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Programming is no more interesting!

I'm 25 now, started coding just before my 12.  First professional assignment was Progress, then moved into WebSpeed. I've participated in large scale systems development and design, been a team leader for over 2 years.

Then I moved into different country and had to go for mostly technical position (90% coding). Pure coding doesn't appeal anymore to me. WebSpeed is not doing well, but it takes a lot of effort and time to become professional with something else like C#. Do not take me wrong, I studied C, C++ and Java in the college, but never done any large scale project using them.

Besides that I do understand that working us a programmer gives you very little leverage for making money (in terms of skills and knowledge). I mean "making" not "earning". :-)

It would take one at least 6 month/a year to start coding in different language in commercially acceptable manner. But I'd not have any commercial experience anyway, because my current employer is 100% Progress focused.

So, honestly, I'm lacking the motivation to devote another year or so and start over from the bottom of the ladder.

What would you do? Sure, some of you have been to similar situation. I'd be grateful for advice or shared experience.

The WebSpeed Man
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

If you've only been programming in html and the script like web languages then you are not a programmer, you are a product of the dot com boom in which everyone wanted a website.

Learn a Real Language
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

"If you've only been programming in html and the script like web languages then you are not a programmer, you are a product of the dot com boom in which everyone wanted a website."

LOL - OUCH that hurt! But how true!!!!!!!

I hope all of these amateur programmers & .dot com offspring go into another industry!!!!!

They'll all probably be our next generation of clueless Project Managers!!!!!! UGGGGGGGG....

:-)

GenX'er
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I'd say that reply is rude. What makes you judging someone's skills (mine obviously), without even knowing them?

If you believe, that you're better, more hard working, successfull and smarter than me, then please, keep your opinions for yourselves.

I need an opinion of someone who can be trusted.

The WebSpeed Man
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

"...lacking the motivation..."

with 25 years?

multiply the 25 x 2 and still you will need another 15 years to retire!

please sit down and enjoy.

Guillermo
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

>If you believe, that you're better, more hard working, successfull and smarter than me, then please, keep your opinions for yourselves.<

Yeah, you wouldn't want to actually learn something from someone like that, right?

There are none so blind...
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

If you have to ask then you belong elsewhere.

B#
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

If you don't like programming, try to find something you like to do. I see myself getting burned out in a couple years, and I'm 28. It would have been better to burn out 3 years ago, when I still could have been construed as "young and irresponsible."

rz
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

RZ, I wouldn't say "I hate programming". I hate doing it for salary, I hate doing in-house business systems development when you decide very little if anything.

It's just a tool for me. Unfortunatelly, I got trapped - that's only thing I do professionally. If I keep going I can reach the dead end. I want to slowly re-invent myself.

If Mr. B Gates kept coding he would never be where he is. If I keep sitting in the office, selling my brain and health for paycheck I will be like my manager. I do not want to be like him. I want to be like Joel or like Mr. Gates. Like James Dyson, for God sake!

The WebSpeed Man
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

It's not programming that burns me out!

What burns me out is:

1) Poor project management coming from managers.
2) Poor requirments that constantly change day to day from the business teams.
3) Poor policies & decisions made by CIO's
4) Lack of understand of architecture and current technologies by fellow developers and management.
5) Insatiable need to outsource to Indian programmers that produce crappy code that is poorly written & late.
6) Companies viewing IT as an expense and not an investment.

GenX'er
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

well said, GenXer. Second that.

anonQAguy
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

>>If you believe, that you're better, more
> hard working, successfull and smarter than
> me, then please, keep your opinions for
> yourselves.<

> Yeah, you wouldn't want to actually learn
> something from someone like that, right?

I don't know if I'd like to learn anything from someone who *believes* he is like that.

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

WebSpeed Man, no one knows the situation better than you.  When was the last time you took a vacation?  Take some time to recharge and think about what you really want to do with your life.  Sounds like you want to make more money but don't see how with your current skills and position.  I admire your ambition - if you're going to do something, do it before you get married, having kids and have a mortgage.
Sigh, you sound just like me at 25.  (I'm 28 now.)

ayhp
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

>> "I'd say that reply is rude. What makes you judging someone's skills (mine obviously), without even knowing them?

