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H1B: I am facing doom?

Say, i Heard that the annual cap has been reduced to 65000.

My employer told me to file my H1B fast (for a new visa). I was earlier on a student visa here. The cap makes me nervous. 65000 seems a low number. If i am rejected, then i am doomed as a i need to pay off my student loan still.

What are the chances of me getting rejected if i file my H1B visa now?

Need Some reassurance
Monday, January 05, 2004

Im not in the USA and am completely unfamiliar with the US Visa program, but wouldn't you have a pretty good chance of getting it if you are already in the country on another type of visa? (As compared to the chances of somebody who isn't even in the country yet and is applying?)

Here in Australia, most people on Student visas are automatically given a full visa once they have completed university and some work experience. (I think)

ChrisO
Monday, January 05, 2004

You've come to a dangerous place to ask that question.  Many people here think you are an evil person working for an evil corporation who takes away American jobs.

Anyway, the quota is 65000 but that lasts from October of one year to the end of September the following year.  Last year only about 75000 were issued, despite the 195000 quota at the time.  This is only January, so there are still many visas left.

--
Monday, January 05, 2004

-,

I was going to add something about the fact that "Oh and by the way, nobody else will really care if you don't get your Visa". But as I said I am not familiar enough with the real politics to wage in on the debate that far.

ChrisO
Monday, January 05, 2004

Say...when you got the student visa at the US consulate abroad did you not have to convince the US consular officer that you intend to return to your country of origin after your studies are complete?  If you did so and now you are seeking a employment visa does it not mean that you lied? And now you are worried about facing doom?

BTW here is the relevant section from a US consulate website to refresh your memory

"Just as with visitors, Section 214(b) requires students to show that they intend to leave the U.S. after they finish their studies. An I-20 is one of several documents that allow you to apply for a student visa, but cannot guarantee your eligibility. Students may be ineligible if it appears that their primary purpose is not to obtain an education that will advance their life in India, but will facilitate an indefinite stay in the U.S. for themselves or their family"

Code Monkey
Monday, January 05, 2004

Hehe, such venom...

It goes without saying you should seek advice from a qualified legal ractitioner.

I know this is the exception rather than the norm, but there are a lot of really high paying jobs abroad for folks: 1) who studied in the states in a decent state/private school; 2) who went out of their way to sign up for H1B to get a few years experience; 3) who knows enough english to be dangerous at the pre-sale/negotiating table but remember enough of their mother language to click well with the cliques; and 4) who is really really hard working. and  I don't know what you study, but that is the case with most respectable high tech jobs in most of far east / south east asia.

I have new immigrant friends with full citizenships in Canada and USA who aren't doing much more than "barely" paying off the tuition, I am more of the opinion that it's not the H1B that makes the man, it's what you can do for yourself. Neither H1B nor green card will take you all the way to the money bag. Having said that, if you have a love interest in the States, family, or want to make North America your home then please talk to a qualified immigration lawyer.

Li-fan Chen
Monday, January 05, 2004

Code Monkey,

<facilitate an indefinite stay in the U.S. for themselves >

I only plan to stay this year and probably half of next. Not here for ever. Thats for sure. And i did not have to talk to the consular about anything

Need Some reassurance
Monday, January 05, 2004

And of course, it's always possible that someone might come to the US to get an education with every intention of returning to their home country, and then decide after 4 or 6 or n years getting a degree or two that they'd like to stay. It's called changing one's mind.

Disclaimer: I'm a foreigner here, myself, although I'll be (happily) leaving the US again shortly.

Mongo
Monday, January 05, 2004

If what Code Monkey says is true, I think you should completely disregard my comments. Obviously the USA doesn't want their educated visitors to stay?

ChrisO
Monday, January 05, 2004

"If what Code Monkey says is true, I think you should completely disregard my comments. Obviously the USA doesn't want their educated visitors to stay? "

I'm no visa expert but of course that's a ridiculous conclusion to draw.  I think you simply apply for a different visa in that case.

