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U.S. Is Losing Its Dominance in the Sciences

A very interesting article in the New York Times today.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/03/science/03RESE.html?hp

(It's free to register. Unfortunately you do have to be registered to access the story.)

njb
Monday, May 03, 2004

You're in the business of copy and pasting news from sources to here?

Jason
Monday, May 03, 2004

Are you the discussion forum police? Am I under arrest? If you're not interested don't read it. I think those who are interested will see the relevance without me pointing it out.

njb
Monday, May 03, 2004

Those who were interested in it probably already read it on Slashdot...


Monday, May 03, 2004

I don't read slashdot. Are you a little cranky today? Maybe you should take a nap. I actually think this is a very interesting article and was posting the link to share with others. If nobody is/was interested, or had already discussed it ad nauseum on slashdot then the thread would die a natural death and that would be the end of it. Forum fascist!

njb
Monday, May 03, 2004

Slashdot? Oh yes, that one web site that was interesting in 1996.

Bob
Monday, May 03, 2004

http://www.bugmenot.com to get a readymade login for nytimes.com

looks like the site was created for that lol.

botluck
Monday, May 03, 2004

Like njb said, if you're not interested, then don't read it. Cut the guy some slack, he's not bothering anybody. I mean, really man, WTF?!

Alan Scott
Monday, May 03, 2004

Sometimes it's interesting to get JOS opionions on Slashdot articles.  However, since Godwin's law is more or less invoked here, move on, nothing to see.

Lee
Monday, May 03, 2004

The point is that njb simply pasted a link to a story, without noting any reason the story has interest for JOS readers.

Mr me
Monday, May 03, 2004

So I guess the thread title "U.S. Is Losing Its Dominance in the Sciences" wasn't enough of a clue for you?

WaveRider
Monday, May 03, 2004

For an on-topic opinion: I think we'll see this trend slow, if not reverse entirely, once the current embarassment of a president is ousted.

Mike Swieton
Monday, May 03, 2004

"I don't read slashdot"

Dude, I don't give a flying f*** whether you read slashdot or not. This fourm is not intended for this types of purposes.

We know where to look for latest news.

Jason
Monday, May 03, 2004

No, the thread title is not sufficient guide to njb's reason for drawing attention to the article, nor indication of potentially interesting comment. I see ten stories like that every day and could tell you what nine of them will say before reading them.

njb, what do you find interesting about that article?

Mr me
Monday, May 03, 2004

(O-o-Hm, bugmenot.com is da bomb!-o-O)

> I think those who are interested will see the relevance without me pointing it out.

Interesting article. Science and technology are slammed and derided and so smart people stay out of those fields if they want to make a living as opposed to starve and die of stress at an early age. And so this has cultural-wide implications.

What I find fascinating is that we are laying out future wars to be fought on technological superiority. Without brilliant people to create new measures and even more important, countermeasures, it's open season on us. It seems clear to me that NOT losing our edge is a matter of national security and of utmost importance, as long as we plan on being the big guy to beat.

Dennis Atkins
Monday, May 03, 2004

"(It's free to register. Unfortunately you do have to be registered to access the story.)"

Is their anyone left on the planet that does not know that you have to register to read NYT articles?

Mike
Monday, May 03, 2004

There must be, or they wouldn't keep asking people to register.

Kalani
Monday, May 03, 2004

> U.S. Is Losing Its Dominance in the Sciences

Bull sh*t.

If anything, the rest of the world isn't catching up fast enough. And not just scientific maturity, theological maturity could use some work too.

Li-fan Chen
Monday, May 03, 2004

"(It's free to register. Unfortunately you do have to be registered to access the story.)"

No kidding eh?

Dude looks like a lady
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Remind me again. What the f!@# is the relevance?

njb, what are you smoking dude?

Dude looks like a lady
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

He's saying more foreigners are going back home after getting their degrees in the U.S., instead of staying here and taking our jobs.

Melvin J. Troll
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

The stinky filth! Glad they're going back to Ireland!

John Swift
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

They pay huge tution fee to do whatever and whereever the fuck they wanna be.

It ain't such fucking big deal if you ask me.

Dude looks like a lady
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

>"(It's free to register. Unfortunately you do have to be >registered to access the story.)"

>Is their anyone left on the planet that does not know that >you have to register to read NYT articles?

Actually, I always thought it cost money to register (possibly didn't read login page properly just shut it down whenever I saw it!!), so I actually found this comment helpful.

Anyway, Wow, how many JoSers are shaking there heads. What happened to the days when dogdy posts were just ignored, instead this post is so full of trash it is not funny.

Sad things is that I find this an interesting topic. My first reaction is 'who says the US ever really had much dominance?' I mean really, the length of dominance the US may claim is hardly comparable to alot of the European cultures is it?

I haven't read the article yet, but I will. Still I am a bit skeptical that about whether the US ever really had a long term dominance.

Aussie Chick
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

I have read the article, and I still don't know what the US is really going on about. The US held a twenty year dominance in the sciences, at least that is the entire length of time cited by the article.

Please, show me a one hundred year dominance and it may be interesting.

(This is not disregarding the fact that the US has some top facilities and alot of non-US citizens migrate to the US to be able to use them....Einstein would be a very notable immigrant)

Aussie Chick
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

20 yr dominance? Where do you get that???

Car, light bulb, phonograph, AC moter, AC generator, flourescent light, radio, stealth plane, stealth sub, icbm, nuclear bomb, airplane, spaceship, integrated circuit, transistor.

Come again that the US has been contributing only since 1984??????

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Tag on a 'partner='-tag on the the NYT-links so we don't have to register!

Jonas B.
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Dennis,

You forgot TV, video games, and personal computers!

But before we get too jingoist, I'll always remember what JFK (supposedly) said about the Russians during the race to space  - "Our German scientists are way better than their German scientists."  I'll leave that open to interpretation.

yet another anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

>Come again that the US has been contributing only since 1984??????

Hey, I never said the US hadn't been contributing, I questioned the US dominance, and the fact that the article could cite only dominace for the last twenty years.

You have listed alot of nice (well some not so nice) things, however a list of things is not statistical evidence.

The article did use statistical evidence, however it would only show evidence for the previous twenty years.

If I were to guess what the data for the last fifty years was like, based purely on the data seen in the NY Times article, I would guess that the US was dominant for probably twice as long. However I am guessing, and I don't know all the information, perhaps there were events which caused real changes in the order of things.

My point was that the article was citing twenty years worth of data, and I hardly think citing twenty years worth of dominance is worthy of talking about. My point is that twenty years is hardly a long time.

Aussie Chick
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

The only area in which the U.S. is dominant, is mindless arrogance.


Tuesday, May 04, 2004

My (on topic) comment would be that this is a combination
of several things:

1.  Other countries are figuring out how to do
academic/industrial partnerships - frequently with US-based
companies.  Academic-only research generates papers,
but doesn't contribute all that much to economic growth.

2.  Science is "hot" in several countries nowadays, but
not in the US.  Americans are motivated by money work,
and busting one's butt to get a PhD is only done if there's
a decent prospect of a fat payday, or at least a reasonable
shot at tenure and a good university job.  Since there's
100 PhD's for every tenure-track job or decent research
job, the numbers simply don't work, and spending years
in the "post-doc" doghouse, with its McWages and asshole
profs, isn't what most people want to do after spend ten
years in college.  Americans are making an economically
wise move to avoid the sciences.

