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Developers in Suits and Ties

Would you ever accept a job offer from a company that forced you to wear a suit and tie?  I think I'd have to be very desperate.  If you're going to force developers to wear suits and ties, you might just as well force them to wear nametags and paper hats with hairnets.  Is it just me?

anon
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I have no problem with wearing a suit and tie at work, if that's what they require. To me that's irrelevant - what is is important is that the work in interesting, that I'm working with fun people and that I get at least reasonably well paid.

And yes, I've had a development job in the past where a tie was required. To be honest, I actually think it was better than casual-anything-goes dress codes, since business attire can be like a uniform to help put you in the right mindset.

Burninator
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I'd make them wear hats too. Not crappy ballcaps, but a respectable hat like Kevin Costner wore in "The Untouchables."

Andy in Austin
Thursday, August 28, 2003

No problem with suit and tie because I get to enjoy more the casual Fridays ;-)

Dino
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I'm actually opposed to this.  If the men have to wear suits and ties, the women will have to dress comparably (meaning skirts, heels, etc).  It is very uncomfortable to code all day in a skirt.  Just my 2 cents :)

shiggins
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Yes, I'm feeding the troll.

As usual, it depends on the circumstances. If the developer is in full view of the client (as an on-site consultant), a suit and tie may well be necessary to project the desired image of professionalism to the client. Whether you would take that job or not is a matter of taste, I suppose, but depending on the context and pay scale, I certainly would.

I prefer jobs that where I can wear jeans and t-shirts (or at least buisness casual) to work. Usually, these are positions where I never see customers, but not always.

A suit and tie alone is not a useful factor for determining the attitudes of a prospective employer. You need to look at the context of the suit and tie, not just the clothing. Doing contract work at a customer site on wall street probably points to a suit and tie being the way to convince your customer of your professionalism. On the other hand in a sawmill (where I have done R&D work) you'll find that a corporate logo t-shirt and jeans with some good steel toe boots and hearing protection are pretty much a requirement. It's all about the context.

Analyze the context of any employer dress codes before you decide whether or not it's a problem.

Michael Kohne
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I've worked in all kind of places with all kinds of dress codes.

To me, it really makes little difference but wearing a tie everyday isn't something that I would enjoy.

I really don't see how making someone wear a suit and tie mkes them more productive. Yes, I've seen the studies about dressing up making you feel more professional and all that, but I really don't buy into when it comes to creative and engineering types.

Likewise, I've been in companies where a "anything goes" atmosphere has infected the professionalism of their staff and the company was run like a fraternity.

In the end, a dress code is the least of worries in most software companies or departments.

Mark Hoffman
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"I really don't see how making someone wear a suit and tie makes them more productive."

You're mistaken if you believe that companies force people to wear suits and ties because of productivity. Any company who says that is lying. The real reasons can be varied, and some even valid (like that customer-facing employees need to present a good image), but productivity? No way.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I think the total casual dress thing is going a little to far.  I worked at Microsoft where there was no dress code and people would walk around barefoot (yuck).

My current place of work is "Business Casual" (khakis and a collared shirt) which is fine by me.

chris
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I agree that casual dress can go too far - one company had to institute a dress code so that people would wear something on their feet (shoes, flip-flops, or even just socks).

There always seems to be the 2% of people who, when confronted with no dress code, seem to think that it means they can dress like homeless beggars (or worse).

Me, I'm adaptable - it all depends on the job/environment/salary.

RocketJeff
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"the women will have to dress comparably (meaning skirts, heels, etc)."

...or slacks & flats...

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

This is what i would do if I had to meet a dress-code...

Buy 5 of the exact same ties (clip-on), shirts, pants, and jacket (if required) and were them every day after day in a rotation so that they wear evenly.  Discount clothing outlets will save you alot if you buy bulk.  Over time the entire set will wear out evenly and eventually (1+ years) you can replcae the whole set with a new and different bulk style/color.

The objective is to keep your clothing costs as LOW as possible while still being confortable and meeting the office dress-code.

If anyone gives you flack about your lack of fashion sense, just tell them that Einstein didn't waste mental energy on fashion every morning, he justs grabbed the next set hanging on the rack!

