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cabling rant

Quite a few good Philo rants going around (a/v cabling, power bricks, USB), I thought I'd add my own favorite:

Why do freaking cables cost so much!!  I just bought a $600 camcorder that did not come with a firewire cable - I had to buy one for $27!!  How much can a 3' stretch of wire possibly cost? 

I'm all for an open market and profitability, but this is ridiculous!  I've finally learned to crimp my own Cat5 cables - a great savings.  Is it possible to do this with Firewire or USB? 

Belkin is privately held - otherwise I think I'd invest all of my 401k in them and retire early.

Jason
Monday, January 19, 2004

I'd pay for cabling without a bleat if I didn't feel sodomized every time I buy a printer cartridge.

George Carlin has it right, bend over so they can service your account!


Monday, January 19, 2004

You buy printer cartridges? For my money I just buy a new printer. That's how long the last anyway.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

[For my money I just buy a new printer.]

Are you Mr. Money Bags?  Let me guess you also throw away your dishes every meal and buy new ones.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Two printer cartridges for $30 a pop, or 1 printer for $50. You tell me which is more economical.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

>> "Quite a few good Philo rants going around"

Philo's given too much credit for too many things.  He's basically has the gift of gab, which of course can and does work against him also.


Monday, January 19, 2004

What do you do with all of your old printers Mark?

Let me guess you throw it away?  Do you know what happens to it when you throw it away in your little dumpster of fun?  It gets put into a landfill.  Do you know what happens when that printer is in the landfill?  I'll give you two guesses and the first doesn't count.

Unless you donate this stuff to charity, your just another ignorant person dumping junk into the environment.  Congratulations, you've won a glass of mercury contanimated water.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Actually, what really happens is they break long before the ink runs out.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

See my review here

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006LPO8/ref=cm_cr_dp_2_1/103-1574301-8790269?v=glance&s=electronics&vi=customer-reviews

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

... so I guess you could say it's HP's fault for making printers that are only good as landfill.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

Did you understand what I said?  Or do you choose to ignore it?

You sir, are contributing to the pollution of the environment.


Monday, January 19, 2004

It's your fault for not taking responsiblity for your actions.  If you buy a printer, it's your responsibility to ensure that it is disposed of properly.  There are places that either fix them and re-market them or recycle the pieces of the printer that can be recycled.


Monday, January 19, 2004

You're right. I'm glad you're connecting to JoS from your Commodore 64 and still wearing your Bell Bottoms.

You'll be happy to know, though, that I haven't changed my underwear in 5 years, and I don't wear deoderant, so I'm doing at least a *little* bit to save the environment.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

"What do you do with all of your old printers Mark?"

I don't know what Mark does with his old printers, but my brother has a similar theory on the economics of ink jet printers.  When the ink runs out, he buys a new printer instead of buying ink cartridges and sells the old printer on Ebay.  This turns out to be less expensive than actually buying replacement ink cartridges.  It wouldn't work if everybody did this, but most people don't do the math to figure out the cost per page printed.

anon
Monday, January 19, 2004

Grow up Mark.  Your feeble come back sounds like you just got out of sixth grade. 

Not everything is about money.

Admit that throwing out your printers is polluting the environment.  Admit that you can do better by selling them to a used computer equipment store or find a recycling program that accepts them.  Shouldn't be too difficult in a big city.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Well blank, maybe you can make some money refurbishing printers? You'll need to diagnose them, order the parts, install the parts, test and ship. Also pay your rent and utility bills on your repair shop and benefits for employees. If you charge more than $15 for this service, it'll be uncompetitive with a new model.

Not that you can buy spare parts from HP or get a service manual. You can't.

And the customers will need to make two petrochemically fueled auto trips to your shop instead of one to the store to get a new one or zero trips to order a new one in via UPS.

Mark's right - the printer's break down before the cartridge runs out. He'd buy a better one if he could but he can't - they are all made out of cheap plastic in China. This is what outsourcing of manufacturing to the lowest bidder gets us -- products that fail and fill the landfills with mercury. Get used to it. More of the same is coming.

The only flaw with his analysis is that the ink cartridges in new printers are only 1/3 of the way filled to begin with. No if it doesn't break in 6 months, it might be slightly more economical to buy a cartridge set. I just got a new set myself - $34 each cartridge and 4 cartridges needed. $156 of ink for a $99 printer.