This sort of thing _could_ be addressed by a national
"Big Science" effort, like a mission to Mars or a "hydrogen
economy" push.  I'd like to see ag subsidies terminated
and half the money spent on this, and the other half
used for general university research grants.

3.  The US pumped enormous amounts of $$$ into R&D
in the 1980's, much of it defense-related.  We have
somewhat of a lull since Darpa R&D was cut in the early
1990's.  This has been restored recently.

x
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

>Car, light bulb, phonograph, AC moter, AC generator, flourescent >light, radio, stealth plane, stealth sub, icbm, nuclear bomb, airplane, >spaceship, integrated circuit, transistor.

Car - Germany
Radio - Italy
Spaceship - Russia

And you'd be able to argue quite a good bit about some of the others as well.

But Americans did invent the Twinkie.

-tim

a2800276
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Surely there is a difference between inventions and the sciences?

I mean the TV is a very popular invention, however is its popularity a fair indication of value.

Popularity and knowledge of an invention/discovery does not nessecitate a dominance in science.
Even the work of someone as famous as Einstein is incredibly unknown. Most people have heard of E=mc^2, but they couldn't tell you what the equation means, or why the speed of light squared is important in an equation which essential just says 'energy equals mass'.

My point, I am not convinced that popularity or notoreity among the general public parellels with real scientific achievements, again this is a statistical problem, and I really don't have the data to support this one way or the other.

Aussie Chick
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Marconi, who was Italian, was the first person to send a radio signal, but Tesla is considered the inventor of the radio.  Tesla was Croatian, and invented the radio 4 years after immigrating to the US.

yet another anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

"If anything, the rest of the world isn't catching up fast enough. And not just scientific maturity, theological maturity could use some work too."

Are you really suggesting that the US is "theologically mature". Please, that's total BS.

The US is loosing its technical edge, it will loose its lead in space to countries with more pioneering spirit, it's lost its moral lead, it's redefined freedom in the image of it's own belly-button. Bush jnr is Nero.

At least the Brits cashed in their empire for something worth fighting for, not Halliburton, et al.

The US has become the Keystone Cops instead of the world's policeman, raiding the speakeasy and taking all the booze back to the station for the party.

MrGrumbly
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Whilst I think it would be quite within the scope of JoS to discuss the merits or otherwise, and possible alternatives to, requiring registration to read a news article on a website, I don't see what the linked article has to do with JoS.


Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Don't forget, the US invented the internet...Al Gore

apw
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

yet another anon, look at this link -

Marconi was not the first one, there was Bose of India before him

http://www.qsl.net/vu2msy/JCBOSE.htm

Anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Al Gore didn't invent the Internet, but I hear he designed some of the ALGOREithms for it!  Sorry, I couldn't resist the urge for a really bad pun!

GML
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

As Kennedy pointed out the clear dominance of the US started after the end of the Second World War. The increasing rigidity of the Iron Curtain establishments after the late sixties made the dominance even clearer.

The idea of one country being dominant goes against the scientific spirit and the tradition of sharing knowledge anyway.

More worrying is the effect of research tied to private companies and their commercial and political interests. This is a lose-lose game.

If science advances it really doesn't matter too much which country is in the lead; everybody benefits.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, May 04, 2004


Since WWII, America has led the world in technical innovation. The Soviets were close behind us, but most of their innovation was largely based upon technology taken from the US. However, many of the advances in US technology came from people that weren't born here. The Germans that came here before and after WWII were a boon to the tech industry in the US.

If that history offends you, or makes you think I'm just waving Ol' Glory, then tough shit. That's just the way it's been.

Now...Prior to WWII, America hardly held a monopoly on technical innovation. Germany was far ahead of the world in many areas including jet engines and rocketry;two items that figured largely in the post war dominance of America.

Also, radar was invented by the British shortly before WWII.  This is something many people think that Americans invented. They didn't.

Take a look at the world shortly before WWII and you will see a much different picture of technical superiority. No doubt that America was a major player in the sciences, but it would be unfair to say that America was dominant before WWII.

Whatever
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Ok, you all win. The U.S. has lost its domination. So stop immigrating here and taking our jobs.

Melvin J. Troll
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

The fact that immigrents come to the US to do science is some support that the US was a favorable place for science.

It really is not a point of arrogance. The US has a large population and a lot of money.

The US dominance (probably a bad word) was largely the result of WWII which did not devastate the US economy as it did for other countries (like England and Germany).

During WWII, there was a vast build-up of technical industries. Many of these industries continued after the war. Further, the GI bill put many people in school that otherwise would not have gone. To provide places for these people, the public university system was expanded.

The US government, through the 50's, 60's, and 70's, funded a great deal of basic scientific research.  The US had the money to do so. Few other countries did.

Industrial science and engineering were very good careers, stable with good pay. These jobs were well-worth the educational effort to obtain them. Even academic jobs were good careers.

THEN came along "finance" in the 80's. This part of the ecomony was, then, the place to be. Currently, the US economy is focused on making money without really doing anything.  Now, other countries, more than the US, see science and engineering as valuable and high-status.













WW

njkayaker
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Why are ag subsidies always targeted?

The sum total of money spent on Us ag subsidies is a minute fraction of the money we spend sending food to india because they are too poor and technologically backwards to grow enough to feed their own people.

Let's stop THAT ag subsidy first.

Farmer Ted
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> Radio - Italy

I wasn't aware that Nikolai Tesla lived in Italy when he invented te radio, you historical ignoramus.

> Spaceship - Russia

I'm sorry, let me clarify, to be a space ship, you need to GET INTO SPACE. Not low earth orbit - SPACE. If we give this to the Russians, we should give it to teh chinese instead because they had rockets five thousand years ago. But not SPACE going rockets.

> Car - Germany

What exactly is so special about the german contribution of a particular type of engine that supercedes all other contributions?

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> Surely there is a difference between inventions and the sciences?

No problem, how many Nobel prizes went to americans compared to all other countries combined?

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

"What exactly is so special about the german contribution of a particular type of engine that supercedes all other contributions?"

Now who's ignorant? All three popular car engines are German inventions (Otto, Diesel, Wankel), and fellows Daimler & Benz produced the both first useable and the first commercially sold automobiles with combustion engines.

Chris Nahr
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Tesla's work precedes that of Bose:

http://www.teslasociety.com/radio.htm

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> Car - Germany

> What exactly is so special about the german contribution
> of a particular type of engine that supercedes all other
> contributions?

Because Daimler and Benz introduced the basic components of what we would now call a car.

The first working self-propelled vehicle was by Cugnot of France in about 1770 (ie when the US was still a colony). He also had the first accident; he hit a wall.

.
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Ok, but it wasn't the German's - an Austrian made the first working internal combustion engine driven vehicle in 1864:

http://www.innerauto.com/innerauto/text/hist04.html

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> I'm sorry, let me clarify, to be a space ship, you need to
> GET INTO SPACE. Not low earth orbit - SPACE. If we give
> this to the Russians, we should give it to teh chinese
> instead because they had rockets five thousand years
> ago. But not SPACE going rockets.

Depends how you define it. First orbitting spacecraft was
Sputnik (USSR). The first manned flight was by Yuri Gagarin (USSR).  If you're defining it as getting into space, do the Apollo moon rockets count? After all, the moon does orbit the earth.

extra lite
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

'Whatever' said:

>Now...Prior to WWII, America hardly held a monopoly on
>technical innovation. Germany was far ahead of the world
>in many areas including jet engines and rocketry;two
>items that figured largely in the post war dominance of
>America.

http://www.time.com/time/time100/scientist/profile/goddard.html

"When a captured German scientist was asked about the origin of the V-2, he was said to have responded, 'Why don't you ask your own Dr. Goddard? He knows better than any of us.'"

