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G5's

What does everyone thing of the new G5's? It looks like they might be back in the running along side PC's again. Well, at least speed wise, maybe not market share...

http://www.apple.com/powermac/

Possible_G5_Dude
Monday, June 23, 2003

1) Without enough users, developers won't write applications.

+

2) Without enough applications  (read: more than Quark, Photoshop and Final Cut), user's won't buy Macs.

=

3) How fast they are compared to PCs is irrelevant (well, assuming they aren't several orders of magnitude faster, in which case they might make good PC emulators).


I think Apple still has a fairly long life ahead of itself as a niche player but it will never be a major contender as long as desktop computing as we know it stays the same.  They would have to invent something Big and New to really get back in the mainstream game.  A lot Bigger and Newer than OS X, which is very nice but was surely way too late.

Mister Fancypants
Monday, June 23, 2003

What software do you feel is missing?

Anonymous
Monday, June 23, 2003

I was hoping the Powerbook would be updated :(

Now I have to decide between the 12" mac and the dell 8500...

Rhys Keepence
Monday, June 23, 2003

"What software do you feel is missing?"

CityDesk.

And by saying CityDesk I'm not so much kissing Fog Creek's collective asses... I'm saying that there are lots and lots and lots of small to mid-sized apps you just can't get decent versions of on a Mac. 

Yeah you have your office suite and your image editor and a pretty good web browser, but what about everything else that fills in the cracks?

Mister Fancypants
Monday, June 23, 2003

"What software do you feel is missing?"

  Delphi - So I could compile my applications to MacOS.

Ricardo Antunes da Costa
Monday, June 23, 2003

??? I _really_ hate to get into a os argument (because I work on all of them at different times and frankly they all suck, the only real variation is the way in which they do so)

<g> but I will...name a small to medium size app type that you do not believe exists on the mac :)

FullNameRequired
Monday, June 23, 2003

I'd only want a G5 if they had 64-bit Linux available for it.

And then I'd have to chose between fantasizing over weather I should get a G5 or an Athlon 64 for my linux power-box.

Flamebait Sr.
Monday, June 23, 2003

The rumors are the Powerbook will be updated, probably early in 2004.

Passater
Monday, June 23, 2003

Just use Virtual PC if you want to run Windows on the Mac.

http://www.connectix.com/products/vpc6m.html

UI Designer
Monday, June 23, 2003

"I'd only want a G5 if they had 64-bit Linux available for it."

And 64-bit BSD isn't good enough?


As a Java developer there's only really one Windows-based program I'd miss if I were running OS X and that's Enterprise Architect (which I suspect may run under VirtualPC). Given that the JVM on OS X is supposed to be the best for running Java-based apps (shared VM amongst all Java apps; Swing apps are apparently fast and responsive) and given the OS' *nix underpinnings it is just too tempting.

I was really hoping they would update the 15" Powerbooks. At least this will save me a few thousand dollars (or delay me spending a few thousand till 2004). The G5 has so many fans to keep it cool so I suspect it'll be some time before a laptop G5 appears. Hmm, maybe I should just pick up a 15" G4 today...

Walter Rumsby
Monday, June 23, 2003

Just use virtual pc is a stupid answer.

Who in their right mind is going to pay twice as much for a computer that emulates their software 10 times slower?

And the horse you rode in on
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

given that we now have 64bit 2hg machiens to play with, Im not sure that 10 x slower will be true anymore :)

FullnameRequired
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

> given that we now have 64bit 2hg machiens to play with, Im not sure that 10 x slower will be true anymore :)  <

Once the 64 bit windows / linux machines hit, though... Hasn't Intel and AMD been coming out with these for the past year?

www.MarkTAW.com
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

mmmm....linux......

I cant stand win95, am able to live with 98, admire NT, hate win2k and almost like XP.
I like os9 moderately...it was a _good_ operating system except for that whole multitasking thing...

osx is ok, but I really only enjoy it because of the cool hardware.

but I _like_ the linux operating system.

whenever something breaks because of a bug in the OS, _I_ can fix i if I want.

_No_ other OS gives me that level of product security.

..mmmmm...64 bit linux...

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Well if fixing operating systems is something you enjoy, go ahead and keep using Linux.  Most though want not to have to bother.

Simon Lucy
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

I _have_ heard that before, but the logic doesn't really hold up.

when I come across a bug in the windows operating system (anyone want to claim there _are_ no bugs there?)
I _have_ to either work around it, stop trying to do <whatever it is> or wait until they fix it.

I have no other choices.

same with any propriety distro.

<g> ahh, but with linux I have a fourth option :)

its not about what I want to do...ideally Id be using an operating system that actually worked, but in the absence of anything like that linux is honestly the best choice for certain types of jobs.

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Unfortunately, not being able to fix the os won't prevent it from braking anyway.