Dennis Atkins
Monday, January 19, 2004

You guys are only fooling yourselves and making yourselves appear lazy.  If that's the way you want people to see you then that is fine.

I have personally taken two printers to a local used computer shop that fixes them and sells them.  I received $50 dollars for them.

This is a reasonable way to prevent pollution.  Taking any other stance on the topic is showing that you are lazy and ignorant.

I'm not an extreme environmentalist, but I know for a fact that it is the right thing to do.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Boo hoo, now you've hurt my feelings. You're just upset because I can afford a printer and you're still trying to find a way to melt your Crayolas to refill your dot matrix.

And yes my comebacks are childish, if you expect me to take you seriously, why don't you try acting like an adult?

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

hahaha...

Mark, as I stated earlier, grow up, admit you can do better and do it.  To do otherwise is to prove yourself a fool.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Personally, I think everyone should mail any HP printer that breaks before three years is up to Carly.

Philo

Philo
Monday, January 19, 2004

" " The funny thing is, I'd be thanking you for letting me know that there are people who do this kind of thing if you didn't turn the discussion into an ego-driven fight.

There's a big difference between sharing information and really trying to improve society and being judgemental, calling everyone who doesn't do what you do immature.

Too bad you had to fall into the latter camp.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

Carly = http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/execteam/bios/fiorina.html

I love how every HP on the page is a mouseover that tells you HP means Hewlett Packard.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

That was a pathetic response Mark...  Why not just accept your responsibility and deal with it.


Monday, January 19, 2004

http://carcino.gen.nz/images/index.php/00b9a680/463c5922


Monday, January 19, 2004

Blah blah blah. Again, this isn't about me and what I do, it's about you and your need for me to reply to you, even if it is out of anger - especially if it is out of anger.

Otherwise you wouldn't be using the fallacy of the loaded question.

Lucky for you, I don't mind indulging this sort of trolling.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

lol.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

That says a lot about the intelligence of the poster who posted  the link to the ever over-used "Arguing on the Internet" BS.

There's right and there's wrong. 

Every decision you make has consequences and the chances are that you don't even realize the scope of those consequences.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Captalism is quite a good technology for certain problems, but the landfill fodder problem isn't one that capitalism can solve itself.  It's a simple fact that neither HP nor the buyer has to pay the full social cost of this product, nor will either choose to willingly most times.  I have an HP deskjunk sitting in a closet myself.  (I replaced it with a Canon that has lasted longer.)  I will eventually drag my ass and the HP out to the local recycling megaplex, and pay them $8 to either have it refurbished or demanufactured as the case warrants.  I'm frivilous with money that way, but I don't expect others to be.

The solution is quite simple, and the libertarians will throw a conniption over it.  The politicians also won't bother until it's rammed down their throats.  We need a deposit system on these toxic products, so that the real cost is payed up front, and the right thing to do becomes the economical thing to do.  Not to knock Mark, but if his $50 printer goes up to $60, he might be able to consider the toner cartridges more economical.  If he gets $10 for returning each broken printer or dropping it at a refurbishing/demanufacturing facility, he'll never consider the landfill.  Problem solved, and nobody is faced with the moral dilemma of protecting the environment or sending their kid to a state school.

veal
Monday, January 19, 2004

Cripes, I almost forgot about the original post.

$27 for a firewire cable?  Serves you right for shopping at CompUSA, sucker.  My local hardware store sells them for $15, and the local wonderland for geeks and electricians probably has even cheaper.  Never buy Belkin with their shitty overpriced garbage.

veal
Monday, January 19, 2004

I was being facetious when I said I did that.

As long as we're going down the route of what in reality we can do, you should also discuss refilling your ink cartridges. Also, a $10 return on my deposit isn't enough incentive for me to go down to the local supermarket and put my printer in the machine, though someone can build an industry around this. I remember reading about a homeless guy who built up a business around this (with bottles) and eventually employed a small fleet of trucks.

You're right though, this won't become an issue until it's an issue, so to speak. It won't enter the political arena until something has to be done NOW.

Say... There's a certain red planet that's delightfully free of plastics. To paraphrase Douglas Addams, Earth created Mankind because it didn't have Plastic.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

And why should you, or anyone else for that matter, need incentive to do the right thing?


Monday, January 19, 2004

You're that lazy that you won't even take your printer with you down to the supermarket when you go to buy groceries?  Tell me it's not so.  You would be getting $10 to do this.

