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What about the Americans?

...or any other westerners?

"For India, a Shrinking Chinese IT Monster"

http://businessweek.com/technology/content/july2003/tc2003071_2518_tc058.htm

"Suddenly, Indians are realizing that their big edge in English skills and multinational investment should hold off China's software threat"

No mention of the Americans in the article.  Guess we've been written off already.

"'In the Philippines, we can't scale,' says Parekh. 'The talent pool is sizable, but not the size of India or China, where it's inexhaustible.'"

Doesn't sound like much prospect for wage growth anytime soon in those countries.

Jim Rankin
Thursday, July 03, 2003

Americans with purely vocational skills in a market where location doesn't matter will have to compete in the global market. I suggest you learn a field and use programming or IT within that field, not programming for the sake of programming. Besides how many Americans have you or the other people on this forum displaced by automating their jobs. Also, I think China is a bigger threat than India not only in IT but in almost everything. It is more capitalistic than India and has more resources. China is where things are going to happen. India is just America's slave labor.

Tom Vu
Thursday, July 03, 2003

"China is where things are going to happen. India is just America's slave labor."

see that dam they are building?  I _love_ the idea...worlds biggest dam, will be able to be seen from space.

makes me proud to be human :)

FullNameRequired
Thursday, July 03, 2003

You DO realize this is one badly thought out and potentially desastrous project? Talking of megalomania...

Sebastian Wagner
Thursday, July 03, 2003

Most of the dams are visible from space.  The great wall, astonishingly enough, isn't visible from space.  Ripley's Believe It Or Not isn't exactly the poster child for fact-checking excellence, so they introduced that persistant turkey long ago.

Flamebait Sr.
Thursday, July 03, 2003

"I suggest you learn a field and use programming or IT within that field, not programming for the sake of programming."

Such as?  I mean, it will need to be something that a well educated Chinese or Indian person can't do from India or China for less.  Let's see:

1. Hairdresser
2. Plumber
3. Construction
4. Custodial services
5. Cashier (soon to be replaced by automated check out scanners)
6. Gardening/landscaping
7. ???

I know some people mentioned requirements gathering, but those jobs can easily be done by H1Bs.

And note jobs in a lot of these fields are already filled by various illegal immigrants.

I suppose you could add Pointy Haired Manager, but they'll probably find a way to outsource themselves, too.

Jim Rankin
Thursday, July 03, 2003

It stands to reason that Americans weren't mentioned.  We don't have that edge in English skills that the Indians do.

Hardware Guy
Thursday, July 03, 2003

"You DO realize this is one badly thought out and potentially desastrous project? Talking of megalomania"

was it?  potentially disastrous I guess, most big projects are....but badly thought out?

Ive seen two documentarys on it, both made by americans, both noticeably anti, but none of the negatives were based around those things....what are they....important for science....ah, thats right, facts :)
most of the negatives Ive heard are conjecture.

<g> even if it _does_ go wrong Im being the sideeffects will be less potentially long-term devastating than, for instance, GE foods or nuclear power...

FullNameRequired
Thursday, July 03, 2003

"
Such as?  I mean, it will need to be something that a well educated Chinese or Indian person can't do from India or China for less.
"

Jim Rankin:
When I say learn a field and use programming or IT within that field, not programming for the sake of programming I mean apply programming to your occupation. A biologist that can program, an economist that can program, a lawyer that can program. I used to be a contract programmer but it dried up and there just are not much challenging opportunities out there, so now I work with financial researchers who can program. My experience with IT has been the IT worker is business illiterate and used by companies to get a result, which is fine if companies pay well...currently they are not.

Tom Vu
Thursday, July 03, 2003

"A biologist that can program, an economist that can program, a lawyer that can program. I used to be a contract programmer but it dried up and there just are not much challenging opportunities out there, so now I work with financial researchers who can program."

Hey, I like that answer!  Doggoneit, now you've gone and spoiled a perfectly good troll. :)

Seems like a lot of developers worth their salt have a job in finance at one time or another, which is probably because to work in that environment you have to understand things other than programming.