Kalani
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Farmer Ted, for your infoermation India does not import food from the USA

Sumit
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Perhaps the immense number of innumerates like Farmer Ted are the reason the New York Times is worried.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Ah, the benefits of living in a later time zone! Figured it out yet Jason..., Mr. Me? Do you see the relevance of the article to JOS now? To really send you off into a tizzy of anger and self-righteousness, I'll pass along another quote (“gasp! how dare we continue to have a discussion based on the shared experience of reading an external source!”) which draws together some of the popular JOS threads:

from - http://www.ieeeusa.org/forum/POSITIONS/offshoring.html

"IEEE-USA is particularly concerned that offshoring of engineering, computer science and other high tech jobs could eventually weaken America's leadership in technology and innovation, a threat that has serious implications for our national security as well as our economic competitiveness.

Fewer job opportunities and the downward pressures on wages that will occur as more and more scientific and engineering jobs are shifted to lower-cost, overseas locations are also likely to discourage many of America's best and brightest young people from pursuing careers in science and engineering."

[Addendum for Jason and Mr.Me: Why do I think this is interesting? It poses questions such as: Does offshoring really have this effect? If so, should we use protectionist measures to stop it, or would that be putting artificial restraints on the Global Economy? (Which wouldn't be so bad except for the fact that ‘America’, at least on the surface, has always seemed to endorse a free market and therefore doing anything to alter trade patterns at the price of reducing profits, ie – not offshoring as a means to support local talent even though it will cost more, seems more than a little hypocritical.) Discuss. If you are nice you can have apple slices and cookies before nap time.]

njb
Tuesday, May 04, 2004


1893 published schematic of a working radio prototype by Tesla:

http://www.mercury.gr/tesla/marcen.html

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Where do you live and what propaganda channel io you live tho? If not for the food the US taxpayers donate to india, millions would starve. India's own governmetn doesn't give a rat's ass about it's own pepole and it would be a cold day in hell before some rich indian code monkey would donate two cents to help those of the lower classes in the shithole they live in. You guys are pretty stupid if you think the United States hasn't spent hndreds of millions of dollars over the years trying to alleviate suffering and starvation in India, all of which is entirely the fault of the stupid incompetant corrupt indian government and the ignorant, selfish, dysfunctional and destructive blight on human rights called the caste system.

http://www.usaid.gov/in/UsaidInIndia/Act_FoodAid.htm
http://www.usaid.gov/in/UsaidInIndia/Act_FoodDay.htm

NOTE --> "Food from the fields of American farmers and valued at $7.84 billion has been provided to India during the past 50 years."

The USAID-supported Public Law 480 Title II Food Aid  (Title II) program in India is USAID's largest feeding program in the world. Implemented through our partners CARE and Catholic Relief Services (CRS), the program daily reaches more than 7 million mothers and children in 112,000 villages across 22 states.

USAID's Food Aid program addresses food security issues by:


• Developing and implementing models that better target food distribution to vulnerable groups, while enhancing access to food.
• Using food to leverage community participation in other development activities such as health, education, agriculture, and child survival.
• Providing a mechanism for responding to national and international emergency disaster relief efforts, e.g., the Orissa super cyclone (2000) and Gujarat earthquake (2001).

For an update on India’s food security situation, its fight against hunger, and the role of food aid programs, click here.

USAID Food Aid improves Health, Nutrition and Child Survival

Since 1995, USAID’s Food Aid program has emphasized the use of food to link nutrition and basic health service delivery. The U.S.-supplied food provides a nutritious supplement, while serving as a powerful draw for mothers and children to enroll in programs where they can receive basic health services—such as immunization, ante-natal care, nutrition, and health education.

CARE/India, with the support of Title II, is working through the Government of India’s Integrated Child Development Services (ICDS) program in 850 blocks across eight states. CRS/India, supported by Title II food and cash resources, operates through a network of over 2,300 nongovernmental and social service organizations that help vulnerable scheduled caste and scheduled tribe populations not reached by government services.

USAID Food Aid helps Disaster Victims

Title II Food Aid provided to victims of disasters can go a long in mitigating hunger and minimizing human suffering. During fiscal year 2001, USAID provided food aid and cash disaster assistance valued at $19 million to the victims of the earthquake in Gujarat, the floods in West Bengal and Orissa, and the drought in eight states. For more detailed information click here. 

USAID Food Aid improves Education

Using Title II food resources, CRS is promoting the attendance and retention of 266,000 children in primary schools. Most of these children are from scheduled castes and scheduled tribes; 48 percent of which are girls. Title II commodities also support food-
for-work programs. CRS works with local partners to improve educational infrastructure, and encourage out-of-school children to attend condensed bridge programs to prepare them for entry into formal schools.

USAID Food Aid reduces Child Labor

Food Aid, complemented by USAID/India cash grants to CRS, is working to prevent and eliminate child labor in India. More than 56,000 children in Andhra Pradesh, Rajasthan, and Uttar Pradesh will attend school under the program. The food is helping to partially offset the loss of family wages.

USAID Food Aid helps Agriculture

Other CRS food-for-work programs are providing a package of activities related to soil, water, vegetation, and farming practices to over 82,000 resource-poor farmers. Water catchment structures (e.g., ponds) are being revitalized in Rajasthan and Gujarat with the help of Title II food resources that compensate laborers for their rehabilitation work. These activities have a sustainable impact on household food availability and food security for these vulnerable groups of people.

History of Food Aid to India


• In 1951, the first shipment of 2 million tons of wheat from the U.S. arrived in India to alleviate the food crisis caused by floods and a subsequent drought.
• In 1956, the United States and India signed the first U.S. PL480 agreement, valued at $360 million, enabling India to buy needed agricultural commodities.
• Food from the fields of American farmers and valued at $7.84 billion has been provided to India during the past 50 years.
• On average, India now receives about 200,000 Metric Tons of Title II food commodities a year valued at $90 million. 

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

And speaking of ignorant, let's look at Stephen Jones ignorance about basic facts like food aid to india.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> the moon does orbit the earth.

And the earth orbits the sun! You have to leave earth to go to the moon. Sputnik was just a chromed beach ball shot into the upper atmosphere like a cannonball - hardly could be considered a 'spaceship'. Yuri's joy ride was the same - he goes up, then he comes down. Spaceflight was not achived, just a powered fling into the upper atmosphere.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Dennis, India did receive food aid from the USA for a long time, and also in the times of disaster and other calamities, but for the last few years at least India has been growing enough food to feed it's people.
And currently India does not import any food from the USA.
And besides you think feeding 1 billion people,and keeping a country together with 35 different languages, 800 dialects and 10 official religions is not difficult enough?
Sometimes it amazes me that India still is 1 country.
And about the caste system, there is a lot of misconceptions about it, both among westerners and Indians as well, but the original purpose of the caste system was for differentiating duties. There are reservations and affirmative action policies in place currently for that.
Don't forget that India is a very old country, and India and China had close to 55% of the world GDP uptil the 17th century.
I would say it's only a matter of time till India solidly gets back on it's feet after 250+ years of colonial domination

Anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

The US has never endorsed a free market - even agricultural commerce between Arizona and California is heavily regulated. This is just a fad of the globalists, who have to loyalty to or interest in any sovereign government beyond the threat it makes to the globalist megacorporation's plans for world domination by a globalist commerce government that is not elected and is nondemocratic, representing only the desires of the corporate overlords.

