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leave company => theh give you a better offer

i decided to leave my current company. main reasons is i don't see my career growth. i also mentioned it to my boss that i'm going to leave.

he come back and offered a new deal. fix number of hours (eg 20 hrs a week), higher salary and work on a project basis. it turned out that they want me. want me seriously.

right now i'm hesitant what to do. i decided to go to consultancy in any case, so it would be ideal to work as a consultant for this company.

i'm thinking of way what would be ideal. also what % of raise should i ask, or if i'm a consultant should i ask even 2-3x higher rate as an employee. the reason for this is that i don't have full job.

also should i stick that "he will buy my time", eg 20 hours/week and if he cannot give me work in that case he should pay it anyway? it would be good for me.

how would you approach this situation?

name not available
Friday, October 10, 2003

Once you decide to leave then leave.
You won't be trusted and they will
dump you when they have a chance.

son of parnas
Friday, October 10, 2003

do it hourly. have them sign a contract you write, not the other way around.

rz
Friday, October 10, 2003

If you are going to be a consultant and work for yourself then do it.  If they want to be your first customer, even better.

John Ridout
Friday, October 10, 2003

i think i'm trusted, as i was loyal to the company for a high number of years, and i truly helped them a lot, and was always ethical with them, no cheating, etc

name not available
Friday, October 10, 2003

You wanted to leave because you saw no career growth.  Does this new opportunity provide you with career growth?

The Pedant, Brent P. Newhall
Friday, October 10, 2003

this is the same way i got the first client for my consultancy. just make sure you set up the contract so that you aren't being paid for 20 hours a week and on the hook for 40.

rz
Friday, October 10, 2003

Once you show disloyalty to the team you are no longer
trusted. This is basic human behaviour. They clearly need
you, but it will be in their best interests to replace you
as soon as possible while keeping you on until then.

Do as you will of course, but have a back up plan if
your faith is not rewarded.

son of parnas
Friday, October 10, 2003

>i think i'm trusted, as i was loyal to the company for a high number of years, and i truly helped them a lot, and was always ethical with them, no cheating, etc <

Dude, with all due respect, whether you think you're trusted by the company or not doesn't friggin' matter. I can think I'm king of the world, but it doesn't make me so.

The bottom line is, if you stay on under the same terms, there's always the possibility they'll dump you if they can find someone cheaper. For all you know their 'counteroffer' may be just a short-term ploy to buy themselves some time. And consider how your leaving makes your boss look. I'm sure you're thinking, Hey, not my problem. But allow me to continue. Maybe some people higher up think its his fault you want to leave. If you stay for more money under the same terms, the higher ups may want to bust your boss' stones and he, in turn, may decide to do the same to you.

And what about co-workers? Some may decide to try the same thing, in an attempt to get more money. Again, higher ups will be looking for someone to blame. Ya-know-what-I'm-sayin'?!

Ole Scratch
Friday, October 10, 2003

some background: i was one of the first employee of this company, then it growed to >100, then back to 30.

several years ago i decided to leave, and then 7 months later they called me to help them, double salary. i then spent few years there again, finished two huge projects.

obviously i do not want to make the same mistake. i mean i do not want to stuck there for additional years, however if i'm going to be a consultant, then there is an opportunity to learn in other places and do money here.

name not available
Friday, October 10, 2003

It's clear what you want to do. So just do it.

son of parnas
Friday, October 10, 2003

http://www.jobsontheweb.com/counter.htm

Those are kinda fluffy, but the basic idea is - you are leaving for a reason that isn't monetary. Them offering you more money doesn't change that. The key part - THEY KNOW THIS. Their offer is not to buy you back, it's to buy time to find your replacement.

Never accept a counteroffer - more people have been screwed than happy as a result.

Philo

Philo
Friday, October 10, 2003

obviously they will be trying to find a full time replacement for you, but they can't do so immediately. so just set up a contract where you are being paid for 20 hours. full time employees quitting and going contract happens all the time. i've done it more than once.

the language used in a few of the comments above is a bit bizarre: "trust/disloyalty/faith." You aren't judas selling jesus to the romans, you're just moving from full time to a part time contract.

rz
Friday, October 10, 2003

My advice - all the stuff about treating the new arrangement with the current/past employer as temporary is correct.

