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Speaking of Religious Debate...

So I was checking some of my humor sites and I ran across this doll:  http://thegodsquad.com/cgi-local/shop.pl/page=products.htm

Basically, it's a kid's doll that's supposed to be Jesus, but honestly, it reminded me more of some of the programmers I know -- long stringy hair, comfy sandals, functional clothing, a grin that's somewhere between smug and stoned -- and it got me wondering:  Which programming language would Jesus use?  (And why?)

Disclaimer:  This is a tongue-in-cheek post.  I half expect it to be canned by someone at Fog Creek, but it's about time I learned a new language and I find it can be interesting to see how people feel about the languages they use.  In a similar vein, see also "The Parable Of The Languages" at http://www.seanm.ca:70/nerd/language_parable.txt and probably a few other places as well.

Anon, of course
Friday, July 18, 2003

Well if that's the programmers you know, I wish I worked where they do (assuming they work).  It's strictly shirt and tie here.

On the debate...

Everyone knows Jesus programs in VBA.

"In the beginning was the WORD and the WORD was with God and the WORD was God"

--Someplace in the New Testament (Paul wrote it I think).

Steve Barbour
Friday, July 18, 2003

Pulease Steve it's John 1:1.

But Word is actually the greek word LOGOS, which means logic or reasoning.

In the beginning
Friday, July 18, 2003

I understand the translation...just didn't have the reference off the top of my head.

Tongue was (I thought obviously) planted in my cheek.

Steve Barbour
Friday, July 18, 2003

Besides, as my old man (a pastor) used to say in referring to new translations of the bible, "The King James version was good enough for the apostle Paul, it's good enough for me."

His tongue was firmly planted in his cheek at the time as well.

Steve Barbour
Friday, July 18, 2003

I don't know if Jesus would be partial to any one language.  After all, at Pentacost the disciples ended up speaking all languages anyway.

But given importance of community in Christianity he would have been an Open Source advocate for sure!

Rob H
Friday, July 18, 2003

I just wanted to mention the logos connection since it suggests God is a computer programmer. The Haggadah informs us that the Torah is "written with black fire on white fire, and is lying on the lap of God." I shouldn't have to spell out what that is describing!

X. J. Scott
Friday, July 18, 2003

He can't be a programmer - he got one day off out of seven. =P

timmy
Friday, July 18, 2003

http://pobox.com/~kragen/tao-of-programming.html

'Each language has its purpose, however humble. Each language expresses the Yin and Yang of software. Each language has its place within the Tao.

But do not program in COBOL if you can avoid it.'

I dunno, it seemed appropriate somehow.

Mike Swieton
Friday, July 18, 2003

Its all the Qabbalah man...

Simon Lucy
Friday, July 18, 2003

Whatever language you pick, never forget: Jesus saves!

And so should you, unless you can afford a UPS.

Groby
Friday, July 18, 2003

Whenever I'm faced with a difficult situation, I think to myself, "What would Jesus do?".  Then I imagine  condemning my enemies to eternal hell-fire, and I feel much better.

J. D. Trollinger
Friday, July 18, 2003

I need a UPS... I think that you can find one fairly cheap, maybe $150. I could be wrong, but I do know I need one.

www.marktaw.com
Saturday, July 19, 2003

Visit http://www.ravingatheist.com today and gain salvation.

Homo Sapien Intelligentus
Sunday, July 20, 2003

*** John 1:1-3 ***

1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.

The definite article (the) appears before the first occurrence of the·os´ (God) but not before the second. The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone. So the text is not saying that the Word (Jesus) was the same as the God with whom he was but, rather, that the Word was godlike, divine, a god

GenX'er
Monday, July 21, 2003

I don't know about Jesus, but GOD would program using the front panel toggle switches.

pdq
Monday, July 21, 2003

"The articular (when the article appears) construction of the noun points to an identity, a personality, whereas a singular anarthrous (without the article) predicate noun before the verb (as the sentence is constructed in Greek) points to a quality about someone."

So says the Watchtower (_Reasoning From The Scriptures_, pg212), but not necessarily true -- Cowell's rule provides that a definite predicate nominative generally lacks the article (although the converse is not true -- an anarthous predicate nominative need not be definite).

The NWT translation of this verse has caught fire from all sides, and probably for good reason -- in English, the translation "a god" suggests the possibility of many gods (not really in character with the rest of John, or the Bible for that matter), where as "was God" is permitted by the text and "was divine" is the least objectionable rendering ...

Not that I care, mind you.  I'm an atheist ...

Alyosha`
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

Alyosha`, The Bible refers to many gods not just the Almighty - God the Father. However I agree with what you said about the Bible teaching in one God. I believe in the One True God Jehovah [Yahweh], and his son Jesus Christ [master worker Proverbs 8:30 & Michael]. I do not believe in the Trinity.

2Cor 4:4 - Satan referred to as a god
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Psalm 82:6 - human judges referred to as gods in Israel
"I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

John 10:34 - human judges referred to as gods by Jesus
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[1] ?

