yank". Most New Zealanders are perfectly capable of distinguishing between individual Americans and a government of whose actions they disapprove. Sadly, though, there is certainly some bigotry against foreigners here, as anywhere - in Auckland this is particularly directed against "Asians" (ie anyone who looks vaguely Chinese).

Hope this helps. If you want any more info, feel free to ask.

as
Monday, June 07, 2004

T Norman, you can see from the postings by New Zealanders, that it's as I said at the start, the country's nice to visit or raise sheep. Or maybe retire.


Monday, June 07, 2004

I've been back in Auckland since August last year after 4.5 years in Sydney.

The I.T. market here has always been relatively small compared to that in Sydney, and that is very much a two-sided coin (not as much boom in the boom; not as much bust in the bust). Right now I'm working for a company that does products for the health industry (and we're hiring), but a lot of the companies I saw when I was looking for work (as a Java developer) are focused on mobile development, either PDA or mobile phone.

N.Z. is seen as very much a test market for new(ish) technologies. Whilst the mobile application market isn't as diverse as it may be in Japan, it does seem like more businesses provide mobile-based communications compared to Australia (even though Australia has a 3G network and N.Z doesn't have one yet).

My feeling, and that may be skewed by what I was looking for, is that there is a lot more companies work in product development as opposed to services/consulting. Because of the small size of the economy many companies have a quasi-startup vibe (minus the Aeron chairs :) )

Re: immigration for U.S. citizens. I have three stories I can tell (these may or may not reflect the "general" reality):

1. A friend from the U.S. in his mid 40s is staying with us. His visa is running out in 6 weeks. Despite experience as an I.T. manager with Citibank in Florida and Chicago in the 90s he could only get a job in a call centre (as a phone operator). This may have been because he had not been working (in I.T.) for the previous three years.

2. A former workmate from the U.S. recently left to go to (Auckland) University to study a Phd in Computer Science since regulations had changed to allow him to qualify for a N.Z. student loan. He said that he and his wife were able to immigrate to N.Z. just before either regulations changed/the number of applicants increased (late 2002). So immigration these days might be tricky.

3. A tester for one of our clients recently immigrated with his wife, they're both from Northern California. So it is possible.


Regarding some of the negatives. First up, I'll point you to a recent editorial I STRONGLY encourage all the N.Z.ers reading this to read: http://www.listener.co.nz/default,2089.sm

New Zealanders do suffer somewhat of a cultural cringe, and I think one of the biggest problems New Zealand faces might just be an overly negative outlook. In some ways people don't know how good they've got it.

Conversely even Auckland can seem like a pretty small town at times (cf. Sydney or Melbourne) - mainly because it's so (geographically) big. You tend to need a car to get around (but they're cheap) and outside of the inner city suburbs most suburbs are pure dormitory suburbs (i.e. not much to do, but go to the video store).

Conclusion: N.Z. is a good place to work, but because the population is small it can take a while to find work (e.g. when I was looking an agent told me: "Be prepared for it to take 2-3 months to find work, you have the right skills and experience, but it's just the nature of the [local] market"). If you can immigrate, great, but my recommendation would be to try to hook something up BEFORE coming here.

I could be working in Sydney or London and I could be earning more money, but I'm happy working where I am right now because I have a lot of belief in who I'm working for and what they're trying to do. Personally, that motivates me more than money.

[Re: Australian IT unemployment for programmers. This has been discussed on http://www.brainbox.com.au/ recently - according to ABS statistics the number of IT jobs in Australia has not fallen (a friend and I concluded that this was perhaps because contracters were dumped into a more generic category); everything I hear about the Sydney market is that it is rebounding.]

Walter Rumsby
Monday, June 07, 2004

I live in New Zealand - it's great. Whilst the salaries aren't as good as the USA, the lifestyle is bloody fantastic and you're money goes a long way. Besides, who wants to be chained to a desk slaving away for some big faceless corporate that doesn't give a stuff about anything other than meeting their quarterly revenue targets and only gives their staff 2 weeks annual leave? Not Me.

For those people who've said "go to Australia - it's better" - are you sure about that? AFAIK, the job market in Australia is also going through a rough patch. A few friends who were contracting in Sydney were had to consider permanent positions, such was the state of the IT job market there. And these were people who had years of experience contracting in Australia and the UK. Add to that, I've heard that Melbourne isn't much better right now.

If you've got EJB skills or .Net then consider a move to either Wellington or Auckland. Christchurch is more likely to be suited for hardware weenies but there is software development work around. You just can't affort to be as selective there.