In fact, I think you'll find a lot of Americans who are a little annoyed that we educate so many people to send them home to enrich or arm their own countries based on American intellectual capital.  But this of course has a flip side: people with some knowledge tend not to wallow around in mud-brick dwellings and caves forever, and that seems to help their mood wrt wanting to fly airplanes into skyscrapers or the like.  So it's a mixed bag.

Robert
Monday, January 05, 2004

OTOH, if they stay in the US after graduation, people complain that they are taking American jobs.

T. Norman
Monday, January 05, 2004

<<In fact, I think you'll find a lot of Americans who are a little annoyed that we educate so many people to send them home to enrich or arm their own countries based on American intellectual capital>>

I dont study for free. I paid. 

Need Some reassurance
Monday, January 05, 2004

I am an american and I am happy to have smart, talented foriegners come to the US to be educated. If they stay, i'm sure they create more jobs than they take up.

pdq
Monday, January 05, 2004

US universities love foreign students, because the average ones have to pay more, and often have to pay up front. The foreign students who DONT have to pay more / up front are usually the cream of the crop.

|
Monday, January 05, 2004

As far as I know you can't file for H1B, someone who makes an offer do... or it is changed now?

WildTiger
Monday, January 05, 2004

I think its a moot point as most employers now hire L1's not H1's

The Artist Formerly Known as Prince
Monday, January 05, 2004

"And of course, it's always possible that someone might come to the US to get an education with every intention of returning to their home country, and then decide after 4 or 6 or n years getting a degree or two that they'd like to stay. It's called changing one's mind."

I agree.  It's actually rather stupid to even have someone sign such a unenforceable statement.  I recall having to sign some similar statement (it was for either my student loan or for my scholarship, I don't recall which) that said I "intended" to make the state of Michigan my domicile after graduation.  The fact that I did actually remain in Michigan is inconsequential.  If I hadn't found a job here, my "intention" would have undoubtedly changed and there's nothing that the state of Michigan could have done about it because intent is really difficult to prove and easily changed when new obstacles or opportunities come into play.  I think you have to sign some similar statement saying that you intend to return to the United States when you get a U.S. passport.  Yet, if you did a survey of American expatriates living abroad I bet you'd find that the vast majority of them left the country with a valid U.S. passport.

Matt Latourette
Monday, January 05, 2004

"I think you have to sign some similar statement saying that you intend to return to the United States when you get a U.S. passport.  "

Don't think so--the US doesn't really care where you live, so long as you pay your taxes.

OTOH, it (like many other countries) does care if you change your mind on a visa application--you applied for a tourist visa, then 'changed your mind' mid stream? Sorry, you have to go home, then apply there. Already being in country is not necessarily an advantage, and overstaying your first visa is generally a big disadvantage.

mb
Monday, January 05, 2004

The point is that one gets a student visa based on certain assumptions...one of which is that  you will return to the Home country after studies are done.

After that if you want to be employed in USA (and why not?) you  should have an employer sponsor an a H1B visa which you need to get stamped at the consulate in your home country to which you have returned after completion of your studies. 

The fact that everyone does it or that it is OK to misrepresent facts just because nobody cares or the fact that you are now educated and useful to the US economy does not mean it is right to do so and I would think that studying in USA would atleast let you develop that udnerstanding.

Code Monkey
Monday, January 05, 2004

As long as you have to pay the same taxes I have to and obey the same laws I have to, I could care less if your from Jupiter...

GuyIncognito
Monday, January 05, 2004

"I think its a moot point as most employers now hire L1's not H1's"

L visas are inter-company transfer visas, usable only to transfer employees from one national branch to another.

CodeMonkey, the requirement that you intend to return to your home country after your visa expires is a requirement that you not attempt to stay without a visa.  Likewise, an H-1B requires you to have the intent to leave the US after your visa expires.  That rule says nothing about getting extensions, other visas or applying for a green card.  You may dislike the politics of it, but the OP has not suggested doing anything illegal or contrary to the spirit of the regulations governing visas.