Heston Holtmann
Thursday, August 28, 2003

my 2cents:

if you buy a good suit (you can often get an _armani_ suit for about $500 if you go to an armani store during the summer) and have it tailored it is very hard to look BAD. even big fat guys look better in a good suit.

it is very easy to look bad wearing what developers usually wear: logo t-shirts, denim t-shirts with logos, wrinkled khakis, jeans.

now, if you are married with kids, this might not matter. but if you are single and go out to lunch in a dense city, where you might run across some interesting potential dates, it might be worthwhile to keep on top of your fashion game as often as possible. :)

rz
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"...or slacks & flats..."  If I want to look like a librarian.  My point is that I am all for business casual.  I think you have to take into consideration the employee's comfort.  Unless you are regularly meeting with clients, I don't see any reason to enforce a uberstrict dress policy.

shiggins
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Simple policy:  if the client requires you to wear a suit and tie, charge $5-10/hour more to cover the added cost to you.  (=

Sam Livingston-Gray
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"
"...or slacks & flats..."  If I want to look like a librarian
"

Hold on - are we talking appearance or comfort? If we're talking about being comfortable, why do you care if you look like a librarian?

And if you *don't* want to look like a librarian, a well-tailored business suit is the best way to go (unless we can talk miniskirt and half shirt...)

Anyway, I'm the wrong guy to ask - I *like* wearing suits. If you have a well-tailored suit and a nice shirt and tie it's just as comfortable as dockers and a golf shirt, and you get treated a HELL of a lot better. (anyone who thinks ties strangle you - get MEASURED next time you buy a shirt)

I often think suit rebellions are more about asserting authority than actual comfort.

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

So are you saying I can't be comfortable AND stylish?

shiggins
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I agree that suit rebellions are asserting *rebellion* to authority.  But who's right and who's wrong.  The employer who says "You have to wear a suit because I say so even though it makes no sense."  or the employee who says "I don't want to wear a suit just because you are making me"?

shiggins
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I remember fondly having to codify a previous employer's dress code when we wrote the employee handbook.  Prior to that, it was "Don't dress like Ryan" and all six of us got the picture.

We ended up still below business casual, but yes it was necessary to specify such items as clean, undamaged clothing, shoes and shirt at all times, no advertisements for anything that couldn't be used at the office.  Oh, and a half-joking recommendation (not that we didn't mean it, more that we were afraid to insult the other 98%) that people shower regularly and wear deodorant.

I try to be understanding about these things, because I do dress embarrassingly like the stereotypical "If only Microsoft made pants, I'd be set for life" guy, but you do have to have some standards or eventually you'll get stuck with Ryan.

Mikayla
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Brad,

I'm not mistaken. That's a pretty broad statement you made there, and not one you can back up.

Plenty of companies require particular dress codes because of a perceived increase in productivity. Now, you and I probably agree that suits and ties aren't going to make most programmers more productive, but I've personally worked with managers who 100% completely believed that a suit makes a programmer more productive.

Some managers want the suits because of appearance for clients, and yes, some managers really do believe that it makes them more productive. (Wrong-headed as they are, they believe it.)

Mark Hoffman
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"Act as the world is, do not act as you wish it was"

Simple truth - people, in general, hold others in a higher respect when they're dressed well. Not taking advantage of that is like taking a driving exam and leaving your glasses at home because you don't think you should need glasses to drive.

Generally when a manager requires a coat and tie, it's because they have an image they want to project to the outside world. They may also feel that having everyone dressed that way in the office will encourage a level of professionalism. On very rare cases they may simply like telling people what to wear, but that kind of sociopathology will become evident in other ways and is a clear sign to leave.

Another way of looking at it - do most people want to see their attorney in a golf shirt and dockers? I'll bet a lawyer who wore that on a regular basis would soon find himself without a client base, no matter how good he was.

Perception is everything, and putting on a suit makes you master of your own perception.

And I still say that if to you "suit != comfort" then you need to buy your suits somewhere else.

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

My first programming job required every developer to wear a collared shirt and tie. I hated it, for three reasons that i thought were pretty valid:

1. I tend to get overheated easily, and wearing a tie makes that a lot worse. There's nothing quite like sweat trickling down your back to make debugging code easier...