Why would you NOT do this for $10? 


Monday, January 19, 2004

STFU you whiney mf.


Monday, January 19, 2004

Because it's a slow day at work, I wondered what the cost would be if one was to combine MarkTaw's ideas with veal's. A quick bit of googling to find a MER press kit, which gives an approx cost of the two lander mission at $800M, and a combined mass of the landers & rovers at around 1080kg. Now, if an average HP printer weighs in at around 3kg the cost to start the plastification of the red planet would be somewhat over $2M per unit, which could be loaded onto the purchase price as a end-of-life disposal cost.  This may have an impact on the HP share price.

Jamie
Monday, January 19, 2004

And the winner is... MarkTAW!!!

Dennis Atkins
Monday, January 19, 2004

Here's the problem, you want something in return for everything you do.  Very very poor way of thinking.  In fact you are so high strung that you can't be bothered to do a menial task.

If you lived in a house with an 80 year old neighbor and it snowed out and you saw him trying to shovel the snow from his drive and his sidewalk would you help him out or would you demand a reward for your services.  Chances are he would reward you for your services without you even asking but would you have the integrity to shovel the snow anyway without knowledge of the reward?


Monday, January 19, 2004

I'm definately not whining.  I present reasonable facts and  I make reasonable statements.  It is the selfishness of MarkTAW that I can't believe.  Even if he would be paid $10 to do a trivial task he wouldn't do it.  That is spoiled selfishness.


Monday, January 19, 2004

> Why would you NOT do this for $10?

That's easy. The nearest supermarket is well over 5 miles away and I don't own a car. Now, I'm all for getting exercise and taking public transportation, but not with 30 lbs of groceries. I just shop locally.

Heck, it would cost me $3 to get on the bus to claim my $10, so at the end of the day all I get is 2 roundtrip bus rides (at $1.50 a ride, I get something like 4-2/3 rides for $7).

And I wouldn't even get the smug satisfaction of being right, you seem to have cornered the market.

As far as *me* not doing the right thing, or society as a whole being lazy, that's just plain silly. We already know I'm a nice guy because I feed the trolls, and seem to expend considerable energy doing so. If society as a whole weren't lazy and cared about doing the right thing all the time we wouldn't be so damned fat or even have landfills in the first place.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

You're missing the point. Society as a whole DOES need some incentive for doing things. Look at recycling. First it was the nickel, and it was the people who valued nickels (homeless people) who did the recycling anyway.

Now we only recycle because (a) it's against the law not to and (b) it's rediculously easy - seperate your garbage like you do your laundry.

Also, as you can see, it wouldn't be trivial for me to go to the supermarket to recycle my printer, it would be at least an hour if not more and actually cost me money.

Sure, I propose a solution that may work society wide (i.e. build in an incentive to recycle) and you knock it down. Obviously your agenda isn't to save the environment, it's to continue arguing with me.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

Not my agenda at all Mark.

If you are going to the supermarket anyway, as I stated in my previous post, why would you not take your old printer along with you?  If a round trip bus ride to your supermarket costs $3 and you receive $10 for your printer you have $6 left correct?  Where do you lose?


Monday, January 19, 2004

And since we're arguing here, I'd contend that you were not "presenting reasonable facts and making reasonable statements." From the "you also throw away your dishes every meal" to the "Philo's given too much credit" your agenda has been clear. You were looking to pick a fight.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

I have $7, which means I made $7 that hour. Very exciting.

I had an HP printer that lasted me several years, I gave it way when I got a color printer, and it could be working to this day. If HP made printers that lasted to begin with, none of my printers would end up in a landfill.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

that should be "I gave it away"

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

Great. We agree, if there were a built in incentive everyone would recycle.

www.MarkTAW.com
Monday, January 19, 2004

This is a great flame war. Blank, please let us know if you take the bus and bicycle to work like marktaw does, or if you drive your 1964 Volkswagen bus while looking for a gas station that still carries leaded gasoline.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

44 replies and only one (thanks, veal) has anything to do with the topic.

Is that a record?

No, probably not.



is it just me, or does anybody else print everything they can at the office?

Jason
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

I have to admit my recent experience recycling computer equipment makes me wonder about the economics of it.

One of my poor old CRTs finally gave up the ghost so I looked up the nearest recycling facility, drove about half an hour to get there, and dropped off the monitor. I then *paid them* about $15 to have them take it off my hands, after which I got back in the car and drove the half hour back.