1 Corinthians 8:5 - human rulers described as gods
For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords"),

Psalm 8:5 - Angels refered to as gods
Yet You have made him but a little lower than God [or heavenly beings], and You have crowned him with glory and honor.

Were you always an Atheist? What factors led you to that conclusion?

GenX'er
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

I the "one true god" is omnipotent, why does he need a son?

What the heck is a holy ghost anyway?

I can see someone coming to the conclusion that there are 0, 1, or some large number of gods, but three? Where's the logic in three?

pdq
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

pdq not sure if you're agreeing with me or disagreeing but here goes:

Q - Why does he need a son?
A - God doesn't "need" anyone per se. But he is a loving God and created other beings to enjoy life JC, Angels, Humans.

1 John 4:8  ...God is love.

Q - What the heck is a holy ghost anyway?
A - The Holy Spirit is God's Active Force - not a person.

John the Baptizer said that Jesus would baptize with holy spirit, even as John had been baptizing with water. Hence, in the same way that water is not a person, holy spirit is not a person. (Matthew 3:11) What John foretold was fulfilled when, following the death and resurrection of Jesus, holy spirit was poured out on his followers gathered in Jerusalem. The Bible says: “They all became filled with holy spirit.” (Acts 2:4) Were they “filled” with a person? No, but they were filled with God’s active force

Q - I can see someone coming to the conclusion that there are 0, 1, or some large number of gods, but three? Where's the logic in three?
A - The Trinity is not a Bible teaching. The Jews were 100% monotheistic. The trinity doctrine isn't even found in the Scriptures. The doctrine was added to Christianity at the Council of Nicaea 325 C.E by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine who wanted to unify his empire for political reasons. Actually, long before Jesus walked the earth gods were worshiped in groups of three, or trinities, in places such as ancient Egypt and Babylon.

GenX'er
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

Gen,

I wasn't exactly serious. I can't expect to find logic and reason behind what is essentially faith. However, being an agnostic/Jew I find a lot of the Christian ideology to be convoluted. In my opinion, it was put in place to enable the church hierachy to keep everything a mystery to the masses. Also, they adopted lots of stuff from local pagan religions (Xmas trees, easter eggs, etc) which tends to dilute the monotheistic basis of the religion.

pdq
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

GenX: I was raised a Protestant Christian (of no particular denomination).  During my senior year of high school I became more and more concerned about finding out why I believed what I believed.  Why would I, as a reasonable person, believe the stories of the Bible and no other religious text?  Why would I believe the miraculous story of the Resurrection?  As I sought the answers to these questions, I was simply underwhelmed with the evidence for these things.  None of it was really compelling to me.  Eventually I abandoned belief in the Christian God I was taught to believe -- and seeing the evidence was no better for any other God or gods, I became an atheist.

"The Trinity is not a Bible teaching ... [t]he trinity doctrine isn't even found in the Scriptures."

The teaching that Jesus is the archangel Michael isn't explicitly found in the Bible either; the Watchtower inferred it sometime during the 20th century.  The early Christians likewise inferred the Trinity from the Bible.  It solved a difficult problem for them -- how to reconcile monotheistic Judaism (Deut 6:4, Isa 44:8) with the seemingly divine and unique nature of Jesus (John 8:58, 10:30, 14:6-10, 20:28, Phil 2:6-11, Heb 13:20, Rev 1:17, 22:13-16). 

The Holy Spirit got thrown into the mix on the basis of verses like Matt 28:19 and II Cor 13:14.  Although it's true that the Holy Spirit is often spoken of as an impersonal force, Christ is also sometimes described in impersonal terms (Rom 6:3, Gal 3:27).  Moreover, John 16:8-14 speaks of the Paraclete, the Spirit of truth, in terms of personhood.

"The doctrine was added to Christianity at the Council of Nicaea 325 C.E by the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine who wanted to unify his empire for political reasons".

Again, not exactly.  The idea of the Trinity was around a long time before Nicea -- they didn't simply make it up out of nowhere.  Justin Martyr taught it in 150AD; Tertullian taught it in 210, and Gregory Thaumaturgus the pupil of Origen taught it in 260.  Neither did Constantine advocate or intercede for either side during the Council of Nicaea, but he simply urged that the three-hundred-some church leaders who came from all over the empire should come to some agreement regarding the teachings of Arius, who denied the divinity of Jesus.

"Actually, long before Jesus walked the earth gods were worshiped in groups of three, or trinities, in places such as ancient Egypt and Babylon".

The Canaanites were building altars and sacrificing animals long before the Israelites came along and instituted their own rituals of blood atonement.  The Greeks told stories of heroes born of virigns long before Jesus came on the scene.  Similarity between pagan beliefs and Christian ones does not make those beliefs automatically unbiblical.

Alyosha`
Tuesday, July 22, 2003

Alyosha`,

I appreciate your insight! Thanx.

One thing I wanted to mention is that I didn't mean that the trinity doctrine all of a sudden was invented at the counsel of Nicea. I realize that it was a on-going debate.

GenX'er
Wednesday, July 23, 2003

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