As for cars - they're cheap.  Take a look at http://www.autopoint.co.nz to get an idea of prices. You'll be well catered for if you like 4WDs - they're a dime a dozen and relatively affordable. As they say, one countries used-car castoff could be a wet-dream for drivers of another country.

One thing you'll notice if you decided to move here is "Tall Poppy" syndrome. Successful people in this country tend to be regarded with suspicion rather than respect.

Anyway, if you like wine, skiing, or cheap cars you'll be well catered for. Sod the work I say!!  :-)

Anon
Monday, June 07, 2004

I'm not so sure about the Tall Poppy syndrome - I know people here talk about it, but it seems to me that New Zealanders are only too keen to hail anyone with even a minor talent as "world class" or "internationally acclaimed. Although it is true that people are suspicious of assorted business people who have made themselves enormously rich by the creative use of the tax system.

Anyway, T Norman, why not come for a holiday and check it our for yourself? Check out Australia too, and compare for yourself. It's a great place too, although the idea that Australians are more accepting of cultural differences than New Zealanders strikes me as somewhat eccentric.

as
Monday, June 07, 2004

"Be prepared for it to take 2-3 months to find work..."

2-3 months is considered a *long* time to find work?  6-9 months is quite typical for finding an IT job in the US.

T. Norman
Monday, June 07, 2004

unemployment in new zealand is at approx 4-5% IIRC

its an economy that is quietly doing extraordinarily well IMO.

FullNameRequired
Monday, June 07, 2004

If I'm going to leave the US, I want to deliberately avoid places that are very big with many people.  So no Australia or India.  NZ seems to be within the right range of not too big, not too small.

Also, I'd want to spend much of my time exploring the outdoors, but Australia has way too many venomous snakes, spiders, crocodiles and other weird predators.  Too easy there for a newcomer to get into trouble with the animals.  I'd prefer to live in NZ and take a guided vacation in Oz, and keep the spontaneous exploring within NZ where the beasts and bugs are less hostile.

T. Norman
Monday, June 07, 2004

As a black man in America I already am not welcome here.  So what bloody difference does it make for me to be in NZ?  Relax yourself.

T. Norman
Monday, June 07, 2004

Just ignore the poor ranting moron, he's probably just forgotten to take his medication. The length of time to get a job will depend on your skills. What sort of work are you looking to do here?

as
Monday, June 07, 2004

Your job, would do, "as". Where do you work?

.
Tuesday, June 08, 2004

http://www.computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/0/889939CB6156EAC0CC256E85007079A6?OpenDocument

"Under the banner Outsource2NewZealand, a delegation of New Zealand software and services companies had a stand at a Gartner outsourcing conference attended by up to 300 representatives of UK and European end-user organisations. It was the climax of a $200,000-plus NZ Trade and Enterprise bid to help New Zealand companies grab a share of the billions UK and Europe will spend on offshore outsourcing this year."

"Rather than attempt to compete with Indian companies on price and scale, Outsource2NewZealand is promoting itself as a clearing house for organisations in the market for “highly innovative or leading edge” development projects."

http://www.outsource2newzealand.com/

--
Thursday, June 10, 2004

I wouldn't be surprised if they end up being price competitive anyway - I know what my friend's stateside company pays for work outsourced to India and it's more than my current salary (then again my pay review is today :)).

Obviously there are other costs on top of the cost per programmer, but I have the impression the differential between what Indian managers earn and what Indian programmers earn is significant.

Walter Rumsby
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Indeed, Indian programmers aren't that cheap at all when total expenses are considered.  The only reason so many companies are rushing to send work there is because India is where the hype is.  If I had to outsource I'd choose somewhere else like Brazil, Romania, or the Caribbean where fewer corporations are going but the quality is higher and the price isn't much more than India. Or even New Zealand, especially for the US where the first hours of the NZ workday overlaps with the morning of the US workday.

And yes, the Indian managers do make a lot relative to the programmers. It is common for a manager two levels above an Indian programmer, who will most likely be non-billable, to earn more than 4X the programmer's salary.  Whereas a manager in a similar position in the US or UK would usually make less than double the salary of their programmers (unless that manager owns the company).

T. Norman
Thursday, June 10, 2004

Oops, the last sentence of the second paragraph should read "overlaps with the last hours of the US workday".

T. Norman
Thursday, June 10, 2004

http://tvnz.co.nz/view/news_politics_story_skin/430314?format=html

"The [New Zealand] government has unveiled plans to increase the use of information and communication technology in communities and businesses."

Walter Rumsby
Friday, June 11, 2004

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