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Knowing you can get even ...Priceless


Amex has been caught getting ready to offshore a lot of jobs but apparently they know that if they tell the folks, those folks can screw the systems.

http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,89943,00.html

It's killing me, it really is.

Priceless
Sunday, February 15, 2004

A German saying goes "Die Geister die ich rief, werd ich nun nimmer los" (= I can't get rid of the deamons, I've called before).
Globalisation cuts both ways (sitting on the other end, in Asia I see it differently). I left Europe, since it felt OLD world...

The US so far has only benefitted from globalization trends. Since everything seeks a balance it was only a question of time until it fires back. On an individual basis it seems unfair, on a global basis it is not only logical but also predictable. India and China have a talent pool together 10 times bigger than the US and the educational systems are catching up fast. Since Multinationals are not responsible for any geographical region, but to their shareholders (who are mostly American (?)), they MUST, following their own rules and market demands, switch to the cheapest provider of service.

The best reaction: what can be done to raise living standards  in Asia until the price advantage is gone?

There is a chaninging world approaching, brace for impact..

NotesSensei
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Dear NotesSensei,

The issue in this post is not about whether it's good or bad. That has been gone over here relentlessly.

The issue is that these corporate jerks have been exposed and realise they're vulnerable. Usually they arrange things so they're not.

The issue is that they're vulnerable, and they're aware of it. Should the victims get even?

Priceless
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Sorry Priceless,

seems, not being a native English speaker , I missed your point. What an excellent question! On one hand revenge for the business dishonesty seems justified and surly would taste sweet. On the other hand, you only would accelerate the move and seed more poison in the workplace. Here we would say:  Create bad Karma. And bad Karma leads to suffering.
The Buddha says: you pick the level of you suffering yourself. So it is you call. From your comment I would conclude, that you are VERY angry on the business guys (what I totally understand and have expericences myself too).  This too is suffering and taking revenge doesn't end it. Ending anger can be achieved by cultivating the mind and developing compassion with the people that made you angry (I wish I could that everytime <g>).
They are caught in the dilemma to keep their shareholders happy and be a good colleague... even if it seems they might not care, they suffer from that pressure.
The interesting thing: you do not need to agree with what they do AND can show compassion. Strange things might happen when you do this.
:-) stw

NotesSensei
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Taking the revenge would be satisfying, but if it ever got linked to your name, you'd never work again.

That said, if there's a bunch of you getting 'shafted', I'd probably think about it.  Too many suspects, no real evidence.

Koz
Sunday, February 15, 2004

"Even"? Doubtful. You screw the company, they go under, you are out of a job. It's not clear how this differs from the alternative, unless your motive is simple pettymindedness.

Insert half smiley here.
Sunday, February 15, 2004

(In capitalist society, company screws YOU!)

Insert half smiley here.
Sunday, February 15, 2004

"In capitalist society, company screws YOU"

Yeah, because providing you with a paycheck for working a measly 40 hours a week is such a fucking burden for you to bear.

I wonder how the North Koreans feel about the absence of capitalism in their labor markets...

I Hate Whiners
Sunday, February 15, 2004

They have a choice.  Earn a dollar a month, or eat a bullet.

Laurel
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Actually, I work 35 hours a week.

And, yes, in capitalist society, company does screw you. They send your job overseas, and you are out on the streets. I believe the various meanings of the word "screw" (v.tr.) encompass this. My point was that anyone who expects anything different is... well...

Thank you for backing up my point :)

Insert half smiley here.
Sunday, February 15, 2004


The company would go under? I think not.

No, you would just get a few smarmy guys on six or seven figure salaries being a bit uncomfortable for a while.

The productive way to handle this would what any real profession would do - use the power to negotiate an acceptable solution.

No wonder the IT work situation is in such dire straits.

Priceless
Sunday, February 15, 2004

I mean no offence and In all seriousness, why fret? Just as we of the lesser God did, why don't you go where the jobs are? Its not as if the jobs are disappearing. Just that jobs are moving from locale A to locale B. We moved from villages to towns to the cities to the metro to the 'el dorados'.  Any problems in you doing the same?

Regards

KayJay

Inidan Developer in India
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Indian immigration rules make it impossible for Americans to move to where the jobs are going. Not to mention that we spoiled Americans are used to little things like reliable power, clean water, due process of law, public officials who aren't blatantly corrupt... little things like that.

