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Where is the Ask Joel forum?

I don't see it. Has it disappeared?

Sathyaish Chakravarthy
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/newyork/


Wednesday, May 12, 2004

And where's Aussie Chick? Her blog has also disappeared.

Sathyaish Chakravarthy
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

But I don't see the link on the main JoS page.

Sathyaish Chakravarthy
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Its the rapture.

hoser
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

That's pretty funny! :)

rapture... hee hee... If you saw the thunder and lightning we're having in NYC right now it'd be even funnier.

I closed down "Ask Joel" for personal reasons. Over the last year I've learned that when I try to write anything much shorter than a full length article, it gets misinterpreted endlessly and starts meaningless flame wars. I literally have not been able to post a single thing in the last couple of weeks without somebody jumping down my throat, usually after misinterpreting something I wrote off the cuff.

Frankly, this saps my motivation.

People always jumped down my throat but it happens a lot less with the long form essays, in which I have an opportunity to fully explain and defend my position. And the trolls and flamers don't have time to bother reading entire articles so they move on to an easier target, like something in slashdot.

So I decided to write fewer quicky-off-the-cuff things and more long-form articles.

Joel Spolsky
Fog Creek Software
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Sorry to see the "Ask Joel" forum go.  I dig the reason, but it will be missed.

Andrew Burton
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

"""the trolls and flamers don't have time to bother reading entire articles """

It ain't easy doin' what I do.


Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Joel,

Might I suggest that you perhaps need to develop a thicker skin? If people leap down your throat at perfectly harmless things that you write, it betrays their lack of wisdom and discernment, not your lack of sensitivity.

By giving people the opportunity to respond inappropriately to your comments, and then see their mistake, you are in effect helping to educate them.

That should make you feel good, not bad.

If you feel the need to laboriously explain and justify every detail of what you write, you are merely falling victim to today's dumbing down of society.

Ian
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Crap.

They win, we loose ... again.  Sux but I understand, sorry to see it go.

Perpetual Newbie II
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

not loose , lose <sigh>.

Perpetual Newbie II
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

I hope this forum doesn't go the same way as Janet's...

http://discuss.fogcreek.com/joelonsoftware/default.asp?cmd=show&ixPost=32168&ixReplies=34

Interaction Architect
Wednesday, May 12, 2004


Joel,

You're my hero.


Seriously though, I appreciate your point of view and often print your articles and leave them on the chairs of other developers around here...

KC

KC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

KC, Jeez you must be annoying to work with!

Former coworker
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Joel,

If people leap down your throat it's more their problem then yours.
I read your site and agree with 99% with what you say.
They are winning and us loosing.

Camilo Telles
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Somehow I can relate to what Joel is saying. If something is sapping you of energy, if it contributes to negative, rather than positive energy, by all means cut it off. We can't be everything to everyone.

I actually believe if a lot of people are pissed off by your opinions or what you write, then you must be on the right track. It's when everyone agrees with you that you should get concerned.

robtwister
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

I vote for return of the forum. If we are coming here every
day then it's obvious that we value the things you say.

VPC
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

---"I literally have not been able to post a single thing in the last couple of weeks without somebody jumping down my throat,"-----

You mean they disagreed with you and dared to express their own opinion? What bounders! Don;'t they know what a forum is for?

Michael was right; some developers don't have any social skills whatsoever.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Actually he's just put up three new posts in the last hour or two.

Presumably he doesn't  like going out in the rain.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Camilo Telles  says, "They are winning and us loosing. "

Loosing eh? Dude, you made my day. Keep them coming ;-)

My energy is badly sapped
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Maybe you can turn the 'Ask Joel' forum into the 'Sathyaish Asks' forum? 

;)

Joe Blandy
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Joel's an idiot. If he wrote halfway decently he wouldn't get flamed so much. All of his arguments are strawmen and he sucks up to M$ all the time.

Under Bridge Dweller
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

'Sathyaish Asks' ... that's a good one :) Sathyaish has some of the more interesting posts ... though some border on the bizarre.

I think this board is starting to achieve some sort of critical mass. The attacks and flames have noticeably gone up. This I think is a good sign, the most loved of all people are also the most reviled. I find it amusing that even Philo (of all people) has gotten his share of the attacks. In the end, it's really just the code that matters.

robtwister
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

That explains why Joel never answers my posts about what kind of day he's having...

[grin]

Seriously Joel - we had a saying in the Navy: "a bitching sailor is a happy sailor;" meaning when they were complaining you knew you were probably heading in the right direction. It was when everything got quiet you had to start worrying...