The H-1B cap has decreased from 195,000 to 65,000, where it was before, but it's doubtful that the cap will be reached for a couple reasons: the economic downturn has slowed hiring of specialists (H-1Bs aren't just for tech workers); tighter restrictions and lengthier processing make the H-1B more troublesome for employers to use to find qualified labor; special registration rules for muslim countries add extra processing burdens that make visa holders from those countries extremely difficult to employ; and finally, the bureaucratic war between the Department of State and the USCIS (née the INS) means that a lot of arbitrary and silly regulations are being employed on both sides to make the process so Kafka-esque that many applicants either give up in frustration, or are arbitrarily rejected at some point along the way.

The OP's employer is not required to file the H-1B application, only to sign documents verifying that they are sponsoring the OP for the visa, that the job is real and normal, and that they're paying the prevailing wage to the visa holder.

BTW, it's a common misconception that H-1Bs are a source of cheap labor.  On average, the labor cost is increased once filing and lawyers fees are included, and special accomodations like travel time and such are included.

[For the last five years I handled immigration issues at my employer]

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

The 65k cap won't be reached, there's no chance you'll me turned down because of a shortage of visas. The cap numbers approved by congress simply track demand as presented to them by industry.

On the unrelated subject of students wanting to stay, if you want to switch visa categories, you have to return to your home country and reapply from there, and wait for approval. No priority is given to those already in the country, on the contrary, if you overstay your visa even a day now, you will be put on the watch list and banned from entering the US for a time.

Tony Chang
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Justin, there has been extensive coverage of the way L1 visas are being abused to import programmers. There also has been documentation of the average lower salaries of H1B's.


Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Well you could try and find some useful info at :

http://www.immigration.com/

Am not sure if you'll exactly find what you need..... but still its worth a try....

Best of luck !

Shai
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Indeed the L1s are being abused.  L1s are supposed to be for transferring senior managers and other key personnel like research scientists, but now they are being frequently used to bring inexperienced coders.

But I've worked with many H1B people over the years and I definitely don't see any evidence that they were underpaid.  The abuse and underpayment is generally restricted to the Indian bodyshoppers who only hire Indians, not the Intels and Microsofts and other Fortune 500 companies who hire H1Bs as a tiny percentage of their workforce.

T. Norman
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"Justin, there has been extensive coverage of the way L1 visas are being abused to import programmers. There also has been documentation of the average lower salaries of H1B's."

I can't speak to the abuse of L visas--my employer never did.  Regarding H-1B salaries, though, on a dollar per dollar salary basis, perhaps they are underpaid.  But employers count the total costs of employing someone, including benefits and administrative costs, which typically runs 30-50% over salary for any employee in the U.S.  On that score, H-1Bs average out to more than local employees, overall, because of additional costs on top of that figure.  I speak from both my own employer's experience and the experience of the immigration law firm that we use.

"On the unrelated subject of students wanting to stay, if you want to switch visa categories, you have to return to your home country and reapply from there, and wait for approval. No priority is given to those already in the country, on the contrary, if you overstay your visa even a day now, you will be put on the watch list and banned from entering the US for a time."

Not necessarily: if you're here on an F1 student visa, and you graduate, you're given work authorization under OPT (optional practical training), which allows you to stay and work for 12 months at any place that will hire you.  If, in that time, you find an employer willing to sponsor you for an H-1B, you can file for a conversion from F-1 (OPT) to H-1B without leaving the country; however, on applying for your first extension, you may have to return to your home country to apply if you were converted and are from a special registration country.

It's not that you might be given priority by applying from within the country; but if you do, you can apply through offices that are less backed up, which may speed processing time, and you can avoid re-applying for the visa stamp that allows ingress to the country, which also shortens the application time.