Freedom has NOTHING to do with free trade.
Freedem has NOTHING to do with free software.

In both cases, a word with emotional carry has been absconded with and redefined to mean something totally contrary to the original purposes.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Comment on Indian agriculture


http://www.hciottawa.ca/dynamic/agriculture.html

Anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

http://www.frac.org/html/hunger_in_the_us/hunger_index.html

"The Food Research and Action Center (FRAC) is a leading national organization working to improve public policies to eradicate hunger and undernutrition in the United States.

One of the most disturbing and extraordinary aspects of life in this very wealthy country is the persistence of hunger. The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) reports, based on a national U.S. Census Bureau survey of households representative of the U.S. population, that in 2002 11.1 percent of all U.S. households were "food insecure" because of lack of resources. Of the 12.1 million households that were food insecure, 3.8 million suffered from food insecurity that was so severe that USDA's very conservative measure classified them as "hungry.""

.
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

"WASHINGTON, March 30 - The Bush administration, still sparring with Senator John Kerry over the issue of trade, said the practice of exporting work overseas had little to do with the loss of jobs in the United States.

John W. Snow, the Treasury secretary, said in an interview with The Cincinnati Enquirer that the practice of moving American jobs to low-cost countries "is part of trade" and that "there can't be any doubt about the fact that trade makes the economy stronger."

Mr. Snow's comments, published on Tuesday, reflect a growing willingness by the Bush administration to defend global free trade even in hard-hit industrial states like Ohio that have lost tens of thousands of factory jobs and where many voters blame competition from countries like China and India for the loss. Mr. Snow was visiting Ohio to promote the White House's economic policies."

.
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Oxfam:
"US cotton farmers share almost $4bn in government support - roughly $160,000 per head - shielding them from the deepest depression in world prices since the 1930s. These same subsidies deepened the current slump. By encouraging more production for a stagnant market they lowered world prices by a quarter, devastating the livelihoods of West Africa's 11 million cotton farmers in the process. The subsidy cheque delivered to US cotton producers was bigger than the total GDP of countries such as Burkina Faso and Mali. And the world price decline cost West Africa alone some $200m - far more than it gets in US aid and debt relief. "

!
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> Food from the fields of American farmers and valued at $7.84 billion has been provided to India during the past 50 years

> On average, India now receives about 200,000 Metric Tons of Title II food commodities a year valued at $90 million

There are [many] people who say that first world agricultural subsidies mean that the developing world's agriculture isn't competitive: for example, that people cease farming in the developing world, because their produce is more expensive that first world imports, partly because of first world subsidies; and vice versa, that the developing world can't sell its produce in the first world because of the artificially low prices in the first world.

http://www.washtimes.com/business/20031207-114046-8545r.htm ...

  "The United States paid farmers almost $15.7 billion in subsidies during 2002, and the U.S. Agriculture Department projects $18.7 billion for 2003. Subsidies, which rise and fall opposite market prices, peaked in 2000 at $32.3 billion, the USDA said."

So, contradicting Farmer Ted's "The sum total of money spent on Us ag subsidies is a minute fraction of the money we spend sending food to india", it seems that the value of the subsidies is *175 times greater* than the value of aid to India ... and, 40 times greater than the 420 million total that http://www.usaid.gov/our_work/agriculture/2002-title-xii-v15-508-compliant.pdf says was spent by USAID to help agriculture worldwide in 2002.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

So, US companies seem to save enough by gettiing cheap IT/manufacturing labor from overseas that they can pay enough taxes to subsidize the agriculture products that are driving those same third world economies away from agriculture (due to low prices for those products), which forces those workers to.... work in IT/Manufacturing.


Ok, so it's a hasty generalization.

Mr. Analogy
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

I'm 40 years old, and I'm sure I've been reading about the U.S. losing its dominance in science at least since I've been a teenager.

I suppose it might happen sometime, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I think one big sign will be that U.S. students will start going abroad to get a science education better than what they get at American universities. 

As it is, you can draw your own conclusions about the status of U.S. technology, takign note of the huge number of foreign students who come to study science at U.S. universities.

It seems to me like there's something about American culture that encourages inventiveness.  Other countries often take something invented here and become dominant mass marketers of it (e.g., televisions and other electronics), but still seems to me like the U.S. is the source of a disproportionate number of technological innovations.

Herbert Sitz
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> in 2002 11.1 percent of all U.S. households were "food insecure" because of lack of resources


If that food hadn't been sent to india in the first place, Americans wouldn't be starving like they are. We need to feed America first and worry about india later.

Likewise, we need protectionist measures to prevent the export of good US jobs as well as food to India when those jobs would feed starving americans that are in need right now.

Protectionist Joe
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

"I would say it's only a matter of time till India solidly gets back on it's feet after 250+ years of colonial domination"

Oh please.

India has enough resources to churn out nuclear weapons to threaten it's neighbors with, but it won't feed it's own people.

...and this is somehow the fault of it's former colonial powers?

Whatever
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

njb, you've confirmed my initial judgement that you're a moron. My comment about your posting was your lack of context and explanation, not the subject.

Second, the subject of your posting is not directly relevant to the IEEE position you quote.

Third, I'm one of the people who's been discussing the issues in the IEEE posting for the past three years, including on JOS. Don't present it as if it's brand new. Did you just discover it?

Mr me
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> the original purpose of the caste system was for differentiating duties. There are reservations and affirmative action policies in place currently for that.

The purpose of the caste system was to provide a good life to those in power which it continues to do. India has one of the highest rates of illiteracy in the near-developed world. While many of its (upper caste) citizens make millions, millions of its citizens still suffer malnutrition, and even starve to death.

> I would say it's only a matter of time till India solidly gets back on it's feet after 250+ years of colonial domination

Yes, it was all the fault of those rotten British oppressors. Without the British, India would not have learned English and developed an administrative system.

Mr me
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Mr. Me, if the purpose of the caste system orginally was to have a good life for certain people, why would the other people accept it?
Please take a good look at the Indian Vedas and Upanishads before you make these comments.
Indian civilization is more than 5000 years old and Hinduism, is still in existence.
The other religions, etc which existed at that time no longer exist - look at the ancient mesopotamians,mayans, romans, what about their religions, are still around?
India and China are the two oldest continually surviving civilizations ,and Hinduism is the world's oldest surviving religion, so if the caste system was that bad, do you think Hinduism would be surviving today? it would be long gone.

Anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

India was not even one country, and the british came and basically united India. I am not telling it as a fault of colonial rule, but please do some research on how much money was looted out of India by the British, which was way more than anythiing which they put in.

Anon
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

>Third, I'm one of the people who's been >discussing the issues in the IEEE posting for the >past three years, including on JOS. Don't >present it as if it's brand new. Did you just >discover it? "

Have you ever heard of 'inappropriate anger', Mr. Me?

njb
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Mr. Me and njb,

I think you two need to kiss and have hot make-up sex...on the Internet so the rest of us can watch.

Come on people now, smile on your brother...
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> I think you two need to kiss and have hot make-up sex...on the Internet so the rest of us can watch.

Wouldn't work. We're different castes.

Mr me
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

I see, njb, you're a Hindu nationalist and obviously high caste. Are you in the RSS?

Here's some news for you. People in low castes don't have much choice about what they accept. For thousands of years they've been denied access to village wells. Sometimes to temples. They're not allowed to drink from the same taps.

If they dare question it, their daughters or sisters will be chased across the fields and raped, if not killed. Their extended family will be ostracised in the village and deprived of the chance to earn even meagre wages cleaing toilets. That's why they accept it.