2. Our software was running on embedded PC's inside custom-built precision machinery. So we had to interact on a daily basis with the folks in the machine shop, who dressed a lot more casually (mostly for safety reasons). So, the different uniforms helped to foster an us-versus-them attitude.

3. Since I was only in high school at the time, I really couldn't afford "good" business clothes, which meant I got to wear cheap polyester slacks and slightly scratchy shirts for a couple of years until I got a little bit better pay.

One day, I just stopped wearing a tie. Nothing bad happened, and the whole office gradually switched over to "business casual", which was something of a boost to morale.

Not as much of a morale boost as climbing into the suspended ceiling and clipping the wires on the intercom/muzak system, but that's another story...

-Mark

Mark Bessey
Thursday, August 28, 2003

If  you are just a code monkey, then probably it does not matter.

However, if you are working with other companies, and meeting people all day, and someone is paying some hefty bills to you to consult and make the whole process work, then you probably don’t need any hints on how to dress. (you will make a effort t look your best)

When you need to represent a good image, and work with people, the issue of dress becomes very important.

Here is a picture of me traveling in Europe... it was  work trip.

And yes, I do look a bit like Bill Gates.....

http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn/test/france.htm

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com
http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

Albert D. Kallal
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Albert, are you feeling okay? That was a *really* short post for you...

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

It seems I have fallen for one of two classic blunders.  The first is "never get involved in a land war in Asia".  The second, only slightly less famous is this, "Never get in a fashion debate when Philo is on-line".  Ha Ha.....Ha Ha........Ha Ha <shiggins falls over dead>

If you haven't seen "The Princess Bride", that was damn funny:)

shiggins
Thursday, August 28, 2003

My employer understands that a tie would clash with my barefoot ascetic guru costume.

Alyosha`
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I'm gonna side with Philo here. If your suit is uncomfortable, you should have paid for the tailoring. It isn't expensive, it makes the cloths look better, and it certainly feels better. My suits are the most comfortable cloths that I own, because they fit perfectly.

If an employer is willing to pay me enough that I can buy good suits, they'll be hell bent to keep me from wearing them.

Clay Dowling
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Shiggins,

It only works if  Philo == Death



Philo,

You don't happen to have a scythe and/or pale horse name 'Binky'?

mindless sidenote
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I try my hardest to be the most well dressed person in the office, and it makes a difference.

Always look your best! There are no two ways about it.

Meine Hosen sind hervorragend!
Thursday, August 28, 2003

No, my real name is Rube and I spend my mornings at Der Waffle Haus handing out sticky notes.

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Just to pull the conversation even further off-topic....

I'm a documentation weirdo, but I work with a bunch of developers and still have to stare at code every day.

After working at a place that emphasized business casual -- slacks, nice collared shirts, etc. -- I went to work at a place that was more casual -- jeans and t-shirts.  I kept on wearing the nicer clothes, and I noticed that I looked and tended to act more professionally.  My Dad said that he tended to "work to his level of dress," and I found this to be true.

However, I've dropped down a few notches in my attire to nice jeans and shirts.  I've found that people are a little less approachable when I'm dressed up, even if it isn't a massive difference.

:shrug:  Take that as you will.

The Pedant, Brent P. Newhall
Thursday, August 28, 2003

my dad is a doctor and there was some JAMA article a while back where they did a patient study of what the patients liked seeing the doctors in, and it was a formal suit, with a long white lab coat over the suit.  in any case, suits and ties are kind of fun, i'm not sure why there is so much antipathy towards them.

rz
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Because most people aren't used to wearing them.

I would prefer to wear whatever I happen to pick up off the floor but my employer requires a shirt and tie (except on Fridays we can lose the tie).

If you feel that a tie is uncomfortable then you need to go ahead and admit that you've put on some weight since you bought that dress shirt for grandmas funeral and either buy bigger sizes or lose some weight.

I don't think a suit and tie is always appropriate (never wear a tie while working on machinery, including printers and shredders), but there is no reason for it the uncomfortable.

Plus you have a kerchief always close at hand!

Steve Barbour
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Here's another angle:

You are a consultant, asked to wear suit & tie during your engagement with an important client.  No problem.

So you drive over to the client wearing your suit...