However, take this all with a grain of salt: the number and degree of changes to immigration regulations and administration in the last two years is huge, and subject to a lot of bureaucratic whimsy and departmental infighting.  The USCIS has been re-organized several times, and they've been instructed to Congress to follow every regulation they have on the books while implementing new ones (when they didn't have the staff or budget before 9/11 to do so, and they've received no increases in either).  Anything you think you know today might be different tomorrow.  Loopholes are being closed and new ones opened.  It's a great big mess that's far from being straightened out.

----------
At this point, I feel like I should offer a disclaimer: this was part of my job for the last five years, so I'm speaking from experience; however, I'm not an immigration attorney or specialist, and anything I say here should be verified by one if you're actually going to do anything based on it.
----------

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Justin you wrote:

>CodeMonkey, the requirement that you intend to return to your home country after your visa expires is a requirement that you not attempt to stay without a visa. 
>Likewise, an H-1B requires you to have the intent to leave the US after your visa expires. 

To nitpick one has to return to the home country *before* the visa expires and the regulations do say that for student visa  (and tourist visas) you have to demonstrate to the satisfaction of the consular office that you intend to return back to your home country. The same is not true for H1B's...there is no rule or regulation except that as a general rule you have to return within 6 years if you have not gotten your Green card by then.

Do you really believe that people who swear to the consular officer that they will return back after their studies are over changed their mind after they got the visa?

>That rule says nothing about getting extensions, other visas or applying for a green card.  You may dislike the politics of it, but the OP has not suggested doing anything illegal or contrary to the spirit of the regulations governing visas"

I understand that he is not doing anything illegal as such.  But he is definetely violating the spirit of the understanding based on which he was granted a student visa.

One of the reasons America is a great country is for most practical purposes it is ruled by law and most people follow the laws  even if they dislike them and if they dislike them a lot they actively work towards changing the law rather than breaking it or atleast by not whining when they are penalized for breaking it.

I have seen the H1 hiring process myself and it is a joke...a company has to  certify that no equivalent American employee can be hired and some are wont to do that by doing things  like placing an ad for programmers in some obsure beauty magazine and then saying they did not get any responses.

I have no problems with anybody hiring qualified talent from anywhere in the world....just that make it legal, proper and have a level playing field for everybody so that everyone can compete on a equal basis.

Code Monkey
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"I understand that he is not doing anything illegal as such.  But he is definetely violating the spirit of the understanding based on which he was granted a student visa."

No, he isn't violating the spirit of the understanding of the purpose of the student visa.  There is no understanding that a student won't stay if he can legally obtain a different visa.  The whole thing about swearing to the consular officer that he'll be leaving the country afterwards is him saying that he'll leave at the end of his permission to be in the country.  There are specific regulations for various situations that may require leaving the country to re-apply, but there's no general understanding that you have to leave the country to apply for a different visa; in fact, there are specific regulations permitting one to stay in some situations, conversion of F to H status being one of them.

If the OP is asked by a consular officer or border guard "what are you going to do when this expires?" and he says "hopefully I'll have a green card by then", the official's discretionary reason for refusing entry to that person is the suspicion that they'll stay illegally in the U.S. after their visa expires. 

Part of the problem here between your and my understanding may be that there's a lot of overlapping regulations that are contradictory, and for which the USCIS periodically issues 'rulings' clarifying things.  I do know that my employer has hired F1s on their OPT, and converted them to H1s before their OPT expired, with no problems--there's even a specific application for converting done in the U.S., rather than filing a new application through a consular office.

"I have seen the H1 hiring process myself and it is a joke...a company has to  certify that no equivalent American employee can be hired and some are wont to do that by doing things  like placing an ad for programmers in some obsure beauty magazine and then saying they did not get any responses."

The H1 process does not require certifying that there's no American to do the same job--that's for green cards via labor certification, and it's an excruciately long process designed to foil exactly what you're talking about.  For an H-1B, the company only has to certify that it's paying the prevailing wage for the job.