At least in the west the wealthy don't get away with pretending it's for everyone's best interests.

Mr me
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Huh? Is he talking to me? I don't recall being involved in the caste discussion...

njb
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Sorry njb. That comment should have been addressed to Anon.

Mr me
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

> Freedom has NOTHING to do with free trade.

Tell that to Milton Friedman.

christopher baus (www.baus.net)
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

"If they dare question it, their daughters or sisters will be chased across the fields and raped, if not killed. Their extended family will be ostracised in the village and deprived of the chance to earn even meagre wages cleaing toilets."

I think the civilized world has nothing to worry about from India once this outsourcing fad is over... that country sounds like a total mess.

Melvin
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Your most hateful comments about my native country are neither helpful nor welcome, Melvin.

Rajesh
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Rajesh,

Actually it was someone else that said that, Melvin just quoted it.

But isn't there some truth to that? National Geographic did a story last year that covered some of the horrible aspects of the caste society. I'm sure not everything in the article was true and I know that the Indian government is fighting the caste system, but it looks like the above quote does have some truth to it.

So rather than be offended by it, perhaps you should accept that it does happen and don't expect the entire world to just pretend that it doesn't.

Whatever
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Is Salad Cream available in India?

rotten British oppressor
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

Sadly, the accounts of caste atrocities are true. Anyone can look them up.

Even worse, two years ago Hindu nationalists massacred 2,000 Muslims in cold blood in Gujarat, on the west coast of India. There are strong indications that people connected to the ruling political party, at least in Gujarat, were involved.


Tuesday, May 04, 2004

in the last year or two US troops have been directly responsible for the killing of approx 7000-10000 Iraqi citizens and around 20000-30000 Afghanistan people.

Think about those numbers for a while, look them up if you dont believe them....I believe Im being fairly conservative.

Then fight your self-righteous instincts before warbling on about evil india you murdering fucking american bastard.

a regular poster
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

How about a few free packets of Salad Cream? That should calm your violent stereotyping nerves.

rotten British oppressor
Tuesday, May 04, 2004

I'm not American. The Iraq War is a different subject and not one I endorse.

Let's return to the subject. In the suburbs of a nation that's supposed to be at peace, mobs of educated young people ran around with knives and cutlasses and hacked 2,000 people to death. Imagine that happening tomorrow in London, Paris or New York.

There are some big problems there.


Wednesday, May 05, 2004

How many African slaves, African-Americans and Native Americans has the United States killed over the course of its history? Has the United States ever formally apologized for slavery and the attempted extermination of Native Americans?

Rajesh
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Dennis,

seeing how your so easily upset by other people's ignorance, e.g. concering the definition of space flight, you should probably take note that the Russians were the first to the moon in 1959.

-tim

a2800276
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Rajesh, previous centuries have been unspeakably bloody and hopefully society is improving. India still has vestiges of that intolerant violent past, in its suburbs in 2004.

In America, university graduates working at modern businesses don't hop in their cars, drive to a neighbourhood and massacre 2,000 members of a minority they dislike. In India they did, Two years ago. Are you denying this happened?

As far as I know, the police still haven't convicted anyone. Couldn't find the perpetrators. Give me a break.


Wednesday, May 05, 2004

The Luna series were cute toys but could hardly be considered spaceships.

Dennis Atkins
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

> he killing of approx 7000-10000 Iraqi citizens and around 20000-30000 Afghanistan people.

I believe your numbers and I'll tell you -- they had it coming to them the terrorist supporting bastards.

Dennis Atkins
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"Rajesh, previous centuries have been unspeakably bloody and hopefully society is improving. "

Nice try, but you never answered any of my questions, "blank". I guess America's bloody history doesn't bother you all that much.

"As far as I know, the police still haven't convicted anyone. Couldn't find the perpetrators. Give me a break. "

Police don't convict anyone, juries do. The police make arrests. I have faith that if and when they find those responsible for the crime, they will bring those individuals to justice. Would you care to help them look for those individuals?

While India has its problems to be sure, perhaps America should engage in less lecturing to the rest of the world and make more of an effort in living up to the ideals it espouses.

Rajesh
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"> he killing of approx 7000-10000 Iraqi citizens and around 20000-30000 Afghanistan people.

I believe your numbers and I'll tell you -- they had it coming to them the terrorist supporting bastards. "

Really, Dennis? You can prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that *each and every one* of those 7000-10000 Iraqi citizens and 20000-30000 Afghans were "terrorist supporting bastards" and therefore deserved to die ? Absolutely *none* of them - including children - were just innocent civilians caught in the line of fire?

Please, Dennis, share with the rest of us your conclusive, irrefutable proof of this assertion of yours.

Rajesh
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

What about the people killed by the American Troops all over the world this century

What about Vitenam.....

Anand
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

What about Saddam Hussien killing 10's of thousands of his country's OWN PEOPLE?

apw
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

And Hussein had the support of the American federal govt. on both sides of the aisle for decades, did he not?

Rajesh
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Indeed, Rumsfeld attended one of Hussein's Christmas parties in Baghdad back in 1983 (19-20th Dec). Presumably planting weapons of mass delusion in the cocktail cabinet...

strange curiosity
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

> I think the civilized world has nothing to worry about

I think that the Nazis showed that there's no correlation between technological and scientific superiority, and kindness or 'morality'.

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

By the size of this thread I'd say Philo had a very fine day...

RP
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Dear Dennis,
                    You really shouldn't take that tinfoil hat off; look what happens to you when they radiation gets to you.

                    $90 million of food aid a year amounts to under 9 cents per Indian per annum.

                      The truth is that the American government has long viewed food aid as a way of allowing its farmers to get access to other markets. It admits as much. Look at how countries facing food shortages are being pressurised to accept GM crops.

                      America gives a minuscule proportion of its GNP in Foreign Aid, and most of that goes the Israeli and Egyptian governments (the latter because under the Camp David agreement the US promised to give the same aid to the 60 million Egyptians it gives to the 3 million Israelis).

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"I think that the Nazis showed that there's no correlation between technological and scientific superiority, and kindness or 'morality'"

So you believe the caste system is "kind and moral", do you? Like Apaartheid? Segregation?

How about moving into the 21st century, Mr. Wells... the civilized world doesn't believe in that anymore.

Melvin
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Most you you yankies would probably need to step off your high horses. The mentality of the governing junta of USA has always been that:

"Those resources are our, they just happen to be somewhere else than in the USA"

Thus they've created a situation such as in the middle-east, where they now are forced to kill of country after country. Killings the magnitude of September 11th has been perpetuated in the middle east by USA.

Or lets look down south america, where official doctrines from the USA in the sixties dictated that they had to stop the process of south american countrys becoming first world countries, "even by force, if needed."

In India, the caste system has long since been ruled illegal. It's now a question of imposing this on the people on the country-side and so forth. Don't tell me you didn't have trouble with mass killings in the US a few years ago. You only need to go about 70 years back in time to find white people hanging black people for no particular reason except having the audacity of being black.

And theological maturity? Comming from a country who spawned the KKK and dare to accuse the common arab of being a hizbola-member and use christian morals to defend changing the constitution and imposing on human rights - that's just fucking sick.

And ofcourse the US has a nack for inventions. How else are people to survive in the free economy where you either work like hell for brands you dont like or starve. Neoliberal agenda rationalises the abuse of men to perpetuate some sort of übermensch, the global companies. Reminds me about Orwell. Sick.

Just my share of what you americans donate to the average hindi person though...