Chris Tavares
Sunday, February 15, 2004

It's a very impersonal attitude to expect people to just up and leave their family and friends because some company decides they can save a few bucks if you work in India.

And what if your partner works in some other field that they've decided to outsource to China?

It just doesn't work. You can't expect people in general to be able to follow the work. Even if you remove any immigration factors, the human factors make it not at all practical.

Sum Dum Gai
Sunday, February 15, 2004

"Not to mention that we spoiled Americans are used to little things like reliable power, clean water, due process of law, public officials who aren't blatantly corrupt... little things like that. "

Picky..picky...picky.

Huh?
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Chris,

I do know a couple of Americans on work visa in India.

Prakash S
Sunday, February 15, 2004

Just curious, if an American goes to India on a work visa, what caste does he go into? If it's the lower castes, do they have to bathe in the public sewer or the Ganges or whatever that is? Do they have running water/plumbing and electricity, etc?

Curious
Sunday, February 15, 2004

There is no legal caste system in India.  It's purely social.  There is a social caste system in the U.S. (and pretty much every country with a wide disparity between richest and poorest).

Like any other modern country, your caste is determined primarily by the amount of money you have.  But if you're highly talented (like being extremely wise or a very good violin player), you can travel in higher circles occaisionally.

Richard P
Monday, February 16, 2004

Lads, have you seen CNN headlines this morning: "400 Illegal American Emigrants were Left Dying in the Sea Container"

"...nearly 400 highly skilled American and West European IT professionals and their family members were found inside the sea container by Indian Customs officers during the routine check... Indian officials claim its already third instance during this week alone when illegal working force from outside India, mainly West Europe and North America, has been caught on Indian border..."

"I was desperate to find a job in my country", - says John, 42, Harvard post-graduate, who used to work as a chief-developer for What-time-is-it-dot-com Limited, which went busted two years ago: "Trying to get illegal job in India was only chance I had left!".

:-) That's just a joke, please don't take it seriously. I'm sure that things won't get so far, if we keep innovating, learning and just moving forward.

Vlad Gudim
Monday, February 16, 2004

Folks! You fellas are so hopelessly out of touch with reality! I am not angry. In fact I find it amusing!

Come over for a holiday (or work) and get to know us. Or do what I am doing (at least, trying to do) spend more effort online or TV or books (both fiction and non-fiction) or buy an international edition of a newspaper, just to know who we are and how we are. It helps in clearing up a lot of miconseptions about us.  And it won't be a wasted effort. That much I can assure you.

Regards

KayJay

Inidan Developer in India
Monday, February 16, 2004

“Yeah, because providing you with a paycheck for working a measly 40 hours a week is such a fucking burden for you to bear. … I wonder how the North Koreans feel about the absence of capitalism in their labor markets...”

I can’t say I disagree completely, but the threat of communism and lack of freedom is not the best argument _for_ capitalism.

m
Monday, February 16, 2004

m,

communism isn't threat on its own. It's really good thing, in theory, and some people do believe that capitalism will eventually bring us all to the communist society. Obviously, it won't happen before all the work will be done by machines.

As I said nothing wrong with theory - just implementations like dictatorships and totalitarian societies are really bad.

Moreover I'm really sorry for North Koreans - they can't probably even read this forum or the rest of democratic Internet we have uncensored access to.

I wish North Korean comrades got a life and let their people go.

Vlad Gudim
Monday, February 16, 2004

---"Americans are used to little things like reliable power, clean water, due process of law, public officials who aren't blatantly corrupt... l"----

Tap water is safe to drink in pretty well every Indian city. Water from bore wells is pretty safe as well (though not in Bangla Desh where natural causes mean it is infected with arsenic). The bottled water probably comes from the municipal water supply anyway.

As for reliable power, it is clear that you don't consider Californians to be Americans ( and didn't they have an outage from Toronto through to New York a few weeks back?)

I suppose you could argue that Tamany Hall and the Teamsters were not blatantly corrupt - just discreet about it. Of course one thing you never see in the States is nepotism. I mean could you imagine having the Presidents son get the same job a few years later as happened with Rajiv Ghandhi. I'm sure if he had a brother he would have put him in charge of one of the States and got him to help rig the votes!