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"I have no problems with anybody hiring qualified talent from anywhere in the world....just that make it legal, proper and have a level playing field for everybody so that everyone can compete on a equal basis."

In what sense is it unequal between an Indian on an H-1B and an American?  H-1Bs are more expensive to employ overall, impose greater adminstrative and management burdens on the employer, and have their own education and work experience indexed downwards from Americans (e.g., according to the USCIS, an MSCS from Hyderabad U. is equal to a BSCS from an American college).

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

At a previous company I saw a manager abuse the H1 system. He would preferentially hire H1s at a moderatly low rate. The real abuse was that he knew that no matter how he treated them, these employees couldn't quit without leaving the country. He would demand insane hours and personal loyalty. Eg. if someone got transferred to a different project, he would have them work on his project after hours, on the sly.

It makes me mad even thinking about it now.

pdq
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

H1B visa holders are rife for abuse.  I've seen it secondhand.  The problem is that it's awfully hard to fix them without making new ways to abuse the system.  The same goes for L1 visas.

And, of course, if L1 and H1 visas are too hard to deal with, they just outsource.  So it's doom all around.

*sigh*  If I had my way, I'd eliminate most of the temporary work visas altogether because they all have too much potential for abuse or corruption.  I mean, even little stuff like visitor visas can get pretty arbitrary and capricious.  If you want somebody in the country bad, you should sponsor them for a green card and be done with it. 

I would, of course, keep educational visas because that's a great way to really screw with the way things work in other countries.  ;) 

But that's my rant.

Flamebait Sr.
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Justin:

The DOL webpage http://www.dol.gov/esa/regs/compliance/whd/whdfs42.htm itself has this snippet :

    *  The non-displacement provisions generally prohibit these employers from replacing U.S. workers with H-1B workers, and from placing H-1B workers at other employers’ work sites where U.S. workers have been displaced; and,
    * The recruitment provision requires these employers to make good faith efforts to hire qualified U.S. workers before hiring H-1B workers and to hire U.S. workers if they are at least as qualified as the H-1B workers they intend to employ (this latter provision is administered by the Department of Justice).

As you can see in the second bullet it is incumbent on the employer who wants to hire a H1B worker to make a good faith effort to hire qualified US workers before hiring H1B workers.

Once again this regulation is breached more often than not. It is not just that they must offer prevailing wage like you seem to suggest. Now one could argue what constitutes "good faith" and I agree it is a gray area and hence my statement that it violates the spirit if not the actual letter of the law.

Code Monkey
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Flamebair Sr wrote:

"If I had my way, I'd eliminate most of the temporary work visas altogether because they all have too much potential for abuse or corruption"

I agree partially. I for one think we should abolish the whole H1B system. If an employer wants to hire a non-american citizen they should pay one time $25k to the govt...the person who comes in gets a green card immediately and can work indefinitely.

This means that the company really thinks the person is valuable to go to this expense to get him/her and hence they will make proper good faith effort to hire qualified American citizens to avoid this overhead.

The govt can use this money to retrain American citizens, to offer scholarships to American students to study engineering and the person who comes will not get abused or taken advantage of. Less bureacracy. A win win for everyone.....except the govt employees hired to administer the current H1B program!

They could even outsource the management of this program :-)

Code Monkey
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"Once again this regulation is breached more often than not. It is not just that they must offer prevailing wage like you seem to suggest. Now one could argue what constitutes "good faith" and I agree it is a gray area and hence my statement that it violates the spirit if not the actual letter of the law."

Aside from obvious abuse situations like the poster above mentions (insane hours, extreme loyalty, etc.), the only regulation in fact is that a certification of labor and wage must be submitted by fax to an automated line--meaning no human at the USCIS ever looks at it.  The regulations you quote are still unenforced for H-1Bs, and are only good under threat of a USCIS audit.  In effect, for H-1Bs, they're like unenforced laws in your town.

