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Sanity checking FogBUGZ for Unix

Joel, in http://www.joelonsoftware.com/items/2003/12/22.html, you claim "Debian is very close to impossible, even for geeks." I'm curious, what are you running into? Can you be more specific?

David Merrill
Friday, January 02, 2004

To be more specific.  THE INSTALLER SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!


Look at any lug mailing list and you will see people flailing about with Debian all the time.  Then the pithy Linuxer steps up and has the audacity to suggest Gentoo to them.

Mike
Friday, January 02, 2004

www.libranet.com

Debian w/ a great (and extremely simple) installer.

Almost Anonymous
Friday, January 02, 2004

The installer does suck, but you're a pretty pathetic geek if it's close to impossible to install. I'd have thought the word geek implies a high level of computer knowledge, which should be enough to work out what you need to do to get it installed.

Sum Dum Gai
Friday, January 02, 2004

The target audience for FogBUGZ are software developers, who may not be Unix gurus.

Let's say you want to set up a FogBUGZ server, but can't afford Windows. You decide to use Linux. You've never used Linux before. If you choose Debian you could be in for an installation headache.

Nate Silva
Friday, January 02, 2004

I guess I'm a pathetic geek.

Learnt Unix after spending some time with VMS.  Can't remember the exact version...  it was a sequent symmetry machine.  I was busy writing fortran, didn't really care about the OS. 

Of course when I could afford a PC I installed Slackware.  Stupid floppies.  Switched over to redhat when 4.2 came out.

Could never figure out how to install debian.  Last tried in '99, maybe it's better now.

ted
Friday, January 02, 2004

I've found Debian almost impossible to configure as a development computer (not as a classic server), without committing lots of days to set it up.

Note I'm not talking about installing it (which can be done relatively easely if you have a bit of luck). I mean setting the hardware to your preferences (eg, screen refresh rate, video card, sound card, ...), installing third party software (an O.S is intended to run software, isn't it?) and some other "minor" tasks.

Just try to install JDK by using Sun installer, and watch the interesting core dump when you type "java".

I'm not a Linux guy, but I'm quite used to it and some other UNIX flavours, both in development and deployment environments.

Everyone I know who is using Debian as distribution has wasted tens of hours to make it work properly in order to be able to perform any productive job.


Z
Saturday, January 03, 2004

Nate,

Your scenario doesn't make much sense to me.

If you are a Windows-based software development team with little or no Linux experience, would you really setup a Linux server to run FogBugz ?

1. FogBugz runs on IIS, which runs on Win2K/XP pro, which is much cheaper than a server.

2. A development team _does_ have 'some kind' of up-and-running server, doesn't it ? Whether running Windows or Linux.

3. [somehow corrollary of 2.] You wouldn't start experimenting a new OS by setting up a server-based mission critical application, would you ?

(Yes, bug tracking is a mission critical app for a develoment team. BTW, it's explained here : http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html ).

Serge Wautier
Saturday, January 03, 2004

From a retail price perspective, Windows Server 2003 Web Edition is just about the same price as Windows XP Professional or Windows 2000 Professional (the former one being $399 to the latter two's $299).

In practice, all three can be had for really cheap, and there's some compelling IT reasons to use Windows Server 2003 for things like this. (Obviously, if you already have licenses for the machines for 2K Pro or XP Pro, then it doesn't make much sense to spend the money just to upgrade...)

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Saturday, January 03, 2004

"Everyone I know who is using Debian as distribution has wasted tens of hours to make it work properly in order to be able to perform any productive job."

I think it is some sort of sick Linux red badge or courage to put up with installers that SUCK.  Hell, I found OpenBSD easier to install and configure than Debian.  I'll bet the first thing Bruce Perens has the hackers on the User Linux project do is come up with a sane installer.

Mike
Saturday, January 03, 2004

The irony is that, despite its terrible initial installer, apt-get is actually one of the best package installers available.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Saturday, January 03, 2004

I think you're right about apt-get.  I think that is the carrot on the stick.  I still think to many get the stick before they ever reach the carrot.

Mike
Saturday, January 03, 2004

This was mentioned in the previous thread, but Libranet is an easy way to get Debian installed.

Matt Conrad
Saturday, January 03, 2004

As is Lindows. I also think Lycoris/LX is Debian based. All three offer simplified installs (Lindows has to be the simplest install I've ever seen... "Take over the whole hard drive? You want to set an admin password? Okay, we're done here."

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Sunday, January 04, 2004

I've only ever had one hiccup while trying to install Debian, and I think it was related to an old CD image.  In order to get it to install, I had to switch to a second console and create an obscure symlink on the command line.  Not hard for even an intermediate linux/unix geek, but definitely not something a new user can or should be expected to do.

Other than that problem, I've never encountered any issues with the Debian setup.

Debian is mostly fine
Sunday, January 04, 2004

I must be some kind of ubergeek or something then because the only problem I had installing Debian was setting up isdn.


Wednesday, January 07, 2004

"I'll bet the first thing Bruce Perens has the hackers on the User Linux project do is come up with a sane installer."

I assume this was unintended irony, rather than sacarsm.  You see the Debian installer was originally written by (drum roll)...Bruce Perens (ta da). 

Now where was that thread on people's earlier work being awful?

A cynic writes
Wednesday, January 07, 2004

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