... and step out of your rusting 1991 Sentra. :-)

Not exactly a professional image is it?  Yet that is substantially more financially challenging to rectify.

(no longer a problem for me.  I replaced the '91 with an '02 Sentra... and then got laid off two months later.)

David Jones
Thursday, August 28, 2003

If you need help buying clothes, find someone European.  Especially for American men, there seems to be an attitude that looking good and being heterosexual are incompatible.

My Italian American wife and Italian mother-in-law have made a huge difference in my clothes buying habits.

Jim Rankin
Thursday, August 28, 2003

I prefered suits also.  Much easier.  Pick the next tie.  Pick the next dark suit pants.  Pick the next white shirt (of 20).  Easiest dressing I've ever done.  No color matching issues like Biz Casual.  Also, I think suits are more comfortable work than biz casual. 

Note:  Right from the start, I found the jacket part just fucking retarded, wearing it from the car/train to your desk.  F that.    I stopped wearing jackets, and just did the pant/shirt/tie.  I don't give a crap if there's  a meeting or not.  Jacket was only if there was a client meeting.  In fact, once I had a few complete suits, I just bot pants.  Can get 7 pairs pf $50 pants vs. 1 $350 suit. 

Main complaint about suits was in winter.  The pants are so sheer, you can freeze your sack off.  Wind cuts right thru.  And I stopped wearing wingtips after a few years also (Once I knew I could walk at the drop of a hat, and be reemployed the next week).  I hate walking in the snow/slush in god damn dress shoes.  We're supposed to be the smart ones dressed in suits?  Well that was just plain retarded, so I ended it.

Bella Toughlove (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Blaster Worm)
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Interesting facet of the "impress the clients" rationale ... when the project I'm on first started, our directive was suits and ties every day. I didn't mind (I actually like wearing a suit) but of course I was in the minority.

After about a week, they asked us to switch to business casual. They said the clients, who normally dress business casual or, ummm, just casual, were made uncomfortable by our formal appearance.

I guess this just goes back to context.

zahid
Thursday, August 28, 2003

My main objection is not the suit, it's the tie, actually.

I generally end up being dressed slightly between casual and suit and tie, which works, still maintains a certain amount of non-slobbish decorum, can be cleaned at home without Dryel, and is comfortable.

I feel really weird being in the office in a t-shirt or shorts.

Naturally, I think it's far too dotcomish to meet with customers these days in anything but fine apparel.  In most of my client visits, I've been the overdressed one.

Flamebait Sr.
Thursday, August 28, 2003

You don't need to wear wingtips. Just because you're wearing a suit doesn't mean you can't also have fun. Buy some cool dressy shoes with a thicker sole. Look trendy and make sure not to buy a cheap suit. See S&K and Men's Wearhouse? Just drive on by.

Go pick up some magazines and check out the slick European guys and their suits. Dress like that and you'll stand out, even in a sea of suits.

Meine Hosen sind hervorragend!
Thursday, August 28, 2003

And another thing, don't always dress to impress your boss and clients... Dress to impress the girl at the lunch counter. You never know who you're going to run into.

Meine Hosen sind hervorragend!
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"Look trendy and make sure not to buy a cheap suit. See S&K and Men's Wearhouse? Just drive on by."

Sound advice. I don't care what George Zimmer says or what he guarantees. Most of the suits they sell there are cheap suits which will look even worse once they are tailored.

For those that have to dress up, here is some fashion advice from someone who spent years wearing suits and ties to client sites:

1. Spend the money; get nice suits. You might be surprised at how relatively inexpensive it is to have a great suit custom made from material you select. Just having a well fitted suit makes *all* the difference.

2. Have your shirts tailored. Unless you are amazingly fortunate, there is some part of the shirt that will not fit you well. Nothing ruins your appearance like having your shirt bunch up on the back like a windsail or having your sleeves all bunched up around your wrists.

3. Get good shoes. Cheap shoes not only look cheap, they are typically not very comfortable in the long run. Well made shoes can be re-soled and made to look like new for years and years.  Wingtips never go out of style.