What did this recycling cost me? In addition to the $15 out-of-pocket cost, it was an hour of time that I couldn't bill to a client, plus whatever automobile costs I incurred and pollutants I injected into the atmosphere while driving (though I do drive a clean-burning, moderately-high-gas-mileage compact car). And while I prefer not to pollute unnecessarily, I really had to wonder if the costs of doing the recycling were less in the end than the costs of just throwing it in the trash.

As for no-name's suggestion that supermarkets could accept equipment returns for $10, I'm also not sure I'd find that particularly convenient, given that I almost always walk to the store. And I'm not personally macho enough to want to carry a decrepit 19-inch CRT half a mile. I do suppose that driving someplace I was going to go anyway and getting paid to recycle would be better than driving someplace out of the way and paying to recycle, which today is my only alternative to putting something in the trash.

John C.
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

Yes Mark it would be more convenient for people to recycle if they would receive a reward for it.  Like aluminum cans.

Here's what I'm getting at:

Even if you have to pay to have something recycled it is still worth the cost and the effort in order to preserve the environment.  Once again, I'll state that I am not an extreme environmentalist, but if there is a better way then that way should be utilized by those that can.

If you don't feel this way that is fine, this is America and throwing away a printer is not against the law.  OTOH I  would have to consider you lazy, ignorant and perhaps "cheap" for doing such a thing.  Lazy because it's not that much work and ignorant because you're thinking that "I'm only throwing away one printer." well what about all the other printers that get thrown away.  "Cheap" is obvious.  I don't mind spending $15 dollars to help save the environment.  You on the other hand might have a problem with it.  I don't see why you would have a problem with helping to save the environment.  Money and making money aren't everything.  But as I said earlier it is your decision not mine.  You may do as you please, but I believe that it would be wise of you think of the consequences of you actions.  Please note that I'm not "telling you what to do", I'm just saying, If you have a chance to do right why not do it?  A hypothetical question.  No need to reply.  I won't read this thread any longer.  Just something to think about.


Tuesday, January 20, 2004

Blank, take a look around sometime.  Vast swaths of humanity don't give a rats ass about *your* environment.  Here in the the US where I live, especially in the decrepit lands of Suburbia, the environment most people live in is a mass-produced house, sheathed in vinyl, filled with plastic-laminated and/or poly-coated furniture, on plastic floors (carpet or a plastic-coated photograph of wood called Pergo), enclosed by painted walls housing a few windows half-covered with polyester.  They move from that *environment* through the mass-produced plastic car interior (garage-parked) into a dreary sealed-window office with electronic white-noise generators, perhaps (if they have enough money) back into the car to a hideous chain restaurant for a hideous lunch of some butchered rotting carcass or another of some kind of animal they'd never personally touched, back into the car, the office, the car again, and finally back to the plastic house.

You'll find nary a tree, mountain, lake, or critter cross their paths but (perhaps) for 10 days of 365, unless they see it on TV, which hardly qualifies.  What care they for invisible poisons (of which they're wholly unaware) in vast landfills they never see?

Blank, I'm blathering on because you need to know you're a marginal character.  Welcome.  I'm as marginal as they come.  If you want to have any impact on people, you need to know what motivates them, not what moves you.  I suggest reading Dale Carnegie, getting to know some other humans in human terms -- shit, you can't even be troubled to pick a pseudonym -- and rethinking your approach.  You can't shame people into behaving the way you want them to behave.  Frankly, nobody cares what you want.  Keep these passions, but learn how to direct them kiddo.

veal
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

European Union will start charging the manufacturers for the recycling costs. Maybe this is the right way to go.

coresi
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

I just threw out an old printer and a broken scanner.  I did ponder the thought of going to a recycling center but then reminded myself of the "environmentalists" in California who torched the Hummer dealership. 
They burnt a large number of Hummers to the ground releasing more toxins in the air than the vehicle would produce in thier life time.  I then thought, well if the tree huggers over there think it ok, screw it and dumped them in the can.

George Carlin on saving the planet:
http://lists.spack.org/pipermail/wordup/2002/000349.html

apw
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

Blank, regardless of the factual basis for your argument, it remains that you're judgemental and insulting, and yes continuing to use the fallacy of the loaded question (have you stopped beating your wife?).

Again I'll say that your interest is not in saving the environment, but in starting an argument (i.e. trolling).

