Fog Creek Software
Discussion Board




IBM sends more jobs overseas


"The 947 workers will be informed of the changes in the first half of next year, some by as early as the end of January, and will be asked to train their replacements, who will be workers from overseas. They will have 60 days to find another job within IBM, the report said. "

I'd love nothing more than seeing those 947 workers tell IBM in a single voice to go fuck themselves and train their replacements themselves.


http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/outsourcing/story/0,10801,88222,00.html

Not oursourced
Monday, December 15, 2003

This is great news! Exactly 947 new small businesses will be created! I'm sure roughly 946 of these have sufficient capital to start their own consulting firm, and the other guy is a real dick anyways.

MD
Monday, December 15, 2003

Suddenly the Bush plan for creating new jobs makes so much more sense ... =-)

Alyosha`
Monday, December 15, 2003

Absolutely Alyosha`! After all, Bush didn't say the new jobs would be created *overseas*.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Monday, December 15, 2003

"Suddenly the Bush plan for creating new jobs makes so much more sense"

I'm not going to defend Bush's economic plan, but I've always thought that laying blame  or giving credit to one man - Democrat or Republican - for the state of the US economy is ridiculous.

We've got ~260 million people in the US, so what's that make the workforce - about 100 million? So the actions of one administration have much more of an impact on the economy that those 100 million people? With all due respect, I  don't think so.

Nick
Monday, December 15, 2003

I guess they (the workers) should of thought twice about demanding higher pay.  Oh, I forgot "it's thier right" to demand such things.

apw
Monday, December 15, 2003

"I guess they (the workers) should of thought twice about demanding higher pay.  "

Really, eh? Those bastards! I mean IBM is yielding ever increasing profits and is doing more with less, so clearly those employees should just suck it and engage each other in a race to the bottom. Hell, let's abolish minimum wage while we're at it! No need to artificially limit our competitiveness in whoring down.

In reality this is yet another example of corporate profiteering at all costs-- it isn't about IBM being a profitable, healthy company (they already are), or about being competitive (IBM services and mainframe hardware have massive profit margins), but rather about having a little bit more padding for the executive slush funds).

IBM = Anti-American. Thank you for making vendor choices easier IBM.

Anonymous Cowboy
Monday, December 15, 2003

zzzzz.


Monday, December 15, 2003

It's closer to 32000 jobs lost:

http://jrobb.mindplex.org/2003/12/15.html#a3934

 
Monday, December 15, 2003

a) They're given the opportunity to find other jobs in IBM, which is one of the few big tech firms that is actually hiring right now. There are 300K people in the company working on umpteen disparate areas - there is hope for many of them (though they might have to move).

b) Sadly, they had it coming - all of the programmers are from IBM's Global Services division (consulting), meaning that the customize and build applications on top of IBM's software. These are not product development jobs, they are what Joel calls "building your company's accounts payable application" jobs. There are many parts of these projects that are reusable or that don't require customer input; hey are necessary, but... frankly, I'm sure some guy in India can handle it.

Bottom line: IBM software developers who are making core products or new/innovative things are working here (or in Europe). American tech firms are just following the lead of every other industry in the history of the world. Yes, it sucks - but it is not really avoidable.

following the pack
Monday, December 15, 2003

Actually, Nick, I agree with you.  I just can't pass up an opportunity make a pointed barb at the current administration, even though it may be specious.  The GOP propoganda machine runs on just as spurious post-hoc-ergo-propter-hoc sound bites (e.g., the Bush tax cuts caused the phenomenal 7% growth in Q3 of this year).

I don't credit Clinton with the longest run of American prosperity underneath his administration (though this fact is a nice counter for those who thought his policies would ruin the US).  I don't blame Bush for the recession.  It was going to happen anyway, boom-bust business cycles being what they are.

I *DO* blame Bush for running ruinous budget deficits in a vain attempt to buy himself out of a recession.  He's a tax-cut-and-spend profligate all the way.

Anyway, we now return you to your normally scheduled software discussions, now already in process.

Alyosha`
Monday, December 15, 2003

Yeah, I totally agree, lets abolish the minimum wage.

I personally think it is one of the greatest abominations ever to grace this earth.

