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I'm not defending Microsoft

I just finished reading your Lord Palmerston blog.
You defend Microsoft too often  Joel.

I have a fewQuestions:
1)Why do  you defend Microsoft so often Joel?

2)Do you think Microsoft products (MS Access) should be    used for mission critical aps like elections, aerospace,banking apps?See below. 

>I'm not even defending Microsoft, I'm just saying that big >handwavy generalizations made from a position of deep >ignorance is one of the biggest wastes of time on the net >today.

>"After a number of highly publicized failures to build GUIs >with Java, enough people know to stay away from this >world."

You should get out more often. I worked at a bank a while back.They replaced thousands of clients written in C++ with Java(Swing). The users were happy and experienced better performance.

The clients were running on old (soon to be replaced) Intel 80486 machines.

3)Could you do this with VB/ActiveX/XP (or whatever your calling it today)?

Your ignorance makes your blog a big waste of time.You should get out more often.

4)But are  you really ignorant?

5) Do you believe in democracy?
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0307/S00065.htm
  )
, ( http://slashdot.org/articles/02/05/10/123206.shtml?tid  )

6) Why is Microsoft forcing cable companies to adopt 'TV Foundation' software in their set-top boxes? Why the lobbying?
( http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-1021938.html )

7) Do you support the  Initiative for Software Choice?(  http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-1025268.html  )

If you dont know the answers to these questions could you ask your friends a M.S. ?

Joel Gates
Friday, July 18, 2003

Just when you feel like you should be missing the X-Files, posts like this bring you back. :)

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Friday, July 18, 2003

What is Intel 80486? Damn... now I remember.

19th floor
Friday, July 18, 2003

Is this a genuine wish to discuss the merits (or otherwise) of Microsoft or just an excuse to slag off someone to make yourself feel more important?

Pete J
Friday, July 18, 2003

Swing on a 486? My brain just feels like its slogging trough sticky jelly even thinking a bout this.
I think the most memory I ever remember on a 486 was 32Mb. Wow!

Just me (Sir to you)
Friday, July 18, 2003

This is a troll.

You know the rule:  Don't feed it.

Brent P. Newhall
Friday, July 18, 2003

Go back to slashdot plz.

Application Specialist
Friday, July 18, 2003

"You defend Microsoft too often" -- quick question: how often is "too often", and how often is "not often enough"? 

I'm just curious.

Eric

Eric Lippert
Friday, July 18, 2003

JG,

You've got the appropriate amount of hostility for a troll, however you are metaphorically getting out of the safari jeep and kicking the lions. Guess what that means, metaphorically speaking?

Mark Pearce
Friday, July 18, 2003

I loved the 'do you believe in democracy' link. It gives a detailed description of how to hack into a voting machine, but then in the last line says 'we weren't able to test this on an actual voting machine'.

David Clayworth
Friday, July 18, 2003

1) Why do people who've never developed a real application in their life attack Windows and Microsoft all the time?

2) SQL Server

3) I worked at a Big Company that scrapped Java and replaced the apps with ones written in VB. They were much better.

4) Let's introduce the conspiracy angle. (Initiative for Software Choice, gasp)

If you dont know the answers to these questions could you ask your friends at IBM?


Friday, July 18, 2003

How do you get "better performance" with a Swing app?  This isn't a troll - I seriously want to know.

Back when I was running a Pentium II, 233MHz box with 96 MB RAM, it took 2 minutes to load SwingSet2 (Sun's GUI demo app). Later I had a 800 MHz box with 256 MB RAM and it took 30 seconds to load. Now I have a 2.2 GHz box with 512 MB RAM, and it loads in a reasonable amount of time.

So, how do you get a 486 to run a Swing app with good performance?

Nick
Friday, July 18, 2003

"I worked at a bank a while back.They replaced thousands of clients written in C++ with Java(Swing). The users were happy and experienced better performance. "

By all means let's have everyone base their IT decisions on your singular experience in a single bank. Yeah.

Oh..And Mr. McNealy, don't you have better things to be doing?

Mark Hoffman
Friday, July 18, 2003

Nah, it sounds like Mr Ellison…

19th floor
Friday, July 18, 2003

Hitler.

Simon Lucy
Friday, July 18, 2003

Are you trolling here, or is here trolling you?  You know, it's tempting to write a little aggressively to jolt the zealots.