4. Listen to your wife/girlfriend/mother about your ties. Women just have a knack for that...

Mark Hoffman
Thursday, August 28, 2003

It's the code-monkeys that wear the suits, Albert. Just as academics and others hired for their capability don't generally wear suits, or certainly aren't forced to, so good developers also don't generally wear suits.

In terms of business sociology, a suit is a device by which the uncertain attempt to convince others they are reputable and reliable. Even big consulting companies now understand this.

Personally, if I see a developer in a suit, I discount him by about 30 percent.

.
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"Personally, if I see a developer in a suit, I discount him by about 30 percent."

Nice troll!! I give that at least a 4 on the Troll-O-Meter!

Mark Hoffman
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"In terms of business sociology, a suit is a device by which the uncertain attempt to convince others they are reputable and reliable. Even big consulting companies now understand this.

Personally, if I see a developer in a suit, I discount him by about 30 percent."

I see - automatically adding 30% based on the suit=bad, but automatically *subtracting* 30% based on the suit=good.

And this is logically consistent to you?

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

if you are working at a pure tech firm, where everyone else is wearing flannel shirts and shorts, and you have to drive to a "campus" to work, and you contact no one other than engineers, you probably don't want to wear a suit to work.

however if you are working in manhattan at a hedge fund as a $175/hr consultant, wearing a suit can't hurt.

rz
Thursday, August 28, 2003

But I know of several Manhattan-style financial firms that have ditched the suits and now have their development teams wear casual dress to work. What's more, those teams do outstanding work.

One reason those firms made this change was that, a few years ago, they discovered people like me were rejecting their oh-so-generous job offers.

.
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Philo, the point is that a suit is a device to artificially inflate the apparent value of the wearer.

Good firms and good developers have no need for such devices, although that's not to say they don't wear suits for a big seminar presentation (or European trip).

.
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Simple - wear a bow tie.  A real one, not a clip on.

That is sort of a "fuck you" to the suits.

Mitch & Murray (from downtown)
Thursday, August 28, 2003

...or to meet the expectations of the viewer.

You don't learn ten times as much at Harvard as you do at State U. Yet people pay ten times as much and others hold those schools in 10x the esteem. So do you view anyone with a Harvard degree as automatically worth 1/10th of someone from State U?

My point is that your troll is idiotic - just as it may be silly to increase your estimation of someone's tech knowledge based on what they wear, it's equally silly to reduce your estimation of their tech knowldge for the same reason.

Put another way - if wearing a suit gives me a head start on the competition, wouldn't I be stupid to NOT wear a suit?

Philo

Philo
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Offtopic, but I should look into getting a bowtie, now that you mention it, Mitch & Murry. ;)

I'm already considering getting some euro-styled shirts when the summer is over so I can get some nifty cufflinks, but that's another matter.

Flamebait Sr.
Thursday, August 28, 2003

All you guys must work on the east coast. Suits are illegal out here in the west.

xyz
Thursday, August 28, 2003

"If you feel that a tie is uncomfortable then you need to go ahead and admit that you've put on some weight since you bought that dress shirt for grandmas funeral and either buy bigger sizes or lose some weight."

Yup, just started buying size 20 shirts.  My tie no longer chokes me.  And yes I need to lose weight.

This is how I like to dress for interviews;)http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/oscon2002/jc_photos5.html

Mike
Thursday, August 28, 2003

For the most part, people that wear suits on a regular basis are either liars or thieves: Politicians, lawyers, salemen, investment brokers and others in the financial industry, television evangelists and school board members.

Why would you want to dress your engineers that way?

Andrew in Austin
Thursday, August 28, 2003

And with Andrew's  post, JOS has reached a new level of cluelessness.

Not me
Thursday, August 28, 2003

Andrew, please remove Austin from your name.  This is how bad reputations get started.

  URLs 
Thursday, August 28, 2003

It depends on the neighborhood the workplace is in, as well.  If you're all coding in suburban paradise, you can get away with the shorts, the tees, the raggedy sneakers. 

Now, if you've got a building in the middle of a gone-to-seed city full of wreckage, abandoned train tracks, burned-out buildings, where there is hardly anybody about who isn't up to no good - you want everybody to be dressed really nice.  That way, you can tell at a glance whether that's a coworker walking towards you down the hallway - or some wandering person who may be a vicious thug looking for some easy money.