Tapiwa
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

While we are at it. If some of the less libertarian members of this board concede that govt does not drive the economy, why have them in the first place.

A bit like having an automated food cooking system and then hiring someone who purports to be a Michelin rated chef.

Tapiwa
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

"...doing more with less..."

hmmmm, sounds fairly efficient to me.  I'm sure along with myself, some of you are IBM shareholders. 

It's managements responsibility to run as tight of a ship as possible.  If that means getting rid some people or finding the same (or better) productivity for a cheaper price, so be it.  It is also the employees responsibility to be as productive as possible, after all they are getting paid for what they do.

Ultimately the management reports to the shareholders.  Yesterday's news made me $5700.  I think I'm gonna go buy a nice big plasma TV.

apw
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

Yep, and long-term consequences of short-sighted policies be damned. To hell with our tax base, who the hell needs a middle-class? Let American just become a nation of haves and Wal-Mart greeters, er, have-nots.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

No, let America be a nation of people who do as they please.... up to and including firing 1000000 people to run a tighter ship, or indeed greeting folk at WalMart.

This idea that you need a middle class for society to function, and that this middle class should be protected by legal statute is bullshit.

Tapiwa
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

Another issue to consider: do Americans want their medical and financial data offshored as well? Methinks not.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

If America becomes a nation of Wal-Mart greeters, who's going to buy the crap corporate America is selling if said Wal-Mart greeters can't afford to buy said crap?

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

It’s all about anger.

People are so angry at rich people because they think that the rich people somehow are lucky, that they don’t “deserve" their wealth.  (Granted there are some rich people that won the lottery or inherited their wealth)

They think it’s shallow that a corporate exec will let go 10,000 in order to fatten the bottom line instead of catering to the mediocrity that has become the working person.

Mediocracy rules, just take a look at the UAW.

*********

Why would medical records be any more safe at home vs. offshore?  Get rid of the HIPPA B.S., problem solved.

apw
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

It isn't about anger, not for me, at least.

Corporate executives would have more credibility with me if they'd outsource some of their own. If you truly believe that mediocrity only exists among the ranks of 'the rank and file', I have some very nice beachfront property in New Jersey to sell you.

Another practice I find particularly galling: a state gives some company tax breaks to stay, said company accepts tax breaks and leaves anyway. And said company's executives proudly continue wearing American flag buttons on their lapels.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

ok maybe its not anger, probably jealousy then....
or maybe the misguided ideals of the socialist left in the US

apw
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

apw, you can insult me all you want, but I don't think it bodes well for America if the middle class continues to shrink.

Beware the power of my stinky feet!
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

apw, you do realize that the _overwhelming_ majority of the wealthy come from wealthy families, right? This idea that only a small percentage inherited wealth, or the powerful connections that assures wealth, is the height of naivety.

Dennis Forbes
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

As a sidenote, apw, your short sightedness is endearing. I suppose if you have an old couch to get rid of, you wait for the cloak of night when you scurry down to the local ravine and heave it over the edge of your expedition - why should you bother to drive to the dump and pay a dumping fee? It quite simply is more efficient to dump it in the ravine, and hey it saves you some effort too. Win win!

Dennis Forbes
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

No, I'd call Waste Management and they'd come pick it up.

apw
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

Most people don't realize that the US provides the world the demand that produces the supply necessary for economic growth in the developing world.  Destroy that demand quickly (due to rapid improvements in information technologies) and we are ALL in deep sh*t.  Have a nice day.

John Robb
Tuesday, December 16, 2003

---"Most people don't realize that the US provides the world the demand that produces the supply necessary for economic growth in the developing world"----

Actually the developing world, apart from China for manufactured goods and India for IT, doesn't sell a great deal to the US. Europe or Japan or Korea is much more dependent on strong American demand however.

One thing about US demand is that it is financed by a massive trade deficit. That is to say that much of the world is supplying US demand, but the US isn't actually paying for it, it's getting it on credit. I argued at lunch today that the possiblity of a dollar meltdown was unlikely because people's money had to go somewhere, but there are people who argue that the current level of imports to the US are unsustainable, and that there will be an almightly crash of the dollar.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, December 17, 2003

*  Recent Topics

*  Fog Creek Home