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How To: Promote free Job Service

We have a free Job service dedicated to developers, managers, etc. in the high-tech industry. That on-line service allows to post/search job positions and resumes. We also provide automatic matching job alert and hot jobs monthly newsletter per country.

We more succeeded with companies and recruiters than resumes. Is it Ok to collect e-mails from different high-tech mailing lists to notify people about our job service, with a "remove" option from our e-mailing?

Please advice how else to promote that free job service.

PS: Joel diligently removed all my previous posts which referred to that job service. I will not be surprised if this message also will disappear. No comments.. :-(

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

"Is it Ok to collect e-mails from different high-tech mailing lists to notify people about our job service, with a "remove" option from our e-mailing?" 

No.

I can't believe that you're really asking if it's Ok to spam.  in fact, in the tech industry I believe that it's actually counter-productive - I for one always avoid dealing with companies who send me spam... and please don't think that a 'remove' link makes it any better - most of them are just there to obtain confirmation that the emails are being read.

r1ch
Saturday, October 25, 2003

I agree in general, I never send "remove" e-mails to not-trusted contacts.

On the other side we provide web site with clear content. There is a Job Service, which may help developers to find a job.

But again, what else can we do to bring more Resumes on web site? Please advice.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Evegeny,
If you want to spam people, go ahead, you don't need the approval of the readers of this board or the readers of any board. Do what you like.

However:
If you don't want people snubbing your business, constantly complaining to your ISP and trying to get your website closed down, constantly adding you to blacklists so your emails don't get delivered, etc, then do not spam.

And no it isn't the case that "But its not spam because we..." - If you send me unsolicited email I would boycott your service, no matter how good your cause, it isn't about content its about consent.

Robert Moir
Saturday, October 25, 2003

OK! :-) I agree, agree, agree!

But what you advice to do to bring resumes and people on web site?
That is the point! Advice please!

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

IMO, start with local promotion - ads in local newspapers etc. Try forming alliances with webmaster/programming sites & forums as well. Also checkout www.sitepoint.com for more on how to go about promoting your service.

Good luck.

EastIndian
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Either hire someone to do your marketing, or get out.

Posting on developer sites where you KNOW that you spam will be deleted is braindead.

By association, so is your service.

AJS
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Content content content.  If you want people to come to your site, give them a reason to come there.  Look at Joel, he posts articles that are of interest to developers, developers come to his site, and they all see the blurb at the bottom of each article mentioning FogBugz, and presumably some percentage of them buy FogBugz.

You need to do something similar.  Have a reason for developers to come to your site in the first place.  Have some cool free downloads, have interesting articles, have an active user forum (hint: you need a reason for people to come to this, too).

You and your site are not entitled to our time.  You have to earn it.  It's as simple as that.

Kevin
Saturday, October 25, 2003

> Start with local promotion - ads in local newspapers etc.
I think that has a very low ROI, not acceptable.

> Also checkout www.sitepoint.com for more
That was first thing I done ! :-)

> Either hire someone to do your marketing, or get out.
And what that new person will do? Send balk e-mails and advertise in newspapers? What is advantage to hire when all that can be done at no cost?

> Content content content.
I agree. We already have good Job content and excellent search engine. But with a few hundred members we have a lack of resumes on the site. Job seekers need to know of our service!  How notify them?

More comments please!

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

> And what that new person will do? Send balk e-mails and advertise in newspapers? What is advantage to hire when all that can be done at no cost?

You don't have a clue, do you?

You don't get something for nothing.

In case you haven't noticed, the .com bubble burst about over 2 years ago.  The market for 'post your job/resume' sites is saturated or dead, your choice.  You have 2 options - start slow and build up (ie years), or come up with a concept that is so astounding, so amazing, so patentable that people will fall over themselves to join.

As this thread shows, you have neither the patience or ability to achieve either.

You need to be Google.  Are you?