You appear to be a zealot by listing Java Swing as an alternative to Microsoft.  That shows you're open to PR, because Sun is actually against Free Software and open standards, at least to the point Microsoft is.  Even worse, it invited the federal government into the industry -- read your Cnet article again; Sun and Oracle are clearly blamed for forcing Microsoft to get good at lobbying; previously it shunned politics.

I think this could be a fun topic, examing all our biases, but you've overcompensated for Joel's trolling.

Greg
Friday, July 18, 2003

((in the spirit of the troll))

The initiative for software choice is a good thing for the US since I don't want my hard earned tax dollars to go to build some software that can be used freely by the communists in China and Russia. But as far as goes the communists in these countries and also Munich and Bulgaria and Columbia go, I agree that they should be required to develop open source software with free as in beer open licenses so that we here can make good use of it.

X. J. Scott
Friday, July 18, 2003

Let's see, 17 responses so far (including this one), most saying "don't feed the troll," "this guy's just trolling," etc.

Looks like a pretty successful troll to me :).

Jim Rankin
Friday, July 18, 2003

Hush Jim! I was hoping for a bite on my #17 and now you've done gone and ruined it.

X. J. Scott
Friday, July 18, 2003

As soon as the guy said he switched to Java and had better performance, I tuned out. What a moron.

StickyWicket
Friday, July 18, 2003

StickyWicket, that's not fair.  He didn't say what they were switching FROM.  For all you know before Java they were drawing their UI on paper, screen by screen, and handing it to the user ;P

Mike McNertney
Friday, July 18, 2003

I was reading somehow interested until he mentioned the 80486 and it became clear our troll isn't even among the smartest in the pack.

19th floor
Friday, July 18, 2003

I had a 486 60Mhz run OpenBSD 2.7 for a while back. It was in the closet (i couldn't careless if it burned up, but it was relatively cool).

I had OpenBSD 2.7 firewalling the world from the NATted private network. It ran mpg123 and downloaded more. It didn't run X but I suspected it could. In the pre-pentium days that's about all I could get it to do.

Everything coming out in those 486 days were designed to run sluggishly on Pentiums. Like Netscape and Java.

Li-fan Chen
Friday, July 18, 2003

No, he clearly stated that the clients were previously written in C++.

Steve Barbour
Friday, July 18, 2003

Actually, just to be a pedant, replies along the lines of "Don't feed the troll" aren't feeding the troll.  The point is to avoid getting drawn into the trollish debate.  There's nothing wrong with posting; the danger is in getting involved in the troll's debate.

The Pedant, Brent P. Newhall
Friday, July 18, 2003

Shouldn't the question really be "why do you attack Microsoft"?

Joel wouldn't have to defend MS if people didn't attack it. Seems to me this is like asking "why did you hit him back?"

If /. and the Register could live their lives simply talking about Linux, Mozilla, PHP, et al without raising themselves up by putting others down there wouldn't be nearly so many "Microsoft apologists"

MHO, of course.

Philo

Philo
Friday, July 18, 2003

OTOH, there's nothing wrong with pointing out significant flaws.  Often, I find that fine folks at /. and The Reg are simply trying to point out the negative aspects of Microsoft products and policies.

Yes, they can be overzealous, but they aren't *always* overzealous.  Sometimes they're filling a valuable role.

The Pedant, Brent P. Newhall
Friday, July 18, 2003

OK, but what about the enjoyable practice we have here of playing along with the troll in a obviously stereotypical manner by bringing up Nazis and classic flame wars of years gone by? It doesn't give the troller the satisfaction of a 'bite' from the clueless, yet it gives the signal to all that trolling is in progress in a humorous manner.

pseudo-troll
Friday, July 18, 2003


The original poster had some interesting questions and I'm going to reply to them as I'm sure Joel has other things he'd rather do. Note these are my views and no-one else's.

1)Why do  you defend Microsoft so often Joel?

Answer: Most readers in this forum (including its founder) use MS software most of the time and find it works reasonably well for them.

2)Do you think Microsoft products (MS Access) should be    used for mission critical aps like elections, aerospace,banking apps?See below. 

Answer: Access should not be used for any of the apps you mentioned.

2b) Java

>"After a number of highly publicized failures to build GUIs >with Java, enough people know to stay away from this >world."

You should get out more often. I worked at a bank a while back.They replaced thousands of clients written in C++ with Java(Swing). The users were happy and experienced better performance.

Answer: On my pentium 233 I can always tell the Java apps - they're the ones with the sluggish menus and the inconsistent UI elements.

3)Could you do this with VB/ActiveX/XP (or whatever your calling it today)?

