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Safety in India

Today's bombing in Mumbai, India is an example why western companies must be careful outsourcing to a country like India.  Face it guys, at the risk of getting flamed,  the country has security issues.  American companies & firms dealing with important American companies will become targets.  Firms will have to weigh whether the labor savings will be worth the security issues.

Arthur Dent
Monday, August 25, 2003

Ummm, during the active Provo campaign in the UK; London, the City of London and a variety of targets were successfully hit.

Would that be an argument not to have work done in London or the UK at the time?

In parts of the US its more dangerous to pump gas than it is to find food in Baghdad.

Should we not have work done in South Carolina?

Simon Lucy
Monday, August 25, 2003

India has never had even one terrorist attack where the loss of lives has been as high as the WTC attack.  In the current climate, San Fransisco or New York or London is more likely to be a terrorist target than any city in India.  Mumbai is in North India while most IT companies are located in the South - Bangalore, Hyderabad and Chennai.  Crime rate and terrorist threat is infinitely lesser than in the North.  And Mumbai has a history of being the target of terrorists - influenced by a strong  militant islamic underworld.

jag
Monday, August 25, 2003

>India has never had even one terrorist attack where the loss of lives has been as high as the WTC attack.

How many countries have (in recent history)?

If you think India is a safe, happy place, why don't we all pack our bags & go?

Anon4Now
Monday, August 25, 2003

This has got to be the weakest argument against outsourcing I've seen.  India is no more or less secure than it was yesterday.  If India was safe enough to outsource to after the Parliament building was hit, then it's safe enough today.

Ankur
Monday, August 25, 2003

today in Budapest, Hungary a 20year old guy accidentally blasted his home made bomb on a tram. only injuries, no death.

...

I also feel that there is no real work in Budapest :)

na
Monday, August 25, 2003

The number of people killed in this blast is currently 10. Everyday more than 10 people are killed in freeways and motorways. Its known that you are more likely to die crossing the road than in a terrorist attack even of the scale of Sept 11.  The original poster is just trying to spread FUD which is not justified by facts whatsoever.

jag
Monday, August 25, 2003

> If you think India is a safe, happy place,
> why don't we all pack our bags & go?

And why should we go?

India is a very poor country. Nothing like the lifestyle we are accustomed to here!

Krave
Monday, August 25, 2003

>India is a very poor country. Nothing like the lifestyle we are accustomed to here!

That's my point.  Generally, the poorer the country, the more unstable it is...  Poor people are not usually happy (duh!)

Anon4Now
Monday, August 25, 2003

"Generally, the poorer the country, the more unstable it is..."

I disagree on this point.  If you define instability as per capita murder rate, then I don't think India is in the top 10.

anony127
Monday, August 25, 2003

And as for "Poor people are not usually happy (duh!) " what do you base that on?

MugsGame
Monday, August 25, 2003

I hear Antartica is relatively safe.

P.S. You think I'm joking.  I'm not.

AnyMouse
Monday, August 25, 2003

The initial argument makes sense. More than 10.000 people die in the US by gunfire per year. Thus jobs are outsourced to India.

Johnny Bravo
Monday, August 25, 2003

Congratulations on having found the lamest argument yet against outsourcing.

You may not have realized it dear Arthur, since analysis doesn't seem to be your strongpoint (which is probably why they want to outsource your job in the first place) but the bombs in Bombay are aimed against Indians, not Americans.

And as most of the software work is done in the South, where there are very few Moslems, your argument is rather like saying IBM should immediately close down all operations in Vermont because of the possibility of race clashes between the Klu Klux Klan and the World of Islam in South Carolina.

Stephen Jones
Monday, August 25, 2003

There are many places in the world that aren't particularly safe at the moment. India is not one of them. And to draw a conclusion that outsourcing to such a country is dangerous because of their instability is hopefully a joke, because it makes no sense as anything else.

My experience in having been to over 30 countries is that the people who most likely to warn you of the dangers of another place are the ones who've never been there, or much of anywhere else.

People outside the US often imagine that its inner cities can be a free fire zone- people in the US imagine that a place like India is a lawless land of militants and angry bombers. Neither belief is remotely close to true.

Matt
Monday, August 25, 2003

Arthur,
hope you had your asbest jacket on.