AJS
Saturday, October 25, 2003

You don't know me, I have a practical experience building a long running and successfull community. :-)
See Javadesk User Group on Yahoo
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/java-desk/
and then note that it has been chosen as one of the Top 25 Java User Groups in the world
  http://servlet.java.sun.com/jugs/top25.jsp

But I need the next clue, can you? :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Ok, for a change I'll try to be helpful. ;-)

Evgeny - You've gotten some decent advice, namely the post about "content".

However, you're running a commercial site and you are saying that while you currently have interest from employers, you really need candidates to post resumes. True? If so, it's doubtful that your target customers are going to fall out from articles that you post. (See below for exception to this. )

If so, and if this is to be an internet only operation, you should probably approach it as a site promotion problem and try to get indexed on as many search engines as possible under the relevant keywords.  I have a friend who swears by the package "Web Position Gold" for this purpose.

Another possibility is to specialize and target a very small niche that not many people are interested in. Example - I get mails from a recruiter/bork site that styles itself as "Personal Delphi Agents". Every Delphi developer I know knows about this site.

So, you might be most successful specializing in a computing niche, and then using a package like Web Pos. Gold to publicize the sh*t out of it.

One last thing. As others said: NO... do NOT collect email addresses from technical mailing lists. *All* of us who are targeted by spammers who do this think the spammers are idiots and disreputable.  It takes a degree of trust to post one's resume. You will develop a sleazy reputation if you do this. Same goes for posts to Usenet.  The point is - your traffic *must* come from "passive" means - people seeking out a service and finding you.  There is little you can do that is active to entice people that won't look stupid.

I do think that the job web site market is oversaturated. However, I can see the attraction. If you make even 3 submissions for full time candidates a year, that's a VERY tidy sum.

Bored Bystander
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Oh, yeah, the one exception to content being irrelevant for a site like this... if you post a few "frank" articles on "let the job applicant beware" that describe pitfalls of dealing with disreputable agencies, and which showcase your company as being reputable, then you may have people eating out of your hand. IE, you could develop a lot of trust with a few good articles that get indexed by the search engines.

Bored Bystander
Saturday, October 25, 2003

> But I need the next clue, can you? :-)

Here's a clue.  What exactly does your site sell?

I see (in no particular order) books, ads, web space, shopping carts, development, contractor, etc etc etc, and yes, yet another bloody site offering to build me web site.

You want a job site?  Ditch the rest.

Why would an employer post a job add on a contractors website?  Talk about conflict.  Conversly, as a job seeker, what's there for me?  Oh great, you can build me a website.  Thanks, but that's the job I want.

AJS
Saturday, October 25, 2003

> dealing with disreputable agencies...

I don't think Monster checks who is posting jobs and resumes. Similarly I don't know how to control this. Tell me, if you know. Anyway I think the site should be reputable, not agencies.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

> What exactly does your site sell?... Talk about conflict.
Well, we sell project development (main biz), dedicated managed hosting (because some of customers want us to host the developed systems),  on-line web store (books are for illustration), it's a couple of things.

But you are right, some can see a conflict. We are too busy to focus on improving web site. We improve our services instead and will add new.

> Why would an employer post a job add on a contractors website?
Why not? The service is free, dedicated to all registered members, we only monitor that everything goes well.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Please post more comments. The initial question was how to bring more job seekers to our Job Service? I thankful for all you opinions, especially  critiques and suggestions!

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

I'm reluctant to post any more until I get a reaction to the piece  I posted earlier. I got the sense that you're not an agency, but you want to run a job board.

Is it for profit, or are you an agency, or what? If you won't say what your business will be, how can anyone help you?

Bored Bystander
Saturday, October 25, 2003

1. We are software house, not jobs agency.
2. Because we use contractors in our projects, other businesses may ask us for a candidate to work in their project, not our.
3. We run the job service to know about available developers/managers to work in our projects. Consider, with that board I don't need to pay to Monsters or Dice to know about great talents (may be not so great talents as Joel's top 99.99% ;-). The service is free.
4. We need the job service, of course to generate traffic to the site and bring more business.
5. In addition we want sell that job service as one of our products. Again our main business is the Project Development, not selling job service.
6. I see special advatages having that job board and services that help to communicate with site members, like forum (here's this one) and on-line chat.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

So, while our Job Service can help other to find a job or candidate at no cost, it helps us to improve our business.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Saturday, October 25, 2003

Evgeny, why don't you specifically try to operate a service that directly links job seekers with vacancies, completely removing recruiters?