We both agree that recycling is a good idea. We both agree that if there was an incentive built in to recycling, more people would do it.

What we don't agree on is which one of us is being a jerk, and since that's completely subjective, it's not worth arguing, but can be a fun way to spend a few hours on the internet.

www.MarkTAW.com
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

apw-

Do you always base your actions on those of the dumbest people who disagree with you?

Devil's Advocate
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

I have at long last succeeded in refilling HP printer cartridges. On average you can fill a black cartridge four or five times, before the quality declines.

With Epsons you buy compatible cartridges to start with.

Incidentally I have owned three HP deskjets. The first one, an HP 670J, broke down after a few months and was replaced with a new one free of charge the next day. The second one was a HP695J bought in 1998; I replaced it a few months ago when I bought an HP5550 to ship to Lanka, and then found it wouldn't fit in the box. The 695J is sitting in the bedroom cupboard, but I'll probably tqke it to work next year just to have some color.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, January 20, 2004

Many of the el-cheapo inkjet printers come from the shop with color cartridges that are not full - they can sell the damn things cheaper if there's not all that much ink in them.

So if you buy new cartridges, they may last a lot longer than the original. And, if you would instead dump the whole printer you'll end up with half-filled cartridges again which won't last as long.

I dunno which all printers are like this, but I understand HP does it and Epson as well. Me, I bought a LaserJet maybe 7 years ago, have bought two color cartridges for it and still rockin'. Ink-stuff is expensive if you print more than a few pages a month.

Oh, and the cable prices stink, too ;-)

Antti Kurenniemi
Wednesday, January 21, 2004

I think the problem is that people buy cheap printers. I don't know what the printer market is like in the States but here in the UK, HP printers range from about £50 upwards ($80) as far as I know. I assume other manufacturers are the same but frankly, I don't really know!

Two years ago I spent £150 ($250ish) on an HP Photosmart 1115. It's been superb. It is still sitting here next to me on my desk, working as well as it did the day I bought it. I'm a fairly heavy volume printer as I run my own business so I've had to replace the ink cartridges a few times (which admittedly are fairly expensive). I've kept clear of recycled / refilled cartridges as I don't want to risk upsetting my printer (potentially damaging it). For the smalll savings it's not worth the risk.

Other printers I have in my office include an HP Laserjet 4L from years and years ago which was very expensive at the time, and still works today. It's a bit slow but it prints just great. I also have an HP LaserJet 2100TN from about 4 years ago which is working great. All of these are shared across a network for multiple users.

Recently I bought another Photosmart - a 2510. It wasn't cheap. In fact it was expensive at about £250 ($350). But I know that in 5 years I will still have that printer. It won't have broken down. Quality will be the same as it is today. It's clearly uneconomical to replace it as a pair of cartridges costs me about £40 from memory (cost is similar on my other Photosmart). Quality is superb and some of the features (specifically to do with it's ability to link to digital cameras) are, IMO, revolutionary.

If only everyone would buy better printers in the first place (and clearly this is partly the fault of HP & co for pricing them so low in the first place), there would be no need to worry about recycling them as everyone's printers would last far longer. The whole attitude of 'cartridges have run out, let's buy a new printer' would be gone.

And just for the recycling advocates here, I have a box full of old ink cartridges in the corner which one of these days I will get around to sending off to one of the printer cartridge recycling places! The point is that the payback is minimal (I think I make a pound or two per cartridge) but the cost is minimal too. The postage is free on the parcel, and all I have to do is drop it in at the post office (which conveniently is a 5 minute walk away). I can be there and back in 10 minutes and have made say £20 as my box of cartridges is looking pretty full. I've been saving them for ages. I wouldn't want to know if it was an hour round trip on public transport that was out of my normal route.

James Ussher-Smith
Saturday, January 24, 2004

And on the original topic!...

I agree...I was given a second DVD player for my birthday recently by a family member. I think it was Philips - not a cheap make. It didn't come with a cable in the box to link it to my TV. I had to go to the local electrical wholesalers where the scart lead was about £5 if I remember correctly. Not much, but had I gone to a retailers like PC World it would probably have been £20.

This is just the laws of economics speaking here. If enough people are willing to buy it at £20, then that's what it will cost. It will not change until consumers wise up to the fact that they are paying over the odds.

James Ussher-Smith
Saturday, January 24, 2004

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