Philo

Philo
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Let's jump down Joel's  for taking down the forum...

Steve-O
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

I meant, "Joel's Throat"...

Steve-O
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

>>"I closed down "Ask Joel" for personal reasons."

Translation:  everyone is not a fawning sycophant, so I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

This is the typical celebrity wannabe mentality.  Joel wants attention, but only positive attention.  Gawd forbid somebody should criticize him or disagree with the pearls of wisdom that flow from him.

Officer Robert Barone
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

Good for you Joel! People who've quit wtiting Free Software had similar reasons. And they seem saner for it.

Tayssir John Gabbour
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

From my long and ill spent time on the newsgroups, I know that being flamed or ridiculed (even against an anonymous handle like this one) incites a small 'ouch' response. I take things I write a bit personally. You'd have to be a robot in order for it to not have any effect.

And I think people tend to become co-dependent toward more visible board owners. If the board owner doesn't seem to be saying what some people like, they view it as wretched betrayal.

I think the comments about thicker skin bely the fact that this stuff can feel like a continual series of small kicks in the nutsack. After awhile it f*cks with your head, colloquially speaking.

Not a sycophant here but Joel has put up with a lot worse than I would...

Bored Bystander
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

... then terrorism wins :(

genius
Wednesday, May 12, 2004

he(she?) is a sissy!

Dewd looks like a lady
Thursday, May 13, 2004

I think Joel is THE prophet for the 21st century. He's the man!

Me Loves Joel so much
Thursday, May 13, 2004

I've heard somewhere that people who write clear text get read, and people who don't get interpreted.

If Joel feels he gets (mis-) interpreted too much when writing discussion-like posts in the forums, then the only sane thing for him to do is what he did: Focus on writing (long) clear text articles.

Martin A. Bøgelund
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Officer Robert Barone wrote "Translation:  everyone is not a fawning sycophant, so I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

This is the typical celebrity wannabe mentality.  Joel wants attention, but only positive attention."

Translation: I am an attention seeking, bandwagon  jumping attack-junkie who is too lazy and untalented to keep my own forum so I tag up other peoples forums with my own bile and now I'm angry because I can't parasitise Ask Joel anymore.

I see your point, Joel.

insolent serf
Thursday, May 13, 2004

insolent serf wrote:

"Officer Robert Barone wrote "Translation:  everyone is not a fawning sycophant, so I'm gonna take my ball and go home.

This is the typical celebrity wannabe mentality.  Joel wants attention, but only positive attention."

Translation: I am an attention seeking, bandwagon  jumping attack-junkie who is too lazy and untalented to keep my own forum so I tag up other peoples forums with my own bile and now I'm angry because I can't parasitise Ask Joel anymore.

I see your point, Joel. "

Translation: I am a fawning sycophant, ready at a moment's notice to attack anyone who dares to attack my lord and master Joel. Joel is the Alpha and Omega, and anyone who refuses to accept that must be hellspawn that cannot be allowed to engage in blasphemy against my savior.

Full name optional
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Joel,

I must say the article style seems to suit you better.
As for the misrepresentation and throat jumping, that might just be a sign of the size of the current community. I must be time for another reshaping of the landscape.

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, May 13, 2004

With regards to Aussie Chick, I was wondering the same thing. I hope she didn't retreat in a "fear-of-success" state after getting her product to beta level.

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, May 13, 2004

>With regards to Aussie Chick, I was wondering the same thing. I hope she didn't retreat in a "fear-of-success" state after getting her product to beta level.

<DIGRESS>
Yeah, the fear of success, eh! I hear it like an echo on this board. The other day, someone was being told, about his not being able to market his app because he feared success may be. I remember that phrase from there. I think it was Stephen Jones or Ken Klose, one of them.
</DIGRESS>

I was generally worrying if everything's alright with her. I wrote three emails over the last 15 days but no response. Her board went off the hooks for a few days, but alas! it's been reserructed (spelling).

Sathyaish Chakravarthy
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Sorry to see the forum go, Joel. Although if we see more of your articles as a result, well, that can hardly be a bad thing.

Mr Jack
Thursday, May 13, 2004

To be honest, I like the longer articles better.  I think it's a better use of Joel's time to write those than to worry about having to parry blows from people attacking, or to have to worry about sycophants sucking up to him.  I've printed out several of the articles to go back to from time to time, but very few of the forum posts (not just Joel's - anyone's) are worth keeping.  (It is a bit of a shame, though, that it is so hard to find old postings.  They are still there, even if you can't see them, unless they got truly deleted.  Usually they just drop off the page.)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to more articles.

anon
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Of course, the truly sad thing is that "Ask Joel" was an attempt to get some quality back to these boards.