Stephen Jones
Monday, February 16, 2004

Stephen,

If you are suggesting that the power grid, corruption and political vote rigging is similiar in India and in the United States then it's clear you have little experience in both countries.

Nobody said the US is perfect, but Tammany Hall hasn't existed for almost 100 years and the Teamster's grip on politicans has been loosened quite a bit. Corruption is a problem in all countries, but India has a far greater amount of corruption than the United States, particularly in the government sectors.

As for power...When the US has a major outage like we had this summer, that makes news. It doesn't even register when power goes off and on in New Delhi. It just comes with the territory in many parts of India, including urban areas.

Huh?
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

Huh ?
With all the power outages in India , these damn Indian programmers are still kicking ass .... man maybe you should have more frequent power outages in the US .. might help you find a job.

Indian Programmer in Indian Company in India
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

"Multinationals are not responsible for any geographical region, but to their shareholders"

Unfortunately, this isn't at all the case.  Companies, for the most part, are not responsible to their shareholders.  They're mostly responsible to the investment middlemen, brokers and mutual fund managers, who are quite far removed from some of the long term goals of the shareholders (goals such as keeping thier jobs).  The reality is that the shareholders and the people who are losing their jobs to outsourcing are often the same people.  It is the diffusion of responsibility that causes the problem.  Essentially, it's a variant of the "Prisoner's Dilemma" game.

anon
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

> With all the power outages in India , these damn Indian programmers are still kicking ass

And still can't get their puntuation right.


Tuesday, February 17, 2004

> With all the power outages in India , these damn Indian programmers are still kicking ass

>>And still can't get their "puntuation" right.

at least they get the spelling right

Indian Programmer in Indian Company in India
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

The problem with people here is that they perform well everything is going good for them - for eg. they can only program when they have electricity and water.  They cannot appreciate anybody who standard of living may be lower than theirs.  When their apple-cart is upset - outsourcing - they said flail their hands and legs and cry foul - instead of working through the adversity.

The people in India have always worked with adversity - and still come out with the upper hand.

Is'nt that something to appreciate and admire - instead of being envious and angry?

KS
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

The backlash against outsourcing isn't, at least in my mind, not necessarily against Indians. It's against stupidity.

Despite the claims that outsourcing to India is cheaper and better quality, most outsourcing experiences end up with crap code that ends up costing more than if they just did it in house, or hired a local contractor instead.

However, instead of honestly looking at all the factors, the idiot managers just look at that one line-item "programmer cost per hour" and ignore the rest. And then to turn around and tell me it's good for me and my country? Blatant stupidity like that offends the engineer in me.

Add to that that, quite honestly, society has lied to me. For the last fifty years, it's been "get a technical education, you'll always have a great career". I've got a BS in Electrical Engineering and an MS in Computer Science. And as a result? My salary is in free fall, clients are trying to lowball me on every bid, and one even took my design (as part of a job bid) and gave it to the lowball scum who got the job and said "here use this design instead of yours".

It all adds up to anger and frustration and that needs to vent somewhere. And when somebody comes up and says "Well, why don't you move to this slum and live on $4 a day like we do"[1] the vent blows.

-Chris

[1] Yes, I know India isn't all slum, but it *is* the home of the largest slum in Asia, and 800 million Indians still live on $1 a day or less.

Chris Tavares
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

It is stupid and foolish on our part to expect an American programmer to work in India. These sort of comments from my Indian friends are unreasonable and absolutely not practical.

I fail to understand one thing, why do Indians all the time have to defend themselves? 

Yes,I must confess and accept, there is poverty,corruption, ...and many such basic problems here in India.

No country is perfect. But problem with us is, we just refuse to accept our weakness, faults and other ills prevailing in our country.

God Knows, when we will look for solutions.....

my views...
Tuesday, February 17, 2004

You call a 35% federal tax rate in the US capitalism?  The communists are welcoming US business because the US is more of a fascist comunist state than Nazi Germany.  The model upon which Red China was built.

Flamer
Monday, February 23, 2004

Personally, in order 10 years of working with Indian programmers I have not seen 1 quality project from these CMM level 5 liars. Smile and say yes.  Name any high quality product from Indian.  The knives beat down by hammers? or the high quality motor cycles?  Let me know when a real quality product is being produced in India.  It is like Hyundai cars from Korea.  They look good on the curb and rattle and smoke down the street.

Flamer
Monday, February 23, 2004

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