This is of course not easy, but there are probably some innovative things you could provide that would make it useful for employers. You must get the employers if you want it to be useful. You must also exclude recruiters from posting jobs. How you do that and why is the challenge you face.

One idea for building it up is to approach unions and other groups that represent workers, and offer to provide a quality service through them.

Must be a Manager
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Evgeny, do us all a favour.  Get a big stick, write clue on it, and hit yourself over the head with it.

Why would I go to your site?  Until you answer that question, you won't get anywhere.

Everything you are targeting is oversupplied.

Job boards are dead.  'We'll build your web site' sites are dead.  'Add a shopping cart' sites are dead.  On-line book stores are dead.  Web hosting is dead.  Hell, you don't have any porn there, but it's dead too.

Even if it wasn't dead, you can't offer project development and expect to attract either employers or job seekers to your site.  It's called conflict of interest.  An employee post's a job, who is candidate #1?  To all those who said Evgeny, a pat on the back & a gold star.

As has been said before, you have nothing that I can't find anywhere else.  Even worse, you don't even have a reputation.  This thread is not helping that.

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

> Evgeny, why don't you specifically try to operate a service that
> directly links job seekers with vacancies, completely removing
> recruiters?

Direct employment is often better, but employment via a recruiting company is more than nothing. Job seekers should decide what they want, why to limit choices? I agree that having more offers from employers is the benefit, but even big job service providers, like Monster, don't  spend expensive time and money in filterring job posters.

> Job boards are dead.  'We'll build your web site' sites are dead.
>  'Add a shopping cart' sites are dead.  On-line book stores are
> dead.  Web hosting is dead.  Hell, you don't have any porn there,
> but it's dead too.
> ...
> As has been said before, you have nothing that I can't find
> anywhere else.  Even worse, you don't even have a reputation.

Visit your doctor. Are you employed? :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

> .. employment via a recruiting company is more than nothing

Evgeny, you don't get it. You have nothing to offer.

Must be a Manager
Sunday, October 26, 2003

There are 13 job positions in the USA posted in October. They are not my. May be you don't understand what I provide the on-line service to all companies and recruiters, but not necessary post my jobs?

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Well. lets stop this thread. Enough is enough.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

13 jobs ads in one month.  That's like, one every 2 days!  Huzzah!  Chew on that, Monster.

Evgeny, meet Metcalfe's Law.

Perhaps you should add selling pet food to your web site.  Can't hurt, I hear it's a real winner.

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

I don't think that your work for 3Com. May be for Pet Store. :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

3Com?  Eh?  I don't get it...

Speaking of not getting it (several things, but that's not important right now), 'pet food' was a reference to the little lamented www.pets.com, who lost a large amount of other peoples money offering a service no-one really wanted.

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Thank you for that important link. Pet-s-Mart looks like a successful company. Do you own it? Will you tell us more how pets and their foods may improve software development?

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

I don't know anything about your business model, I'll accept that people can get anything to work if they're clever enough.

I'd identify what keeps people from posting resumes.  Privacy is one.  You might consider tools like mail forwarding.  Then you can promote privacy in the same breath as Javadesk.  This at least will make you seem professional and discreet.  Make it braindead simple to post a resume with privacy!

Look at those personals sites.  I clicked on fuckedcompany's; it's down at the moment, but it looked good and focussed.  I think jobs sites probably make too much of a difference between company and applicant; companies need to sell themselves as well to get the right developer.  Tell them your method will get them quality people, with the only cost being some thoughtfulness and fun.