But against that, you have a situation where it's usually in the employer's interest to hire Americans over H-1Bs, unless they're going to engage in outright abuse of their employees anyway, in which case they're ignoring both the spirit and the letter of the law, and if they were audited (which almost never happens) would be in huge trouble.  In other words, the employers abusing the H-1B situation pretty much already have criminal labor practices to start with, and would be screwing Americans workers just as hard if they didn't have visa holders lining up for it.

I'll agree with anyone that the whole immigration bureaucracy is in need of reform and better management.  But it's largely a myth that cheap H-1Bs are flooding the U.S. market and stealing good American jobs.

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Code Monkey, you are making a huge assumption that people need to be retrained and that jobs will be displaced.

My whole point, which you have expounded upon, is that if a company needs somebody that bad, they should be willing to get the person a green card.  Getting somebody a green card is already expensive and troublesome, which will make the economics favor the existing residents over importing new folks.

As a caucasian who was born in America, if a good ole' American doesn't have the wherewithall to get a good education through the moras of possibilities that is currently offered to them, screw 'em.

Flamebait Sr.
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Code Monkey, my understanding is that there is no punishment for violating the provisions and there is no proscription in low to either check or enforce the requirements. Thus the requirements have, by design, been castrated. The language is there to placate the voters while being functional enough to do the opposite of what it seems in practice. A lot of laws (most?) are like that, having two sides, a public facing side, and a functional side that is unrelated.

This is why:

"Every 20 years is time for a revolution."

and

"From time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

both by Jefferson.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Don't wory too much, Dennis...

I think that us nerds, engineers, geeks, and whatnot, if things went totally down the toilet, would do better than the factory workers (Smash a honda in the middle of Detroit, anybody?) or the Nigerians (various creative fraud tactics after the Oil money started to run low).

The best part is, the restrictions on personal weaponry that the militant NRA folks have been going on about aren't going to hurt the geek revolution.  We'll be armed a la Junkyard Wars!

The sad thing is, I'm only half joking...

Flamebait Sr.
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Flamebait Sr wrote:

>Code Monkey, you are making a huge assumption that >people need to be retrained and that jobs will be displaced.

People need to be retrained all the time.....and jobs *will* be displaced due to outsourcing. It is just that we should make it easy for Americans to think of Engineering as an attractive and paying career...I would rather have the govt spend money to create more Engineers than have a bunch of more lawyers :-)

For some more hard data about H1B and its implications see :
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/408239.cms

>As a caucasian who was born in America, if a good ole' >American doesn't have the wherewithall to get a good >education through the moras of possibilities that is >currently offered to them, screw 'em.

Well it is the govt's job to increase the universe of possibilities for its citizens to make sure that good education is not only affordable but attractive.

On one hand in India they are thinking of offering top class graduate and post graduate Management and Engineering education for $120 a year!  http://www.telegraphindia.com/1040106/asp/nation/story_2756238.asp
and here in America even public universities are  not affordable with people forced into many years of student loan debts

Code Monkey
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"I would think that studying in USA would atleast let you develop that udnerstanding. "

GIVE ME A BIG FUCKING BREAK, WILL YA?

Cosmo Kramer
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Dennis said:

>Every 20 years is time for a revolution."

Except this time the revolution will be outsourced :-)

>"From time to time the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants."

We regret to inform you that the tree of liberty will be no longer be made available for such purposes and jefferson would be an "enemy combatant" today :-)

Code Monkey
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Sites like zazona have extensive documentation of the lower rates paid, on average, to H1B's. The legal administrative work for typical H1B's is routine and adds very little to the cost for an employer.

The net effect is that, on average, H1B's represent a way to reduce labour costs.


Tuesday, January 06, 2004

"The legal administrative work for typical H1B's is routine and adds very little to the cost for an employer."