If you believe, that you're better, more hard working, successfull and smarter than me, then please, keep your opinions for yourselves.

I need an opinion of someone who can be trusted."

What you need is boot up your butt.  You come on this board saying you have web skills and are bored with programming... I can truly say that you are a dolt.  Web programming is not programming it is kiddie stuff.  You say have managed large projects? Hahahahahaha.  What was your largest project?  A site with 5 pages... Give me a break.  Go away and drive truck for living and quit pestering everyone.

Herein lies a major hiring problem,  "ScriptKiddie Managers" and "Big-Ego Manager Cause I developed a 10 page website with Flash 5 years ago and since then I've been managing stuff".  Hrmm... ok. 

Are my comments rude, absolutely.  Do you deserve it.  Absolutely.  Go out and do some real programming.... Oh wait... you've never done real programming.


Tuesday, October 28, 2003

>>>If you believe, that you're better, more
> hard working, successfull and smarter than
> me, then please, keep your opinions for
> yourselves.<

> Yeah, you wouldn't want to actually learn
> something from someone like that, right?

I don't know if I'd like to learn anything from someone who *believes* he is like that.

Paulo Caetano
<

Well, Paulo, let's think about this logically. Person A *believes* that he is better, more hard-working, successful and smarter than our esteemed WebSpeed Man.

Either Person A really is all those things, in which case WebSpeed Man could learn a thing or two from Person A.

Or Person A is *not* really all those things, in which case WebSpeed Man could learn what *not* to do in his own career.

The moral of the story, dude, is one can learn as much from anti-patterns as from design patterns. :-P

And with that, I take my leave. I must partake of some much-needed refreshment. Peace out, y'all!

There are none so blind...
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

> Or Person A is *not* really all those
> things, in which case WebSpeed Man could
> learn what *not* to do in his own career.

Or become infected :)))))))


> And with that, I take my leave. I must
> partake of some much-needed refreshment.
> Peace out, y'all!

Enjoy!

-----
"Suravye ninto manshima taishite (Peace favor your sword)" (Shienaran salute)
"Life is a dream from which we all must wake before we can dream again" (Amys, Aiel Wise One)

Paulo Caetano
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

"Then I moved into different country and had to go for mostly technical position (90% coding). Pure coding doesn't appeal anymore to me. "

You should seriously consider another line of work.  Why spend 40+ hours doing something that doesn't appeal to you.  My advice to you is get out it as fast as you can, while you are still young and can transition into something that does appeal to you.

"But I'd not have any commercial experience anyway, because my current employer is 100% Progress focused."

Your mistake was to get locked into a niche technology (Progress) soley because it was what your employer required.  The name of the game in programming is to research and try to stay abreast of current technologies.  The two biggies for web-programming now are .NET or Java.  If programming were something that still appealed to you, I would say pick one and master it (but this is all a moot point now). 

I guess you know what you have to do now.  Hope this helps. 

Cletus
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

Sorry WebSpeed man. While my peers could have been kinder, they are correct.  The issue is you are not a programmer or software developer and that is why the challenge is gone.  Gen X'er has a list of things that make developers crazy and boredom is rarely one. 

You have been riding a bicycle and after becoming good at riding it are bored with "driving."  (fish/small pond problem)  If you cannot afford six months to retool, it is better to get out now.  You will be spending the next 40 years retooling as a developer.  Failing to see that will make you unemployable at 40 and without a future beyond stocking shelves. 

Anon
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I know what you mean. Really, the only way to stop working in business systems is to quit working in an office. If you want to make a game, or something cool, you are better off getting a job at a coffee house, or living in your mom's basement and working on your idea in your spare time.

Staying in a corporate environment will sap all of your energy and kill any desire to do any creative computer work. It will also guarantee that the only jobs you will be able to find are doing what you were doing before.