Sure, anyone can wear a suit, but hardly anybody bothers putting on a suit to jack people's wallets.  Just isn't worth the effort, somehow.  And you can use badges, but people resent them, shove them in their pockets and stuff like that, and they may not be readily visible from a distance.  A dress code is much easier.

Trollumination
Thursday, August 28, 2003

>>> Not as much of a morale boost as climbing into the suspended ceiling and clipping the wires on the intercom/muzak system, but that's another story...<<<

So I'm not the only one who's done that.

mackinac
Friday, August 29, 2003

For programmers, there is no business justification for any dress code beyond "keep your ass covered" and "shower and wear deodorant on a regular basis". Now, someone is going to bring up the issue of work on a client site. My response would be that if you are being asked to do work on a client site, you are in essence performing <i>two</i> jobs: software engineering and client relations. That should be worth a hefty salary premium.

- Firebug

Firebug
Friday, August 29, 2003

Shoes - the best thing you can do is get a pair of shoe stretchers(about £10 in the UK) - these will make your shoes last three or four times as long, and looking good. Thgis is always a bonus once you have found a pair of comfortable, stylish shoes.

Apart from that, there is nothing wrong with a suit.

regards,

treefrog
Friday, August 29, 2003

Firebug, and if you can get said premium, by all means go for it. But until you do, may I suggest: "Act as the world is, not as you wish it was"

And
"So I'm not the only one who's done that."

Heh. Me too.

Philo

Philo
Friday, August 29, 2003

Trollumination, if you work in a seedy neighbourhood, the last thing you should be doing is wearing a suit.

It advertises the fact that you're worth mugging, and hinders you if you have to run. (Been there, done that.)

.
Friday, August 29, 2003

If the women were allowed to wear trousers, philo, then the men should be allowed to wear skirts.


Friday, August 29, 2003

They are in Scotland.


Friday, August 29, 2003

I just want shiggins to recognize the supreme effort of will that's gone into 50+ posts without anyone asking for a pic.

Philo

Philo
Friday, August 29, 2003

> And another thing, don't always dress to impress your boss and clients... Dress to impress the girl at the lunch counter. You never know who you're going to run into.

Wake up...When every male in the entire building is wearing a suit & tie, you are not impressing anyone.  You are just another anonymous generic cog...

Suits can last 10 years.  So buy decent ones.  100% wool ALWAYS. 

I also agree about getting shirts tailored.  I do think shirts are shirts...$20 vs. $80....I'd rather wear $20 that is tailored...  An $80 shirt that fits like shit still looks like shit.



> But I know of several Manhattan-style financial firms that have ditched the suits and now have their development teams wear casual dress to work. What's more, those teams do outstanding work.

So you're saying clothes don't affect the code quality?  Gee whiz...Who knew?

Yea, I add 1/2 size to my collar, b/c I will NEVER let a damn tie choke me....



> For programmers, there is no business justification for any dress code beyond "keep your ass covered" and "shower and wear deodorant on a regular basis".

How is that only for proramming?  Clothes serve no purpose other than "hide your balls and ass-crack"  No one who works indoors needs clothes, based on your retarded premise.

Bella Toughlove (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Blaster Worm)
Friday, August 29, 2003

I remember a job I held briefly (for a real deluded jackass of a boss).  He insisted that to show we were a "significant" company the guys had to wear jacket and ties to client sites. 

So they would show up at construction sites with everyone else in jeans, t-shirts and workboots, ready for heavy work, looking like totally useless dorks.

As a chick, I like the bow-tie solution.  Personally, if I were setting business dress rules, I would say either jacket or tie for the guys, and in the office you could take off your jacket.  But I am partial to the mock turtleneck under a suit look.

Contrary Mary
Friday, August 29, 2003

bow ties? yikes.

"A bow tie is a symptom of a confused sexuality"

i'm not sure who said that quote, but i'd vote against a bow tie, unless you want to look like orville redenbacker or louis farrahkhan.

In any case, most places where i've worked everyone looked like such slobs that wearing a suit and tie to the office really did impress women at lunch breaks. it also kept the managers on their toes, because they would assume i had just been interviewing at another firm.

these days i work at home in my underpants but like to put on a suit and tie when i go out to eat.

name withheld
Friday, August 29, 2003

You're not an anonymous generic cog if you are wearing a snazzier suit than everyone else. That was my point.