Marc
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

> So you believe the caste system is "kind and moral", do you?  Like Apaartheid? Segregation?

It's difficult to imagine how you inferred that.

Speaking for myself, I've had a little more personal experience with North American and European ghettos than with African and Asian ones.

> How about moving into the 21st century, Mr. Wells... the civilized world doesn't believe in that anymore.

It doesn't believe in kindness and morality, or doesn't believe in Apartheid and Segregation?

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

>>>"I'm 40 years old, and I'm sure I've been reading about the U.S. losing its dominance in science at least since I've been a teenager.

I suppose it might happen sometime, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

I think one big sign will be that U.S. students will start going abroad to get a science education better than what they get at American universities." >>>

Herbert, you might be interested in todays NY Times article entitled: "National Science Panel Warns of Far Too Few New Scientists" Here's a quote (note the last sentence):

"But interest in such careers is falling compared with elsewhere. The 2004 report on indicators says the United States ranks 17th among nations surveyed in the share of its 18-to-24-year-olds who earn natural science and engineering degrees, behind Taiwan and South Korea, Ireland and Italy. In 1975, it was third.

Skilled foreigners have increasingly filled the gap: the board report shows that 38 percent of all the nation's scientists and engineers with doctorates are now foreign born.

But that inward flow is threatened, the board said, because of new limits on the entry of highly educated foreigners into the country and more intense global competition for their skills. Visas granted to students, exchange visitors and highly skilled foreigners dropped from 787,000 in 2001 to 625,000 last year. Visa applications have dropped as well.

At the same time, other countries, especially in Europe and Asia, have realized that science and technology are crucial to economic growth and prosperity and are rapidly catching up to the United States in the pursuit of science excellence. As a result, the numbers of foreigners who once came to the United States to do science are expected to drop."

njb
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Rajesh, not a single person has been convicted over the massacre of 2,000 innocent civilians in suburbs in one of your most properous states in 2002, while JOS was running.

A handful of people were arrested over the Best Bakery massacre since the evidence couldn't be dismissed even by corrupt Gujarati officials. But none were convicted.

Hindu nationalism has a strong following among the upper caste Indians that work for outsourcers.


Wednesday, May 05, 2004

>10000 americans are killed each year by fellow americans.

Thats a higher number her head of population than
was achieved in iraq before the invasion (iraq had the occasional peak, but on average more americans were killed by americans each year than iraqis killed by iraqis), its higher than has ever been achieved in india.
America has been involved in >200 'police actions' and wars in the last 50 years or so.
How many of those do any of the americans in this thread actually know about?

America is a violent country, led by violent men.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004


"America is a violent country, led by violent men. "

Your're right it is. And I for one would be perfectly happy to let the rest of the fucking world take care of it's own fucking problems.

We could have turned Saddams' torture chambers into a Reality TV series and made a profit from the suffering. Fuck 'em.

Bosnia? What the fuck were doing there? Let the religious nuts kill each other. What the fuck do I care?

Saving Kuwait in Gulf War I? Fuck! Let them eat sand and let the Iraqis murder and rape them like they were while they were there. They hate us anyway so fuck them too.

And all of our operations in South America to overthrow those banana republic dictators. Fuck them too. Let them live in the jungle and keep my tax dollars at home.

And don't even get me started about all the fucking money we send overseas to a bunch of assholes. Keep that money at home. Let the world go fuck themselves.
They love our money, but hate us. Fuck them.

And since we're such a shithole of a country, let all the fucking immigrants stay the fuck where they are. Let their fucking governments protect, feed and educate them. I'm sick and tired of paying the way for a bunch of assholes who just want to bomb us into oblivion.

So, yeah, we are a violent country and I'm all in favor of you going to your corner and I'll stay in mine.

Whatever
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Dear Blank,
                  Gujarat is hardly a hive of software development. The massacres there were led by politicians, with the connivance of the state seciurity forces. They were anti-Muslim, not anti-Dalit, so caste doesn't really come into it. Many software developers do support the BJP, but that is because of the widespread perception that its economic policies are on the ball more than becasue of any saffron extremism.

                  Perhaps you could tell us how many convictions there were in the US for the thousands of  lyncihings of blacks in the deep South between 1890 and 1960?

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Dear Whatever,
                        If your predecessors had said "goodbye to the fucking immigrants". then you wouldn't be in the States to say it toi the next wave.

                          As for people wanting to bomb you, have you not noticed that throughout recent history you have been doing most of the bombing. Quite a lot of people were secretly pleased when 9/11 happened because for once you were on the receiving end.

                          Most of the banana republic dictators were set up with the help of the American Marines, and frankly the Iraquis aren't exactly overjoyed at being killed by American and British soldiers at a faster rate than under Saddam , whilst all the "reconstruction money", paid for by the American taxpayer, goes straignt into American contractors pockets without there being any noticeable effect on the infrastructure which your country destroyed in the first place.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"We could have turned Saddams' torture chambers into a Reality TV series and made a profit from the suffering. Fuck 'em."

come on, cut out the BS.  you went in there for the oil, not to help the suffering and _certainly_ not because of the dangerous pile of 'WMD'. 

"Bosnia? What the fuck were doing there? Let the religious nuts kill each other. What the fuck do I care?"

technically america wasn't in there.  the united nations were.

"saving Kuwait in Gulf War I?"


"defending our oil-supplying friends"

"And all of our operations in South America to overthrow those banana republic dictators. "

heh.  theres been stuff all of them. 

"They love our money, but hate us. Fuck them."

nah, not anymore.  the american economy is just about been totally fucked by bush.  these days we just hate you. while still hoping that you repay your monetary debts to japan, china, europe and everyone else to whom you owe money.

bunch of fucking debtors, you could at least use your own money to fuck over other countries, instead of borrowing ours.


"So, yeah, we are a violent country and I'm all in favor of you going to your corner and I'll stay in mine."

the entire world wishes you meant that.  70% of iraqis want to go the fuck home.  get the message.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004


"technically america wasn't in there.  the united nations were"

Wrong. Try again. How about NATO. But who did those fuckers blame for all their problems? NATO? Hell no...it was the US that they blamed for everything that happened after the war. Not the fuckers gunning everyone down.

"the american economy is just about been totally fucked by bush."

Right...An economy the size of America's can be totally fucked in less than 4 years? Even in a fucked up country like France, it took years to plonk their economy in the toilet. It takes time for someone to screw up an economy.

"repay your monetary debts to japan, china, europe and everyone else to whom you owe money."

I'm overjoyed at the debt. Let the rest of the fucking world pay the bills for once. How much money did we pump into that fucking worthless continent Europe after WWII? How about Japan? Glad to see they get to foot the bill for a while, the lazy lil' fuckers. (Europeans that is; Japan is at least a hardworking lot.)

And Stephen, there is no doubt many people were overjoyed at the sight of innocent civilians jumping to their deaths. No doubt at all. I'm sure many of the supposed innocents who deaths you denouce were gleefully happy watching children die on 9/11. So, I don't get to worked up worrying about their deaths just like they don't get to worked up about deaths over here.

Whatever
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"Right...An economy the size of America's can be totally fucked in less than 4 years?"

4 years, 2 wars, tax cuts, massively increased outsourcing, hugely increased spending on armaments, etc etc etc.
oh, and you mad fuckers are running out of oil.  literally.

do you honestly have _any_ idea how fucking expensive all of that is?  read my lips, america has shot its bolt, there is nothing left now except a long, slow slide into obscurity.
The only interest I have in it is whether it will blow the world up in its last ditch attempts to be important, like a kid lashing out in a tantrum.