Johnny Bravo
Monday, August 25, 2003

I wouldn't classify the truck bomb as indicative of the safety of India.

The whole simmering issues between India and Pakistan is more what should be worried about.

Flamebait Sr.
Monday, August 25, 2003

"Poor people are not usually happy (duh!) "


Wrong. Google for any number of studies on happiness and you will find that poor people are often much happier than the wealthy.

Not me.
Monday, August 25, 2003

Google for any number of studies on life expectance and you will find that poor people are often much younger when they die than the wealthy.

Johnny Bravo
Monday, August 25, 2003

Granted the recent bombings have been in the northern part of the country, however, the growing importance of these industries in the south, especially in connection to the United States, will be an enticing target for militant groups. 

Arthur Dent
Monday, August 25, 2003

The initial post here is pretty dumb.  India isn't exactly a terrorist hotspot.  One bombing doesn't mean it is unsafe.

And as Flamebait mentioned, if you want SOMETHING to stress about with regards to stability of India, don't even worry about terrorism or poverty.  The *real* stability concern with India is the fact that they've come frighteningly close to having nuclear exchanges with Pakistan in the past, and the threat for this to happen in the future is still very real.

Mister Fancypants
Monday, August 25, 2003

I know it's cynical, but: using bombs is pretty dumb. Basically, they (whoever) just need to cut off one of the few fibre lines which connect India with the rest of the world.

Johnny Bravo
Monday, August 25, 2003

Google and ye shall find ...

... whatever it was you set out to find.

Alyosha`
Monday, August 25, 2003

"India isn't exactly a terrorist hotspot. "  I guess the government officials who were killed on December 13, 2001 in parliment attack in New Delhi would have a hard time believing that statement. 

Zaphod Bebblebrox
Monday, August 25, 2003

The fights between India and Pakistan can be compared to those between a husband and wife. The neighbours will well hear it and assume its going be catastrophic but they just kiss and make up eventually. Neither country can afford a nuclear bomb on its head and the threats are all just posturing to satisfy the reseptive peoples.  Everybody including the west knows that.  As India gets more prosperous, people's attention will shift from Pakistan and there will be eventual peace.  Actually, India is getting more and more secure for outsourcing. 

jag
Monday, August 25, 2003

"Ummm, during the active Provo campaign in the UK; London, the City of London and a variety of targets were successfully hit.

Would that be an argument not to have work done in London or the UK at the time?"

Yes.

Jim Rankin
Monday, August 25, 2003

I was in India a couple of weeks after the December 2001 Parliament attack, and I can say I trust their security measures far more than I do ours. For one internal flight, they searched everyone multiple times. They were in my carry-on bag and my wife's purse three or four times, and very thoroughly.

The kicker is that, while they were more thorough than I've seen here, they were also exceptionally polite -- and they got us through ALL those checks in less than 30 minutes. They knew what they were doing.

Zahid
Monday, August 25, 2003

Off topic a bit, but who cares.

What came to my mind while reading your posts is:

Lots of jobs are being outsourced to "poor" countries because work is cheaper there. And work is cheaper because people in India can work in offices without AC, doesn’t need to have a new car every five years, and generally have lower expectations from life.

Does this mean that we (I’m writing this from EU, so pardon my English) will also have to settle with less than we have now, or will "Indians" eventually raise their expectations?

Lamp
Monday, August 25, 2003

Im currently living & working in New Zealand.

To be perfectly honest I consider pretty much every other country in the world to be fill of mad bastards all hoping for a chance to kill each other.

America remains the most lethal country in the world (honestly, statistically its easier to die from violence there than anywhere else with the general exception of countries actually involved in a war).

But really the entire world is in the process of going mad.  Crazy right-wing leaders are moving to the front in a heap of countries and looking around for someone to blame.

Frankly Ill be relieved when it does, the suspense is killing me.
Certainly the list of countries I dont want to visit anymore is a lot longer than the list of those I do.

FullNameRequired
Monday, August 25, 2003

Those condemning Dent for raising this point are themselves jumping to conclusions too quickly. Dent's point was simple and valid.

The India / Pakistan conflict is serious, and it's the type of thing that would American executives think twice about hopping on aeroplanes in that region of the world. Just because this point happens to favour anit-offshoring arguments doesn't mean it has no merit.