So, if you are of the mindset to be a contractor or consultant, then treat the new arrangement with the old employer as your first contract.

Bear in mind that the first contract is the easiest, because it's the "reason" most people start out in contracting to begin with.  The acid test of being a contractor is having an exit plan and always being ready to market yourself for the next contract. That's the point at which most new contractors bail and look for a "job" job.

Bored Bystander
Friday, October 10, 2003

To backup Philo, there was a study published not too long ago (sorry I can't find the link) that showed a high percentage of employees were let go within a year after they took a "threaten to leave, accept a counteroffer" type of situation with their current employer.

m
Friday, October 10, 2003

>>
Once you show disloyalty to the team you are no longer
trusted. This is basic human behaviour. They clearly need
you, but it will be in their best interests to replace you
as soon as possible while keeping you on until then.
<<

I don't think this is basic human behaviour.  This is basic human behaviour for humans who are mentally children.  Believe it or not, there are employers out there who are smart enough to realize that employees don't exist solely as a means to their employer's ends.  A typical person is going to place family and self (and maybe some other things) ahead of employer in their priority list.  Good employers know this and will either adequately compensate employees or will wish the best to employees who decide to leave the company to pursue something else.  Employers who insist on 'loyality' will end up with mostly employees who just pretend that the company is the most important thing in their lives as well as a few true believers who wouldn't qualify as well-adjusted.  Not a healthy situation.

On the other hand, it probably isn't a healthy situation if you have to threaten to leave the company to get what you want. 

SomeBody
Friday, October 10, 2003

>Believe it or not, there are employers out there who are
>smart enough to realize that employees don't exist solely
> as a means to their employer's ends.

I'll have to take your word for it.

son of parnas
Friday, October 10, 2003

I'll go with what son of parnas says on this too.  The basic problem is that you can't have a "relationship" in the transactional sense with someone who is at a grossly different level of power with you. Also, traditional HR culture does *NOT* subscribe to any notion of the employee being capable of redefining the relationship. Most companies are dictatorships.  Any gesture to the contrary of "the company is all" is subversive and is disacknowledged.

Yeah, I know that's @$$holish and backward of the company, they won't get the best people, etc. Most companies aren't looking for the "best" unless the individual's goals fits the companys'.

So, the idea of an employee entering a negotiation as a business partner of sorts with the past employer is possible but highly unlikely.

However, if it happens in a plausible way, I would play it at face value.

Bored Bystander
Friday, October 10, 2003

>"A typical person is going to place family and self (and maybe some other things) ahead of employer in their priority list.  Good employers know this and will either adequately compensate employees or will wish the best to employees who decide to leave the company to pursue something else."

The fact that they didn't see any reason to pay the original poster adequately until they found out he was leaving is evidence that they don't fit in the category of "good employer".

While continuing to work as an employee is a recipe for disaster, the above circumstances shouldn't be a deterrent to working as an hourly contractor.  With contractors there is no loyalty or career path expected on either side.  They come in for a relatively short time, do what they have to do, get paid, and get out.  No expectations beyond that.

T. Norman
Friday, October 10, 2003

If they really want you, as they seem to, then you have the upper hand in negotiations. Stop thinking like an employee.

This is the deal you give them:

1. Fixed contract for two years at some dream weekly rate. Fixed contract means they have to pay it out if they decide they no longer want your services.

2. Right to do other jobs at your discretion

3. Share of revenue ( not profit) from the product or whatever you're contributing to

.
Saturday, October 11, 2003

I'm lead by the wisdom that when a problem isn't solved after second time by only turning up the heat, the tactic or solution or problem has to be totally overthinked and solved in a very different way.
When I read all the comments i see that pattern. You've had left the company for seven months already. But you come back, and again, you hit the point of zero motivation. So,
I guess it's time for the sabbatical year. (See
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000076.html )

P.S.: You manager or whatsoever he calls himself is doing a bad job. He or she should have give you prospects not offering more money. That's the totally wrong method that this man or woman applies.

Michael Bruckmeier
Sunday, October 12, 2003

They need you NOW but as soon as you become less relevant for them (and it'll happen sooner or later) they'll fire you, more likely if you work for them as a consultant.

If you decided to leave in the first place, then leave, the reasons you gave for your leaving are still valid, aren't they?

Anoymous coward
Monday, October 13, 2003

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