Put two guys wearing a cheap suit and a nice tailored suit next to each other and you'll be able to tell the difference. Add to that nice suit something special, like a unique tie and shoes, and you're set.

Meine Hosen sind hervorragend!
Friday, August 29, 2003

"I just want shiggins to recognize the supreme effort of will that's gone into 50+ posts without anyone asking for a pic."

Noted and appreciated ;)

shiggins
Friday, August 29, 2003

<Andrew, please remove Austin from your name.  This is how bad reputations get started.>

I'm just pulling your leg, but it is typical for some con men and other disreputable types to wear a suit to gain a modicum of respectability.

We do occassionally wear suits in Austin. I have several that I wear to the opera with my wife and on New Years Eve. We just don't consider it practical for IT work here.

I also wear one whenever I have to go down to the courthouse enter a plea of not guilty.  (Honestly your honor, I didn't do it.)

Andy in Austin
Friday, August 29, 2003

>  Put two guys wearing a cheap suit and a nice tailored suit next to each other and you'll be able to tell the difference. Add to that nice suit something special, like a unique tie and shoes, and you're set.


Girls can't tell the difference,  they will simply go for the taler guy....

ie:  What do you call a midget in a suit?
ie:  You don't give mouthwash to a midget...
You don't put lipstick on a pig..

Suits do ZERO for getting chicks,
barking up the wrong tree.

Bella Toughlove (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Blaster Worm)
Friday, August 29, 2003

I propose a tangent.,...."Suit & Tie Pet Peeves:"
I'll start:

1) who HATES taking out all the god damn hidden pins when you buy a new shirt?  Just when you think you're done, there's another damn pin....

2) And how about having to dry clean a new damn shirt, just b/c its got so many square wrinkles fom being packaged? 

Bella Toughlove (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Blaster Worm)
Friday, August 29, 2003

"Suit & Tie Pet Peeves:"

There is never enough silica packets in a new suit.  Man, those sure are tasty!!

Jeff MacDonald
Friday, August 29, 2003

Wow, Bella's obviously never seen an iron.  Then again, I'm one of the few people I know who starches a shirt. But I paid the money for the tuxedo, and it's gonna look good, darn it.

Clay Dowling
Friday, August 29, 2003

" Meine Hosen sind hervorragend!"

Was ist in den Hosen ist hervorragend ;-)

I mean good appearances help, but what's inside the suit is what really matters.

Dino
Saturday, August 30, 2003

"Then again, I'm one of the few people I know who starches a shirt."

+1. When I was wearing a shirt and tie to work, I always ironed the shirt the night before, using spray starch. It looks much better that way (and unlike the images from the 1950s, doesn't leave you looking that you're wearing a board).

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Saturday, August 30, 2003

Sometimes, I'd iron, instead of getting it dry cleaned after each use.  But Ironing a NEW shirt is just WAAAY too much work (and still looks like crap). 

PS: Who has time to iron when you're working 12 hour days and making $100/hr.  1 word:  subcontract. 

Bella
Saturday, August 30, 2003

I will say that I often dress casual, and it depends on the type people you need to meet and work with.

I done some work at few accounting firms, and they all as a matter of course dressed with suit and tie. So, I simply did the same. It really helped me to fit in. When you go out for lunch it also helped me fit in (these guys were eating some really nice places downtown). Ditto for some law firms.

With the vast majority of my clients, nice casual clothes is the order of the day. No suit and tie.

And, to further this, my use of the word “code monkey” was rather bad. My apologies to all coders!

I love to code. I think we all love the process of coding. However, I would not want to JUST code all day. I want to meet and work with interesting people. I want to be part of the design process etc. The *whole* process of creating software is what I enjoy the most.

Albert D. Kallal
Edmonton, Alberta Canada
kallal@msn.com
http://www.attcanada.net/~kallal.msn

Albert D. Kallal
Saturday, August 30, 2003

"PS: Who has time to iron when you're working 12 hour days and making $100/hr.  1 word:  subcontract."