" Let the rest of the fucking world pay the bills for once. "

the rest of the world has _always_ paid the bills for americas cockups. 

""How much money did we pump into that fucking worthless continent Europe after WWII?"

who gives a fuck, that was 50 years ago.  and even then it was only the bare minimum you had to.


"I'm sure many of the supposed innocents who deaths you denouce were gleefully happy watching children die on 9/11. "

christ, you dangerous mad cunt. there are fanatics on both sides (as you prove) but to lump all those dead afghans and iraqis with the mad pricks who committed and supported that atrocity is just bloody minded and genuinely ignorant.

America has always lived in a state of fear, thats why its so violent.  But, and you may have trouble understanding this, most people in the world genuinely dont give a rats ass whether you live or die....they certainly wouldn't bother to dance on your grave.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"the rest of the world has _always_ paid the bills for americas cockups."

Really? How so? And cockups? You English talk funny.
 
"who gives a fuck, that was 50 years ago.  and even then it was only the bare minimum you had to."

Had to? Why in the world did we have to anything? It's your fucking continent and your fucking government that appeased Hitler in the first place. You clean up the mess.

"christ, you dangerous mad cunt."

Oh now you've gone and hurt my feelings.

Whatever
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"Really? How so? And cockups? You English talk funny."

where the fuck do you think america gets the money it borrows from?

oh, and Im not english.

"It's your fucking continent and your fucking government that appeased Hitler in the first place. You clean up the mess."

but if I _was_ english I would point out that england is not a part of the european continent.  its a separate country you moronic little deviant.

oh...and of course theres the point that you can hardly blame england for hitler, any more than you can blame america for not actually entering the war until it was nearly over.....neither country actually wanted to fight.

"Oh now you've gone and hurt my feelings."

huh, I do apologise.  I must admit I was assuming you were a man...Ill tone it down a bit if you like.
I _was_ brought up not to use the f word in the presense of women.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"but if I _was_ english I would point out that england is not a part of the european continent.  its a separate country you moronic little deviant."

Yes, I'm aware of that. Do you think Cuba is it's own continent, too? How about Madagascar? Is that not part of Africa? England, albeit an island, is still considered part of Europe. I don't even have to call you a moron to note that this is apparently news to you.

"america for not actually entering the war until it was nearly over....."

Hmmm..whatever country your from, you may want to beef up the education system. The war started in 1939. America ended in 1941, but let's say '42 since it was very late in the year. It ended in '45.  So how do you figure our nearly 4 years of involvement in a 7 year war is "very late"?


"huh, I do apologise.  I must admit I was assuming you were a man..."

LOL..And here I was assuming you were an adult.

Whatever
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"oh, and Im not english."

Hey, just to be fair....Your use of the word "cockup" and "bloody" would lead most people to guess you were British.

For those that aren't aware of the word "cockup" it's British slang for a screw-up.

Considering that you used two British slang words, I was also guessing you were English, or at least strongly influenced by Brits.

A Linguist
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Dear Whatever,
                        Technically America didn't enter the war with Germany. Germany declared war on the US, which was a great relief for Roosevelt since he had been wanting to go in for some time, but the large number of German immigrants (many of whom were Nazi sympathisers as evidenced by the fact that the largest Nazi rally outside Germany was held in Maddison Square Gardens in 1939) and the always present isolationist tendencies were preventing him.

                        There is such a tning as living off ones laurels though.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"Hey, just to be fair"


LOL, have you seen any evidence of fairness on either side up until now? 

dont spoil a perfectly good flamefest with fairness....its like suggesting to the american army that they treat their captives well, or to the american law that non-citizen prisoners should also be treated with due process....well meaning, but ultimately pointless and probably going to be laughed at.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"England, albeit an island, is still considered part of Europe."

ahh..Im sorry.  so you consider using geographic terminology in a political debate to be intelligent?

England is politically an entirely different entity...its no more part of the european continent than cuba is a part of the american one.

"America ended in 1941, but let's say '42 since it was very late in the year. It ended in '45."

America entered the way because Germany declared war on it....if america had its way you would _still_ be waiting.


" So how do you figure our nearly 4 years of involvement in a 7 year war is "very late"?"

ummm...you consider that 'early', perhaps?

But actually I agree...given americas desire to avoid the war entirely, it actually got involved "very early".....certainly a lot earlier than it intended.

you big bunch of heroes you.


you still haven't responded to the fact that  more than 10000 americans are killed by fellow americans with guns every year.....so tell me, when do you think america will become civilized enough to join the rest of the civilized nations?

America is a scared country.  Its scared of itself and its scared of the outside world.
America, not China; Russia or North Korea (and certainly not poor old iraq) is the single greatest threat to peace and democracy in the world today.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Mr Jones, Hindu nationalism sees non Hindus, including Muslims and Christians, as inferiors. It is not restricted to violence against lower castes or non castes ( Dalits and adivasis.)

Saffron support (ie. Hindu nationalism) is strong amongst the wealthy Indian diaspora. The diaspora contributes substantial funding to their groups.

In Western countries, even taunts against minority groups will attract legal penalties. Murder is dealt with savagely. You must know that.

On the subject of lynching, there have been several recent cases where Hindu nationalists lynch Dalits or Muslims for killing cows and other "insults" to Hindus.


Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"so tell me, when do you think america will become civilized enough to join the rest of the civilized nations?"

I hope never. We did a dandy job at breaking out of our yoke of European tyranny and we've certainly done OK for ourselves without being under the thumb of fucking Europeans. I for one don't care one whit what the fucking eurotrash thinks. We've seen how good you guys are nation building.

What Europe wants today is a subservient America. They are threatened by our power and feel insecure at their own lack of capabilities.

Whatever
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"We did a dandy job at breaking out of our yoke of European tyranny and we've certainly done OK for ourselves"

european tyranny?  dont you mean english tyranny?

so you consider the fact that every year more than 10000 americans are killed by fellow americans playing with guns to be a virtue?  makes america tough perhaps?

"We've seen how good you guys are nation building."

us guys?  Im not european either.  But however bad europeans are its not possibly to do a worse job than america in iraq.  your 'nation building' has so far killed thousands of iraqis, and you _still_ haven't actually achieved anything useful.
I mean, well done for capturing Saddam and all, but until youve actually stopped killing people I dont think you can claim a victory.

"They are threatened by our power and feel insecure at their own lack of capabilities."

theres a well known dictum that people fear and dislike in others traits that they recognise in themselves.

America is a scared country.  Between 20-30% of americans have spent time in jail, every year more than 10000 americans are killed by americans, the 'war on terror' is being used by the government to curtail and restrict the american citizenry, and to gather information on those same people.
The american government doesn't even trust its own citizens enough to let them on a plane.

Distrust and fear is a disease that leads to war and violence, America is being crushed under the weight of its own insecurities.

a regular poster
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

"America is a scared country"

Scared of what? A bunch of depressed, overly-taxed Brits moping around a crowded, dreary island? Scared of British culture -- whatever that is -- overtaking our free, sunny, bountiful lands? Are we afraid of British boiled-potato fast food restaurants on our every corner? BBC programs filling our TV channels? (Have you made anything since Monty Python?) British consumer goods dominating our shelves? (What do you guys make besides Land Rovers, anyway?)

Help me out here... what is the U.S. afraid of?

Melvin
Wednesday, May 05, 2004

Just read the whole thread.

ROTFLMMFAO!