I remember one time in my job working in Market Risk Analysis, my financial coworkers were dumbfounded that one of the IT programmers didn't know mathematical operator preference rules!

Jim Rankin
Thursday, July 03, 2003

Aren't H1B's going to get cut in half next year?

Andrew Burton
Thursday, July 03, 2003

Hmm, actually the long-term threat posed by the Chinese is when they start writing code using Chinese characters.  Many languages are embracing Unicode now.

sammy (had a hard enough time with kanji!)
Friday, July 04, 2003

I've been thinking about this a bit lately.  Since I spend time thinking about economics and investing from time to time, I just don't see how the U.S. is going to be able to compete on a global scale going forward. 

It seems that all we have left are managers, doctors, and lawyers.  Doctors and lawyers.  Same as it ever was. 

At the same time, it seems the U.S. is still the driver of innovation.  But we are always quick to out source it.  My fear is that we are not exporting our standard of living, but importing Asia's.

As far as software is concerned, I'm beginning to become convinced that India is going to kick our collective butts, primarily because engineers don't expect the same quality of life, that we do in the U.S. 

I certainly resent it when people claim it is because software engineers in the U.S. are dumb and lazy.  This is not true -- its revisionist.  The software industry exists because of the hardwork of many U.S.  based engineers over the last 30 years, not inspite of it.

I think the only thing that is going to save U.S. industry, and maybe our economy is the falling dollar. 

Unfortunately China has their currency pegged to ours, giving their labor an unfair advantage.  The U.S. should pressure China to float the currency to fairly compete in a world market. 

www.baus.net

christopher baus
Friday, July 04, 2003

Ah... so this is the time our lifestyle is going to end?

I just want to make sure. Because we've been hearing this for 40 years now and I just want to make sure that *this* time it is different.

Rock & Roll Will Rot Your Brain!
Saturday, July 05, 2003

christopher:

Well, I think what we have left are balls-to-the-wall businesspeople, ie, those who have always driven our economy.  That includes not only our big corporate executives, but our entrepreneurs on all levels.

Standards of living exist in the context of business.  Every nation that has taken our technicians, has consistently hampered their economies (read: their businesspeople) with regulation and rigamarole.  India is a good example, where at-will employment is practically non-existant.

People who wish to survive in any economy must take a businesslike approach to their work (ie, sell themselves and broaded their horizons), and not expect the economy to provide them with jobs.  That's institutionalized thinking. 

c++_conventioner
Saturday, July 05, 2003

I would love to see code written in Chinese characters.  Maybe one day this will compile:

&#25972;&#25976; &#20303;&#31243;&#24207;(&#31354;&#34395;)
{
        &#28858; ( &#25972;&#25976; &#30002; = &#38646;; &#30002; < &#21313;; &#30002;++)
        {
                &#22914;&#26524; ( &#30002; % 3 == 0 )
                {
                        printf("&#19990;&#30028;, &#20320;&#22909;! %i\n", &#30002;);
                }
        }
        &#27512; (&#19968;)&#65108;
}

Alyosha`
Saturday, July 05, 2003

Grrr.  Unicode doesn't work so well on this forum.

Alyosha`
Saturday, July 05, 2003

Should anyone be curious what I intended to write, it's at http://cashton.homeip.net/sample.txt

Caveat: my Chinese is atrocious.  Which is all part of the joke anyways.

Alyosha`
Saturday, July 05, 2003

Heheh :) That is kinda funny. Although I have seen a ton of French comments interspersed in C code, I've never seen C actually written using keywords in a foreign language.

jedidjab79
Monday, July 07, 2003

Programs with keywords written in a different language wouldn't compile anyway since the keywords are defined as sequences of character codes, not as natural language terms.

In theory someone could make a (non-standard) French or Chinese C compiler with different keyword definitions but the source code written for such a compiler would be incompatible with standard compilers so I doubt it's going to happen.

Chris Nahr
Tuesday, July 08, 2003

A pre-processor would be pretty simple though, shirley?


Tuesday, July 08, 2003

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