There's a little more to it than that.  There's the legal costs.  There's extra travel arrangements made to accomodate out-of-country processing times.  There's extra times off to accomodate legal requirements for holding a visa.  It all adds up to H-1Bs being, at best, no more expensive than regular employees in most cases.

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Let me put it this way, and then I'll quit harping on it:

My employer made extensive (and non-abusive) use of the H-1B visa for several years, and it did solve a staffing problem for a while.  But if I were to go to another management position at a different company, and someone brought up H-1Bs (or other visas) as any kind of solution to labor costs or staffing, I would strongly recommend against it as no real benefit, and a lot of potential headaches (for example, several Indonesian employees have been stuck out of the country for 2-4 months at a time getting travel documents renewed due to heightened security regulations in processing).  Besides that, you either commit yourself to getting a green card for that employee, which is a lot more expensive and a lot more work, or face losing an experienced employee after six years.  It's one of those things that looks good on paper, and doesn't work out in practice for the most part.

Why do you think that no one seriously fought the reversion in the H-1B cap from 195,000 back to 65,000?

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Justin, industry did actually make a run at stopping the lowering of the cap, but even they couldn't seriously claim there is still a desperate shortage of programmers.

Congressmen will support things they can get away with, but they would have looked pretty stupid supporting a continuation of the high cap.


Tuesday, January 06, 2004

*must quit harping on it... resist temptation... sounding like broken record...*

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

> Besides that, you ....face losing an experienced employee after six years.

What moot hogwash.  State the percentage of non-H1 programmers you know who have been at their current client/employer fo over 6 years.  The estimate from my own personal network of 50 programmers?  I say 10%.

Bella
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Okay, one last point to make: the H-1B is not limited to IT workers.  It's a specialist visa, open to anyone with specialized knowledge--my employer used it to hire a skilled and educated injection molding technician, for example.  A degree in commerce isn't sufficient; a degree in industrial engineering is.

The high turnover rates of the dot-com era aren't indicative of, at the very least, a large portion of the H-1Bs issued since it was created.  Our own concerns as IT workers tend to obscure that fact, and the fact that in most other fields, an employee with six years of experience in her field is a valuable asset to be retained.

Justin Johnson
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Code Monkey,

Ha! Good one on the revolution will be outsourced. Its sort of true don't you know - tire the public of a desire to revolt against washington by keeping them perpetually occupied in foreign lands until they are too tired of fighting and disgusted by war for a revolution.

Regarding Jefferson, an enemy combatant he certainly was! Let's not forget that he was a 'revolutionary'. That's just another word for terrorist nowadays.

Dennis Atkins
Tuesday, January 06, 2004

Justin, why do you presume we aren't aware of what H1B is? I am well aware of what it is and what it's used for.

If you examine annual statistics, you will clearly see that programmers constitute the majority, and that there was a very sudden jump around 1997 when that occurred. There are other interesting patterns, such as the preponderance of Indians.


Wednesday, January 07, 2004

Well Mr. Presumably Doomed ....... i would suggest you not to get involved in this discussion on what H1's are doing in the US and what they are getting paid...... but rather suggest you to focus on what is happening around the "world".

And by world i mean the "real global view of the word world" and not the american defination of "World = US".

Take a look at various news items... a representative sample is as below :

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-407043,curpg-1.cms

After going thru these, decide if you just wanna be in the US for the "money sake" or want to be "where the action is".

Shai
Wednesday, January 07, 2004

"Justin, why do you presume we aren't aware of what H1B is? I am well aware of what it is and what it's used for. "

Everyone here knows generally, yes, but there's a lot of misinformation and misperceptions about them that fuel a certain hysteria about them that I'd like to fight.  I suspect that the same hysteria is being generated now about outsourcing, which is potentially a big problem, but not the certain doom some here think it is.

Justin Johnson
Wednesday, January 07, 2004

the h1-b cap will be hit this week.

some of these ppl have no idea what they are talking about

good luck

capped worker
Sunday, February 15, 2004

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