2 words: false savings. It took me no more than about 90 seconds to iron a shirt. :) I suppose when you start, it takes a few minutes, until you get a rhythm going...

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Saturday, August 30, 2003

Unfold Ironing board.
Fill iron with water.
Wait for iron to warm up.
Iron shirt.
Put away iron.
Put away ironing board.

Took me way more than 90 seconds.

Bella
Sunday, August 31, 2003

Here's $10. Go buy yourself a multi-tasking brain. :) (hint: you don't have to stand around and wait for the iron to warm up...)

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Sunday, August 31, 2003

Wow.... 

This topic reminds me of the many hours that were waisted @ one of my previous employers... Every month we had this LARGE team meeting and ended up spending about 2 hours in debate over dress code for students (Private IT College) ...

Bottom line then and now is still the same for me...
If you know that you need to represent yourself, or your employer.. Dress the part, otherwise who cares? People I work with now can show up in whatever attire we want for the regular 9-5 grind, unless we have meetings that day , we dress like developers, after all we are developers... Jeans, shorts, skirts, skivvies.. makes no diffrence if no one see's us.

Sometime we even like to torment the Sr. Excs' about how well we work in the nude ;-) ... we don't actually work in the buck, but it keeps the higher up's from coming into the development LAB and inturrupting us :-P

Robert J. French
Sunday, August 31, 2003

---"Go buy yourself a multi-tasking brain. :) (hint: you don't have to stand around and wait for the iron to warm up...) "-----

Don't forget a few more dollars for the fire-extinguisher!

Stephen Jones
Sunday, August 31, 2003

---"over dress code for students (Private IT College) ... "-----

What I find strange is that the countries where there is no dress code for students, such as Italy, France or Spain produce the best dressed people, whilst countires where it is common such as the UK, produce the scruffiest yobs imaginable.

And the hypocrisy of it all. When I worked at a private school in Riyad in the early 90's they decided on a school uniform, which looked like the typical Brit school uniform minus the jacket. For two years educated adults who should have known better went around ticking off all students who didn't have their shirt properly tucked in. Then in the mid 90's the Islamic nutters (mainly British and American reverts) got control and announced an Islamic school uniform, which was typical Pakistani dress with a long shirt and loose pyjama trousers, and for the next two years any student who dared to tuck his shirt in his trousers was severely repirimanded for unIslamic wear!

Stephen Jones
Sunday, August 31, 2003

No problem with a tie and white collar. This is how engineers dress in many contries (yes, a la NASA in the 60s). It is elegant and functional.  Also, you can never go wrong with nice shoes, khakis, a belt and the corporate polo shirt.

Pablo
Monday, September 01, 2003

"Sherlock" Brad:
Note it literally said "Wait for iron".  That bottleneck exists b/c you HAVE to wait for iron to warm, regardless if it has been turned before or after setting up the ironing board.  So the step MUST exist in the list. 

Next time don't be so arrogant, you're not that impressive.

PS: Regarding your website, if you're going to do something, do it right. 


> Here's $10. Go buy yourself a multi-tasking brain. :) (hint: you don't have to stand around and wait for the iron to warm up...)  Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Sunday, August 31, 2003

Bella
Monday, September 01, 2003

I love wearing dark business formal suits and ties with all the trimmings. Collar bar , french cuff shirts , pocket silks, pearl tie tacks i love the feel of a suit as soon as i slide my dressy suit pants on it feels amazing. i wear suits even at casual events.

suit guy
Saturday, January 17, 2004

The anti-suit stuff that has been popular for the last decade has run its course.  If you just can't stand the thought of looking professional because you just have to be "FREE" and express your inner self at work and all that warmed over sixties self-absorbed junk, then go find a tree and sit under it and meditate, and forget all about a job. 

Those companies that forced lawyers and banker to take off their pinstriped sits and wingtips and walk around barefoot in jeans are switching back. It was an idea that belonged to the late nineties boom - it was like wearing 1973 bell-bottoms in 1983. The time has past.

If a company wants men to wear a suit and a tie and you don't like it, stop whining and start your own company where you can dress like a bum. Just don't use terms like "nice casual" and "office casual" and all that trendy garbage. just admit "I'm a slob and I love it".

Jim Wells
Sunday, February 15, 2004

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