So my advice is to make sure you have no debts, and can support yourself, then just quit what you are doing altogether, and start doing what you really want. Really consider if you want to be programming anything at all. Do you really want to be dealing with people like the ones replying to this thread, the rest of your life?

rz
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I can't stand when people give that "coding since I was 12 crap" when they're 25 and acting like they're an old-timer. You haven't seen or done anything yet.

x
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

"Do you really want to be dealing with people like the ones replying to this thread, the rest of your life?"

Wow.  I've never really thought about that.  I don't particularly like other developers.

Johnny Simmson
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I don't particularly like other people.


Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I don't like this or any of my other personalities either...

./.
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

The only thing I would say, WebSpeed guy, is that you have a wrong idea of what programming really is. You *must* retrain yourself every couple of months, or you will face the same fate of all that Novell engineers a couple of years back.

(P.S: slashdot types, please go lurk elsewhere)

Leonardo Herrera
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

If they're posting comments, they're not exactly lurking, now are they?

Mr. Mr.
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

And I can't stand the arrogance of assuming that just because you're older, you're better than the 25 year old.

There are plenty of 25 year olds that know more than 40 year olds (and vice versa). Stop being such a stuck up arse about age and experience. It doesn't mean much.

Sum Dum Gai
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

Read your own comments for your answer, son.

>Pure coding doesn't appeal anymore to me.  But it takes a lot of effort and time to become professional with something else  I'm lacking the motivation to devote another year or so and start over


You clearly have NO FUTURE in programming.  To stay EMPLOYED as a programmer, expect to START OVER ~ every 7 years.  I agree with others.  Find a new field. 

> If you believe, that you're better, more hard working,

Yes, others ARE more hard working.  You're too damn lazy to retrain yourself.  That's why, laughably, you're ALREADY unemployable in IT, you've ALREADY trapped yourself in a some dead-end niche by age 25.  You're like a 45 year old, trapped in a 25 year old body.  LOL.  Your ONLY option is to spend 1 year retooling.  Good luck, and let me know how law school goes.

Bella
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

" To stay EMPLOYED as a programmer, expect to START OVER ~ every 7 years"

7 years is a bit optimistic. I'd go for every 2-3 years. But, as you said, law school is probably a wiser choice.

rz
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

7 years sounds about right.

Most IT stuff lasts about 10 years.  You want to learn the new 'thing' just as the old 'thing' is dying out.

It take a few years to learn it, a few more to get comfortable, by then it's boring, time to move on.

DOS, Novell, Windows (as in '95, not NT) all went about that long.

VB lasted about 10 years.  You'll get a few more years out of it, but commercially you'd better be looking at .Net.  (I still use PDS 7.1!)  Access is doing well, (11 years and counting) but SQL Server has been taking over in the past few years.

The last major change to Office was '97.  If my theory holds out, it's on the downward slide as far as 'new stuff' is concerned.  Seems about right, Office XP & 2003 hardly seem to be worth it.

So yeah, Bella's 7 year estimate sounds good.

For any developers who want something new, try electronics.  There's no money or jobs in it, but it's interesting.  Start with digital, analog will only confuse you.  www.microchip.com has the PIC range.  Little uPs with a few k (yes K) of memory, heaps of 'net sources, C & Basic compilers, etc.

AJS
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

WebSpeed Man,

if you're convinced you're wasting your time right now, just quit and start doing what you like! That's what Bill and Joel did... Never mind what others think or say, take control and surprise us all!

Jack
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

I thought I would be one of the few who's intersested in Microchips PIC micros and lurking in these forums. Looks like AJS too has teh same interests

Sunish
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

I won't debate on my skills here. Its pointless and boring, I know what I'm and where I'm heading. Being alone in foreign country, speaking foreign language during IT markets slowdown, then locals can't find jobs anymore, I still able to compete for prestigios senior positions and get them.

So leave your programming fanatism and each 7-year from scratch behind the door. I'm not interested.

My plan is:
1. Put aside as much as I can (about $1000 a month now)
2. Learn C# and .NET slowly, but constanely - to remain employable, although even my "deadend" technology is enough to be afloat for next 3 years.
3. Learn business (what's why I came to UK)
4. Find my team, or people who share my ideas.
5. Start working as consultant in my free time (problems with legal aspects)

I do appreciate the "work in coffee shop" advice - it more than sensible for me: you can earn your living, you have your eyes open and brains free. I had an idea of reducing my working hours with corporation, so I could devote more time to my ideas.