.
Thursday, May 06, 2004

"Mr Jones, Hindu nationalism sees non Hindus, including Muslims and Christians, as inferiors. It is not restricted to violence against lower castes or non castes ( Dalits and adivasis.)

Saffron support (ie. Hindu nationalism) is strong amongst the wealthy Indian diaspora. The diaspora contributes substantial funding to their groups.

In Western countries, even taunts against minority groups will attract legal penalties. Murder is dealt with savagely. You must know that.

On the subject of lynching, there have been several recent cases where Hindu nationalists lynch Dalits or Muslims for killing cows and other "insults" to Hindus. "


Yes we all know how western countries treat murder...Just go and read your own papers you will come to know how innovative your soldiers have been in Iraq....and how lame excuses your president is giving and your defense ministry is justifying saying that it was done by ppl who had the job outsourced...thank god it was not outsourced to some other country....

Atleast we Indians dont invade other countries when we fear that we will not have oil for the future or turn towards the other side(China) in case of human rights violations because companies from my country get more revenue from there....we are not hypocrites at all....

what justification that you give for the treatment given to Blacks in US for a long time?

A
Thursday, May 06, 2004

We had no justification for the treatment given to Blacks, so we changed it. But India has treated its lower caste the same for 5000 years -- and still the richest of them eats goat dung and lives in filth.

Even the poorest American child has food, clothes, housing, free medical care and a free education. So why can't India do the same?

Melvin
Thursday, May 06, 2004

All of you, please understand that India, as the rest of the world thinks of it now, is a very very new phenomenon. To quote myself quoting someone else, "India is a poor country. Indians are a rich people".  Further, we are as diverse geographically, historically, culturally, economically and politically, as any Mandelbrot Set of the whole wide world. And we would like to remain so. Not one single humungous, homegenous, un-differentiated monolith.

This "Class/Caste" argument/debate/accusation is lame. Distinction and Division of Labour is ingranied in our society. Yes, it is true that such distinction was made primarily on circumstances of birth, as opposed to training, qualifications, employers, which is the situation today. But, keep in mind that even today, one's first teacher is always one's immediate family. So, if ones' father is a sewerage cleaner or a lawyer, the son(s) would also tend to take up their pop's place in the society.

What was and is wrong,  is the _denegration_ of the severage cleaner in favour of the lawyer and *not* their discrimination. One has to know one's job and also know to discriminate it against the rest of society to know one's proper place in it.

Even then, this denigration rot is relatively new and has been/is being rectified. Around 300 years or so. Perhaps even half-a-millenium. This in a continously populated and vibrant geographic region in existence for over 10,000 years, and that too of only internationally accepted recorded history. You get into our social and religious texts, that number is far far higher. I carry the accumulated wealth of so long and so vast an experience that it is really childish to speak of India as an entity only since partition.

Before any of you speaks of India, I would humbly suggest that please look up our history and geography. You would be able to understand better our present. Of course, that is only a humble request.

KayJay
Thursday, May 06, 2004

>Even the poorest American child has food, clothes, housing, free >medical care and a free education. So why can't India do the same?

Well that depends on your take of the discussion above, if Cuba can be considered part of the American continent or not...

a2800276
Thursday, May 06, 2004

KayJay, you're actually serious, aren't you. You illustrate the whole problem.

I'm sorry KayJay, but in the West we believe poor people are entitled to be respected as much as rich people, and they are free to become doctors or anything they like.

> One has to know one's job and also know to discriminate it against the rest of society to know one's proper place in it. ...I carry the accumulated wealth of so long and so vast an experience that it is really childish to speak of India as an entity only since partition.

KayJay, caste Hindus are descended from Aryan invaders. I know the Hindu machinery is busy rewriting history to claim you've always been in India, but that's not what serious history scholars say. You've also rewritten the school textbooks.

Alarming really.


Thursday, May 06, 2004

"Even the poorest American child has food, clothes, housing, free medical care and a free education. So why can't India do the same?"

that is total crap.

is this poster really so ignorant of basic living conditions of the poor in america?


scared and ignorant, thats how americans prefer to live.

talk about alarming.

a regular poster
Thursday, May 06, 2004

Dear Mr. A. Y. Mous,

Yes, I am serious.

You have missed out quoting something I did say and equally serious of, something I consider very important to warrant begining a paragraph with. I shall do so now, to rectify this lacuna.

<quote author="KayJay">
What was and is wrong,  is the _denegration_ of the severage cleaner in favour of the lawyer and *not* their discrimination.
</quote>

You seem to subscribe to the common theory that discriminating something, i.e., explicitly identifying one as different from other, either qualitatively or quantitatively or both, without an emotional or moral or societal undercurrent, is the same thing as playing "holier than thou".

No sir, it is not. Yes, there are different people with different jobs. Yes, anyone can do any job. Yes, anyone is entitled to any job. No, no harm in maintaining a family/social tradition, _*OUT OF CHOICE*_ (Apologies. Cannot make that emphatic enough!).

And no sir, contrary to popular belief no Caste/Class system has ever been *forced* upon others. Else, a member of the so-called "lower caste" and a member of the "minority section" would not be two (successive, to top it) Commanders-In-Chief of the Armed Forces and President of the Republic of India.

Just by saying, "I am not you and I do not want to be" does not mean "I am better than you and you shall lick my boots", which is how the traditional class/caste systems,  (incidentally, right across the world) has been understood as. It is not so.

KayJay
Thursday, May 06, 2004

Oh! I am a _Dravidian_ *AND* and a, how did you put it?, oh! a _caste hindu_. A new term in my vocabulary. Thanks to, er....well... ?

KayJay
Thursday, May 06, 2004

> Had to? Why in the world did we have to anything

The same reason that you did do something - because you would have been next.


Thursday, May 06, 2004

> Help me out here... what is the U.S. afraid of?

A small number of people living in some hills in Afghanistan.


Thursday, May 06, 2004

Now, if only Philo said something about having a good day and this thread would probably explode.

RP
Thursday, May 06, 2004

"a member of the so-called "lower caste" and a member of the "minority section" would not be two (successive, to top it) Commanders-In-Chief of the Armed Forces and President of the Republic of India.
"

just out of interest, does anyone remember the last president america had that was not a millionaire?

a regular poster
Thursday, May 06, 2004

"just out of interest, does anyone remember the last president america had that was not a millionaire? "

Already a millionaire when they entered office, or already a millionaire when they were born?

Spock the Vulcan JockBox
Thursday, May 06, 2004

----" We did a dandy job at breaking out of our yoke of European tyranny and we've certainly done OK for ourselves without being under the thumb of fucking Europeans."-----

Actually, the so called War of Independence was basically a war between France and England, and instead of escaping the yoke of  European tyranny you got your independence because you were supported by the winning side in a war between a constitutional monarchy you were fighting against, and an absolutist monarchy whose side you were on.

Stephen Jones
Thursday, May 06, 2004

BTW, anyone here watch Simon Schama's "History of the British Empire" on BBC World? Sure makes a change to some Text Books I know of.

KayJay
Thursday, May 06, 2004

Oops, sorry! That was "A History of Britan".

KayJay
Thursday, May 06, 2004

"I know the Hindu machinery is busy rewriting history to claim you've always been in India, but that's not what serious history scholars say. You've also rewritten the school textbooks."

Haha. Comming right from the foremost Orwellian state of the world.

Go hang some blacks, kill some gooks, spawn a nefarious religious sect (the kkk took my baby away ey?) and get back to me on that.

Oh.. you already did.


Thursday, May 06, 2004

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