Answer: It would be better to keep the original C++ code.

4)But are  you really ignorant?

Answer: deeply.

5) Do you believe in democracy?

Answer: Yes.

6) Why is Microsoft forcing cable companies to adopt 'TV Foundation' software in their set-top boxes? Why the lobbying?
( http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-1021938.html )

Answer: They don't have the power to force cable cpys to do this. The article says their approach to the FCC was over a different matter.

7) Do you support the  Initiative for Software Choice?(  http://news.com.com/2010-1071_3-1025268.html  )

Answer: The link is invalid. The page you've requested cannot be found. For a listing of our latest stories and features go to News.com.

Bill Rayer
Friday, July 18, 2003

Well even if it is a troll does not mean that everything it says it  is wrong...

Many Microsoft defenders are lazy/dumb programmers or suits who think that laying out a form in VB is "programming" (although I am sure not many such specimens to be found on this board!)

The one thing that Microsoft did with their dumbed down wizards and "VBX/OCX" plug-in controls is unleash an army of wannabees whose only programming skills are of the "fill-in-the blanks" or "layout the form" or "buy and put this control" variety.

Since such dumb people are more the norm than those who really understand what a callback function is  no wonder Microsoft has so many defenders and why much of the software written by this "programmers" is crap.

And please do not tell me that I do not know "Windows". I programmed windows since the time MS had a heating vent for the caption menu button :-) and one had to put in 14 parameters by hand for CreateFontIndirect function :-)

Non-Microsoft Bob
Friday, July 18, 2003

Well, you see, that's what I think a lot of OSS zealots are:
("Many Microsoft defenders are lazy/dumb programmers or suits who think that laying out a form in VB is "programming" )

From what I've seen, OSS supporters include large numbers of people who get off on thinking they're programmers because they can take someone else's code, make a change in it, recompile it, and by heavens, call themselves a _developer._

Again, in my experience, the types of people who use junk third party controls are precisely the same people who love OSS. They lack the expertise to test or assess components or design their own. They often are the loudest in claiming that VB sucks and is for dumb programmers.

You mention one of the Win32 functions and may have used it once, but I suspect you were never a capable developer in Windows.


Friday, July 18, 2003

Jay Cheese, we know this is all anonymous, but please, LOOK AT YOURSELF and what you are submitting here for god's sake. Why would any of you let this kind of crap come out of your brain? Each one of you are so full of shit it's not even funny. If you are really unhappy with what you use or what other's use, it's either really none of your freaking business or a chance for your to fix it and make some money from it. That's it. Now go and bring some freaking bacon home. Get a freaking life!

Anonymous
Friday, July 18, 2003

Heh. I read the whole thread over again to see who "Jay Cheese" was, and who he was talking to... [g]

Philo

Philo
Saturday, July 19, 2003

Never trust someone who has interests  (stocks)  on  an issue.

Yep
Saturday, July 19, 2003

Death squads, WMD and Saddam Hussein

(revised 21st century thread termination rules)

Simon Lucy
Saturday, July 19, 2003

>Well, you see, that's what I think a lot of OSS zealots are:

Well the one thing that no one can say of OSS zealots are that they are dumb programmers! Dumb programmers never  bother reading source :-)

>From what I've seen, OSS supporters include large numbers of people who get off on thinking they're programmers because they can take someone else's code, make a change in it, recompile it, and by heavens, call themselves a _developer._

Huh? The very fact that one has to read through source and understand it before one makes any changes to it itself tends to raise the understanding level of those who attempt to do that.  Yes one starts of by making small changes and recompiling but atleast one is then on the path to better and bigger things. 

>Again, in my experience, the types of people who use junk third party controls are precisely the same people who love OSS.

Looks like I hit a nerve there huh?  Your assertion is so laughable...infact many a times one really has to drag an "OSS Zealot" to reuse someone else's code!

>They lack the expertise to test or assess components or design their own. They often are the loudest in claiming that VB sucks and is for dumb programmers.

No language by itself sucks...I mean gosh I know people who can take the brain dead DOS Batch file language and create miracoulous scripts out of it...it the number of lazy/dumb people who get attracted to it that makes it suck and VB Sucks because of that -- as you have so aptly demonstrated by your views on this issue

>You mention one of the Win32 functions and may have used it once, but I suspect you were never a capable developer in Windows.

OK feel free to assume and suspect :-) I am sure laying out all the VB forms and buying all those third party controls must use up whatever little brain power you have.

Non-Microsoft Bob
Monday, July 21, 2003

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