My impression from your site is that it does lots of things, none well.  Maybe you should get a copy of that Non-designer's Design Book that Joel reviewed, to simplify things.

Tayssir John Gabbour
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Sheesh, I'm caught in Bizarro world.  I wonder what level Dante would put the internet on.

Failing that, someone has put up an enthusiastic Eliza bot - 'yes, tell me more!'.

Googling 'javadesk evgany' (like any new prospect would do) turns up a few things.  It has yet to find this thread, but it will.  Not good for you, Evgany.

Hmmm, ok you've been around for 4 years, but haven't discovered spamming is bad.  There's a geocities site, that figures.  There's Evgany spamming PBase (photo gallery site) trying to save a few dollars by getting a logo done for free.  No harm trying, I suppose.

You decide to enter an overpopulated market, and can only think of here to ask for advice.  Odd choice.  You get good advice - content, niche, patience - which you ignore or dismiss.

On top of that, you've managed to avoid hearing about the dot com crash, in which pets.com was a major player.  Have a read  - www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/jan2001/nf20010124_381.htm 

Try www.boo.com or www.enron.com for more major successes.

Anyway, I thought you were tired of this thread?

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

That's .htm on the end of that URL above.

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

lol.

thanks for the idea about becoming the NAT equiv of a recruiter.  Interesting idea!

This site isn't an agency, it is just a site that links jobseekers with jobs without the agency inbetween (except this site, of course..)

Now _that_ sounds spinnable!

i like i
Sunday, October 26, 2003

> This site isn't an agency, it is just a site that links jobseekers with
> jobs without the agency inbetween (except this site, of course..)

EXACTLY ! at no cost for both sides :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

The job boards already work like that.

If you want to hire someone, you can post an ad as either an agency or as an employer.

As a registered member, you get access to job seekers resumes.

As previously mentioned, you need something new to succeed in this area.  Making it free won't make it successful.  Having the word 'free' is your business plans is so 1999.

AJS
Sunday, October 26, 2003

> Hmmm, ok you've been around for 4 years
Thank you :-)

> There's Evgany spamming PBase (photo gallery site) trying to save
> a few dollars by getting a logo done for free.
I really requested once in PBase forum for an image for our T-Shirts.
http://forum.pbase.com/viewtopic.php?t=699&highlight=evgeny
I'm surprised that they add my domain to the spam. I will try to contact them.

> Anyway, I thought you were tired of this thread?
Thank you, you are so kindly during this thread. You can be on of my competitors or don't like pets or whatever else, I don't know.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

> I'd identify what keeps people from posting resumes.
> Privacy is one.

Where we collect personal information on the web (register, submit  job or resume, etc.), we always post a purpose statement that explains why personal information will be collected and whether will be shared or not outside of Javadesk.

> Tell them your method will get them quality people, with the only cost
> being some thoughtfulness and fun.
Thanks I will use that method.

> My impression from your site is that it does lots of things, none well.
> Maybe you should get a copy of that Non-designer's Design Book
> that Joel reviewed, to simplify things.
I know, the problem is - our home page. We will seat and think how to improve it to immediately tell our visitors what we do.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

so if you set up "NAT Router Recruiter", connecting jobseekers with employers for *free*, how are you going to pay for the upkeep to the site?  Sell their email addresses for spam??

At what point is a job board a recruiter?  I would have a hard job distinquishing between the two..

i like i
Sunday, October 26, 2003

>.. connecting jobseekers with employers for *free*, how are you
> going to pay for the upkeep to the site?

We sell to employers a space in "hot jobs" monthly newsletter. If all you need is to learn this service and possible profit - it is not profiable. Site costs are covered by other services, not that free jobs. But as I already posted free jobs may improve web site and bring new businesses.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Evgeny - why don't you sell your web site to companies as an example of how not to build a web site.. It is a true disaster.

looks like it was knocked up by some fifteen year old kid who really hated computers, and had never actually seen more than a couple of web pages.

It's so awful that it's hard to know where to start, but since you have to get about three levels deep, and register in order to even find out that you are offering to take people's resumes, it's not surprising you're not getting any.