I'm good programmer (at least all my collegues say so). Its my weakness, like all programmers I'm perfectionist. Its one big thing to overcome - I find it hard to trust others to develop my ideas.

And I'd like to say something to some "over-critical commrades" here: unfortunatelly you have very little idea what I'm talking about. We're humans, sure there are a lot of things other than computers we like in our lives. Sure, if you were seriously programming for some years you'd understand that computers just a tool. Sure, you'd know that if you smart enough you can succeed in more than one thing in life. Sure, you'd know that you'd like much more time to devote to your families and loved ones. I say: quit the rat-race! I say be free! And then code you ass off in all those "decent", "serious", "real" languages if your imaginations doesn't let you go beyond this point.

And thanks everyone for ideas, I'd be interested how in more true stories of people quitting. Start is easy. How to quit?

The WebSpeed Man
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

Ok, now you have more information for us to understand you. That's a good thing. But I believe what you need is to work less. You sound stressed (really!.)

Take your own advice, it looks just right.

Leonardo Herrera
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

6.  Take English as 2nd Language so as can make lots of moneys in UK.    All your coffee shop are belong to us

Bella
Thursday, October 30, 2003

mmm... Not sure that you meant, Bella.

I did come in UK to learn English in a first place and its definitely much better than a year ago.

Now I'm up to meet more interesting people in UK, who would help me in putting my ideas into life.

The WebSpeed Man
Friday, October 31, 2003

Have you ever tried to learn another language, Bella? Your comments are so typical for narrowminded people who has never tried to learn a new language.

-
Friday, October 31, 2003

I guess in every discussion group you may find people like Bella.  They make discussions spicier and much more entertaining. I wish she were able to speak any of three languages besides English, that I do. When, probably, I'd respect her remarks a bit more.

Thank you for your replies, I hope this was an interesting thread to read.

The WebSpeed Man
Friday, October 31, 2003

Webspeed Man,

I respect your accurate insight into the true nature of this industry.  There has been, is, and will continue to be money to be made from software technology.

However, most of the personal fortunes made from SW tech were made in the past. That is, when the software world was much less mature, programs and teams were far smaller, opportunities to serve clients were much more straightforward, and the bar to success was far lower.

I suspect that there are latent opportunities available in SW  - the next "Napster" kinds of things. But you have to have the passion in your soul to basically live and breath the technology in order to succeed. The problem with doing so is that today, opportunities are increasingly distant, abstract, and wrapped up in someone else's platform glop.

Bored Bystander
Friday, October 31, 2003

Webspeed *is* Progress.

The Progress family of products continues to grow. I'll bet you didn't know the Queen Mary II runs on Progress.

Your expectations were bloated by the fact you entered the industry at a high point. Many of us have seen ups and downs over the decades.

If you don't love your work, you definitely should change.

Where are you located now?

David K. James
Wednesday, February 04, 2004

Ever heard of the "Spock" syndrom.  It's this theory I recently came up with. I've been doing software for 15 years. Before that I was an army ranger commando special forces type.  Guess which life I liked more?  But let me tell you about my Spock syndrom theary. Remember Star Trek.  Between Spock and Kirk. Who got the girl.  Who had a more exiting life. Who was the personality that everyone wanted to be around. Spock?  No. Kirk? Yes.  Spock devoted himself to the pursuit of logic. Just as us programmers live logic. Spock was logical. Unassuming. Impassionate and yes Boring.  Programmers suffer from the Spock syndrome.  It is possible to be a successful programmer and not suffer from this syndrom. How? Leave your work at work. Learn how to turn off the logic. Get involved with sober social groups like toastmasters or Art societies.  If you think you want to get out of software try leveraging your technical skills and do some work with hardware.  Microcrontrollers. Hacking Tivo. Setting up a home jukbox on your laptop with external mass storage. That sort of stuff.      Good luck

Ed Smith
Friday, April 02, 2004

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