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Heh. Joel sees classroom full of kids squabbling. Finally, frustrated, he wades in, saying "alright you kids, I'll straighten this out"

Ten minutes later he's seen running from the room followed by a hail of pencils, erasers, and rotten fruit. ("Why does someone always bring rotten fruit to a speech?")

Philo

Philo
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Philo, my gosh you are hirliarious man, NOT!

[disclaimer: I don't work for Microsoft, Philo does]

Jason
Thursday, May 13, 2004

> Philo, my gosh you are hirliarious man, NOT!

Jason,

Nice example!

Ian H.

Ian H.
Thursday, May 13, 2004

Joel's writings are gems. Weblogs like his are sadly very rare therefore a continuation of the great work he has put into it is absolutely wonderful. If the Ask Joel forum is ditched in favour of more articles I'd love to see this happen.

Peter Monsson
Thursday, May 13, 2004

"Joel's writings are gems. "

No kidding eh? I have printed all his articles and have glued it to my bedroom walls. I have his picture taped to my bathroom mirror.

I am lovin' it.

Me Loves Joel so much
Friday, May 14, 2004

Ian, what? you work for Microsoft too?

Jason
Friday, May 14, 2004

>With regards to Aussie Chick, I was wondering the same thing. I hope she didn't retreat in a "fear-of-success" state after getting her product to beta level.

Yes, I am around, and check the board a little bit. I just feel like the board has been horrible. So manner posts disintegrate into flame wars and it disgusts me. It would be a much nicer board if everyone just ignored topics they didn't like, rather then posts rant after rant about why the poster shouldn't have posted them.

My product got to beta, and I have done nothing since. This is not fear of success, but fear of getting evicted. I am very busy with university, trying to earn a bit of money, and trying to figure out what I want to do for the rest of my life (oh an very busy knitting a scarf...who would have thought I would turn to something as girly as that). Actually I am about to start a 18month teaching degree. Yes this chicky figure out what she most loves to do. And it is learning. I love to learn, so I figure I will quickly get a teaching degree, get a job, earn some money, and then spend the rest of my life doing lots of fun degrees (ie engineering, physics, mathematics...yes I am a sick child) probably end up a very funky lecturer at university.

My program.....I will get back to it. I want to I enjoyed writing it.


Gosh, I think this sounds like a blog.
Sorry!!!
Don't flame me.

Aussie Chick
Friday, May 14, 2004

""Joel's writings are gems. "

No kidding eh? I have printed all his articles and have glued it to my bedroom walls. I have his picture taped to my bathroom mirror.

I am lovin' it."

You are exactly the second reason why I believe Joel should stick to the weblog. Your halfwitted sarcastic comment is neither funny nor is it in any way promoting the spirit of the community in here. It's amazing that people today can't stand others apreciating the work one does.

"So manner posts disintegrate into flame wars and it disgusts me."

I'm ready to face it: The forum has reached far beyond the critical mass. Stupid sarcastic comments make it up for 50% of all posts and the forum is dying because of it. There has to be some kind of moderation ot get this boat afloat again.

Peter Monsson
Friday, May 14, 2004

Jason

> Ian, what? you work for Microsoft too?

No. I don’t think I even get an interview :-(

I thought your response to Philo's post was a humorous, tongue in cheek example of an antagonistic response people have been describing in this thread.

Ian

Ian H.
Friday, May 14, 2004

"Gosh, I think this sounds like a blog."

Are you planning to take it up again, your blog I mean, or should we all just retire it from our aggregators?

Just me (Sir to you)
Friday, May 14, 2004

Peter,

Send your resume to JOS. Perhaps, Joel, THE GREAT,  himself would consider you as a pro bono moderator. Who knows? take your chances dude!

Jason
Friday, May 14, 2004

Forgot to mention that:

[Disclaimer: I don't work for Microsoft, Philo does]

Jason
Friday, May 14, 2004

No thanks, I've got better things to do than to look after you.

Peter Monsson
Friday, May 14, 2004

Like visiting this forum ever 2 minutes? give me a break Peter. Your are tense, you need a looooooooooooong vacation.

Jason
Friday, May 14, 2004

>Are you planning to take it up again, your blog I mean, or should we all just retire it from our aggregators?

Yes, I will start today.

Aussie Chick
Friday, May 14, 2004

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