And "Unlimited resumes" as something you put in a shopping cart (at an obviously fake 20% discount!). I mean that is really going to give the job seeker confidence in the personal touch!

Stephen Jones
Sunday, October 26, 2003

WOW! :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

[b]I think this thread is died and that inspired by those few (new) anonimous, which in turn may be a one or two real persons - the competitors. I get that AJS understands what I talk about, but not provided the answer to my question, instead kicked me out without stop.

Business obligates me to work hard, not to listen to such people. Thanks to all others who tried to answer! :-)[/b]

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

Dear Stephen Jones. I visited you web site and found that you offer THE SAME SERVICE as we - design, hosting, development. GREAT! But lets stop this thread, it's not interesting.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Sunday, October 26, 2003

I don't think Stephen Jones is trying to collect resumes and sell books as well.

Pick one market.

AJS
Monday, October 27, 2003

Evgeny, since nobody here can understand what your business model is supposed to be, my feeling is that you don't really have a well defined business. It sounds like a bit of this, a bit of that.

I don't see how you could possibly develop a web site that anyone would use or understand.

Also, you sound incredibly thick headed about accepting constructive criticism, and you don't respond to any specific ideas for action. Why the heck should anyone help you? At least engage someone who is trying to help in a discussion. You have blown off every worthwhile point.

Fail, and fail alone... I don't think you're for real.

Gadfly
Monday, October 27, 2003

Evgeny

I think you are a spam artist.

O'my
Monday, October 27, 2003

Dear Evgeny,
                    You seem to have added futurology to the many things you offered, since I don't have a web site, never have had one, and am unlikely to have one for the next few months at least.

                      You're right about the thread having no future; nor does your web site.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

But I really glad to you all for the comments! Don't take it wrong :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

Actually Stephen, I was wondering about your website, since you never seemed to have mentioned it.  So what's it like having a successful design/develop/hosting etc site? 

You know Evgeny, wouldn't it have been better for you to post this question on your own site, or on the 'Top 25' Java newsgroup you run?  I mean, you get a lot of vistors there, don't you?

AJS
Tuesday, October 28, 2003

I posted to my JUG and in some other places and get advices.
Last night we updated the home page and improved some other areas of the web site.

Note, that web site can help to improve the business operations. I know companies which do successful business and have not very attractive sites. In many cases personal contacts play more important role than great online look, you know.

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

> I know companies which do successful business and have not very attractive sites. In many cases personal contacts play more important role than great online look, you know.

If that is so, then ask them for 'the secret' of their success. 

In general, a product that looks poor is perceived to a poor product.  The opposite also holds.  Compare a Lada to a Lotus.  Both work, but I'd rather have the Lotus.  Your business (as viewed thru your website) appears to be a Lada.  Read that carefully... your website is not your business...

Now, if you can get a product that works, looks good and is cheap, well!

AJS
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

> If that is so, then ask them for 'the secret' of their success.

The secret is very simply - get a job. Take as much work as you can. Justify size of your business, if you have too much work. Make money by doing projects, not spending expensive time into making the best L&F company web site. ;-)

> Compare a Lada to a Lotus.  Both work, but I'd rather have the Lotus.

Take a taxi :-)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Wednesday, October 29, 2003

Ah Evgeny,

Good to see that you are:

A)  Still checking the thread, even after saying twice you wouldn't.

B)  Still not actually reading or comprehending (big word, you might want to look that up) other peoples posts, but feeling you have to respond anyway.  Even to this one.

C)  Still putting a smiley after every sentence, thus convincing everyone you are only 15 years old (real professionals don't do that :-) ).

AJS
Thursday, October 30, 2003

Ah AJS,

you done your job at the beginning of this thread, right strategy + some methods from your professional experience. Thank you for generating members' interest and referring them to my site. Here is a not very professional smile :^)

Should I open a new thead? :0)

Evgeny Gesin /Javadesk/
Thursday, October 30, 2003

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