Someone else
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Every OS sucks...a true classic DeadTroll song.

http://tinyurl.com/f3y0

Regards,

Mark
---
Author of "Comprehensive VB .NET Debugging"
http://www.apress.com/book/bookDisplay.html?bID=128

Mark Pearce
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

wow thats a cool video....

Ive never seen these guys before but Im _definitely_ going to have to purchase their cd...

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

FWIW Seems Steve is up to the old tricks again
http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/

Then again, nobody buys Macs for speed, do they?

Just me (Sir to you)
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Considering that Virtual PC is now owned by Microsoft, realistically what are the chances it'll actually get ported to run on the 64-bit Mac architecture?

Chris Tavares
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

"FWIW Seems Steve is up to the old tricks again"

Yeah, never trust a benchmark as a reason to buy a machine.  But the performance tests with Photoshop, Mathematica, etc. seem a little more legit if those are apps that you run.

Jim Rankin
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Does Visual Studio support incremental compiles (happens in background while editing your file), modify while debugging (without quitting the app), and almost setup-less, distributed network compilation (uses Rendezvous to find free resources)?

These are new features for the next version Apple dev tools (Xcode), and just wondering if they're catch-up features or if Apple is really innovating here.

Also, I want to second (third?) the notion that MacOSX is hands down the best development environment for anything Unix, open source, Java, or Unix-y web development.  In other words, pretty much anything you might develop on Linux, but in a much more pleasant, fun environment.

And lastly, if Apple breaks out in marketshare anywhere, it will be in iPods/iTunes or some other consumer electronics area.  In the meantime, the Mac will continue to provide enough margin for Steve to continue chasing the next big thing, which is really Apple's reason for being.

Jim Rankin
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Visual Studio has supported both "incremental compile" and "modify while debugging" (at least for Visual Basic) since somewhere around 1997.

Philip Dickerson
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

AMD OPTRON!!

javasgoodforresumes
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Actually, "Modify while debugging" got lost in the switch to .NET. The MS people couldn't get the feature working in time to hit their ship date.

Chris Tavares
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Some people were talking about small and medium size developers working on Mac software, there's actually a suprising number of them.  We've moved to macs for our business and we've never been happier. 

Some of the utility software has been more difficult to find than on PCs, but once found, we've been very happy with nearly everything we've found.  And we've found just about everything we've gone looking for with any earnest effort.

Its an easy trap to think that just because only 5% of the computers sold last year were Macs that there's a small market and no developers - that's simply untrue.  And now with the new development software and the X11 environment on top of that so you can get access to all kinds of wonderful geek tools.

Anyway, I'm excited to be able to upgrade our computers later this year to G5s, the productivity gains won't be huge as we're not a software development firm, but we do need uptime and a computer that gets out of the way - and that's what Macs do for us.

A happy maclot
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Oh, and I just noticed that Terrasoft, makers of Yellow Dog Linux, will be releasing a version to support 64 bit processing in Linux on the G5.

A happy maclot
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

Just want to say that the letter at the bottom of the haxial page is one of the funniest things I've seen in awhile.

Damn if I was Intel I would sue Apple for false advertising.  Apple's advertising seems to be very effective too.  For the percentage of the market that they have, they certainly get a ton of media coverage.

Andy
Tuesday, June 24, 2003

The processor improvement removes a barrier to choosing Macs, rather than providing a compelling reason to switch.  If IBM is a good supplier, that fixes the current biggest reason not to switch.  So it's not that the G5 needs to be faster than PCs.

I hope they're fixing the usability problems; I haven't seen a good Dock yet, though didn't look recently.

sammy
Wednesday, June 25, 2003

"Visual Studio has supported both "incremental compile" and "modify while debugging" (at least for Visual Basic) since somewhere around 1997."

But Xcode will support these features for Objective C and C, I believe.  As they're not pseudo-code languages like VB, I consider this a bit more impressive.

Jim Rankin
Wednesday, June 25, 2003

Visual Studio's *C++* compiler DOES do incremental and "edit and continue" -- the latter is not implemented for C# or VB.NET yet.

Duncan Smart
Wednesday, June 25, 2003

"Seems Steve is up to the old tricks again"

And here is the point by point rebuttal:

http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/03/06/24/2154256.shtml?tid=126&tid=181

it's definitely the fastest so get over it
Wednesday, June 25, 2003

Can you point out the rebuttel in there?

All I read is them addmitting to taking different compilers that share a front end, optimize one of the backends, and then present the result as an unbiased test of the underlying different hardware platforms.

Just me (Sir to you)
Thursday, June 26, 2003

Duncan,

You're using incremental differently than they are. Your description of incremental compiling (which is the term MS uses) is that you get a faster compile & link phase because of special tricks played by the compiler. Their definition is "compile while you type", which is a VB feature, but not a C++ feature.

Also, Xcode appears to have done away with linking in a lot of cases, which might be a pretty significant time saver.

Even so, C++ is slow to compile. My C# projects can compile 10x -- sometimes even 50x -- as much code in the same time as the C++ compiler.

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Thursday, June 26, 2003

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