Whoever said the India / Pakistan spat is like a family fight has to be kidding.

analyst
Monday, August 25, 2003

1. We, i.e. programmers, will have to settle with less than we have now.
2. Our managers will not and don't have to.
3. Neither do they have to visit those countries they outsource to.

Johnny Bravo
Monday, August 25, 2003

>Whoever said the India / Pakistan spat is like a family fight has to be kidding.

But statistics show you are far more likely to be killed by a friend or family member than by a stranger. Family feuds and domestic violence cases is when it gets really crazy, involving torture and murder of small children and the like. Complete strangers are less likely to bother with that psycho stuff -- they just break in, steal stuff, and leave.

So, yeah - it is a family fight. Pakistan used to be part of India so the analogy is apt.

Tony Chang
Monday, August 25, 2003

I want to dispel some of the myths circulating about India.
India and Pakistan close to nuclear exchange.
Forget about the nuclear exchange I doubt there will be even a full scale war apart from some borderly exchanges. India has strategic depth to its advantage in case if you guys feel if something breaks out.

Off topic
Lamp's quote about working in India without AC and not buying car etc. is ridiculus. Do you feel buying a new car every 5 years is high life. Im sorry but Indians by tradition do not have indulgence towards materialistic life.  And sorry no offence, we wont rise to your "higher expectation" anytime in future.
And poor people are unhappy !!! guys gimme a break.

Work is outsourced to India due to some valid economic and technical reasons like cost and quality of techforce available. Arthur Dent should take a look at life in Mumbai today  before making any predictions. People who feel insecure about India should come here and take a look at it first hand.  I promise you will not be disappointed and will take some good memories back with you.

cooler
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

The United States was much much closer to a much more devastating nuclear war with the Soviet Union for forty years, than Pakistan and India are. Pakistan and India have had two full scale wars, in 1965 and 1971, but the average Indian in his village didn't notice anything.

The more worrying thing in India is the rise of Hindu fascism, which now runs much of the country, but even that is no more a reason to leave the country than the rise to power of the extreme right in the US.

As to cooler's comment about "Indians by tradition do not have indulgence towards materialistic life", this is a joke; the kind of rubbish peddled by "gurus" who leave their gullible western followers in poverty while they drive around the compound in Rolls Royces. In my experience Indians and other sub-continentals are among the most materialistically minded people in the world, if only because the poverty around them is a reminder that the alternative is anything but palatable.

One thing is clear; for a westerner (or any other rich individual) India is exceptionally safe. If you are a poor Moslem in a Bombay slum, or an untouchable in a Bihar village, then that is a different story.

Stephen Jones
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Stephen the gurus you are talking about who go about peddling .... are not the true representatives of Indians. There are such people everywhere in the world. So to compare them with an average Indian is even a bigger joke. I would says things have changed as Indians have adopted western culture more than any asian country. But the traditional values still remain in majority of them.

Anyway I would not like to  change the topic discussion here. Please feel free to email me of your observations.

cooler
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

I do remember, during my one visit to Mumbai, that the people I was with and minded by spent most of their time talking about stock market issues, the ambition of becoming a bollywood actor and the state of cricket.

Great food as well.

Simon Lucy
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

I was in Mumbai last year. I didn't hear any explosions or see any terrorists (though one guy did stare at me for a little too long). Therefore it is a safe place.

Someone put a bomb in fornt of Charles Schwabs house in Pebble Beach recently. That's only 45 miles from me. It is very clear that I must move to Mumbai now or I will die from a terrorists bomb.

Bummer, I HATE moving. Its such a hassle.

Marvin
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

By no means I wanted to offend anyone.

What I meant is that obviously work is cheaper in “India” (which stands for all countries that jobs are  outsourced to) not only because wages are lower, but also because employers can get away with less benefits. And if we (the westerns) want to become competitive we will obviously have to settle for less?

lamp
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Congratulations. Straight from the horse's mouth.

Johnny Bravo
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

Dent is pathetic.  Don't fight capitalism with your sensationalism, you poor slob.  Go crack open a few books, and update your skills, rather than resorting to pathetic scare tactics.  You embarass me...

Bella Toughlove (Or How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Blaster Worm)
Tuesday, August 26, 2003

or just find out what skiils the market in your favorite country is pying top dolllar (euro, rupee, whatever) for and do that.

marvin
Wednesday, August 27, 2003

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