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Russian Developers


What say you chaps?
Sounds like an interesting model to me :-).
Besides Startup labors costs should drop dramitically?

Does anyone have any experience with such outfits?
Good, Bad etc??

Responses welcome.

------------------------------------------------

Sample advertisement on Atlanta.jobs news group.

-------------------------------------------------
Russian company of experienced programmers, having 5 years of experience in
such spheres as:
- Web development (PHP, Perl, ASP, HTML, XML, etc) - 5 specialists
- Software development (C#, C/C++, Visual Basic, etc) - 4 specialists

announces prosecution of marketing campaign:

Middle and large project, ordered before the 1st of June, will cost you:
600-800 USD for the month
of work fulltime (8 hours per day)

If you have any questions about this scheme, we'll be glad to answer them.
Contact email: pilot_group@km.ru
-------------------------------------------------

Startup Guy
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Tell me if I'm wrong, but is the cost of living in Russia really so cheap that people can live on $4/day?

Philo

Philo
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

If you don't believe me
subscribe to alt.bestjobsusa.atlanta.jobs it was posted today.

Or.
any of the following:
biz.comp.services,
biz.jobs.offered,
alt.bestjobsusa.atlanta.jobs,
alt.homepages.designtips.uk

I suppose the cost of living in Russia very low incomparision to other parts of europe.

Startup Guy
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Given the labor cost, who really needs VC money for development?

Plow the money in to a good web advert coverage.

Startup Guy
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Dear Philo,
                Just said this elswhere but low cost of livings can be the result of low salaries, but low salaries are never the result of a low cost of living.

                However programmers who think that $600 to $800 a month is equivalent ot $4 a day are definitely overpaid at either figure!

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

I'm sure that price is per developer. 

Let's see...

Total number of interactions with your future dev team: 1.
Number of serious miunderstandings: 1

Best of luck!  I mean, Zheliu udachi!

Ethan Herdrick
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

But for five years of experience in C# $4 a minute would be poor pay!

And are they "prosecuting" market development because they've heard the US is a litigator's Paradise.

Stephen Jones
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

The only people who have 5 years experience with C# are the people who worked on the compiler at Microsoft. Heck, the initial NDA releases didn't start coming out until early 2000!

Chris Tavares
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Umm forgive me if mis-read the original posting,
I believe it says developers with 5yrs of experience, with technology coverage areas include C++, C#, etc.....

Startup Guy
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

If you want to hire these guys, go for it.  However, call me before you have wasted all your money.  I have a few real estate deals you may be interested in.

Christopher Hester
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Why not just use rentacoder.com? If you are going to outsource your software development to somebody you don't know anyway, why would you care where they live?
In Bulgaria (which is in slightly different economic situation from Russia) the software development outsourcing business is booming. The lack of management is a major obstacle though. Without management the chance of misunderstanding is 100%, which translates into costs.

Alexander Chalucov (www.alexlechuck.com)
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

I have friends who are from eastern europe tell me the going wage for a BSc in CS/IT in the more stable eastern european countries is anywhere from USD$17,500 and up a year starting off. Is that true?

Li-fan Chen
Wednesday, June 04, 2003


US dollars may be very very rare in Russia, even today.  So $800 a month may not sound like much, but those are US dollars.

Imagine this scenario:  you're a smart russian programmer, but you can't afford to immigrate to the US (where you can then be unemployed ;-).

You might work for pennies to save up enough to immigrate.

I base this on the stories my father in law has told me about how HE go to the US from Poland (then a part of Russia, It think.).

Clay
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

I remember that in 1997 or so, a big  Canadian company was asking for designers with 5 years+ of experience in Java to develop speech recognition applications (?).

William Williams
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Sounds like a business idea I had.

Send a computer science school to a seriously impoverished country. Obviously the people who attend cant pay for it, so they'll owe the school tons of money that they can never pay back, so they'll work for the shell company you create over there that hires them out as basically indentured servants.

Okay, I was basically kidding, but you might want to think about this model next time someone metions India or you pay your student loans.

www.MarkTAW.com
Thursday, June 05, 2003

Anybody hear of the phrase:

'You get what you pay for'

UI Designer
Thursday, June 05, 2003

They all say 5 years of experience because that is what the hire dweebs put in the ads. 

If a language magically appeared tomorrow and never existed previously there would be tons of people claiming 5 years or 5+ years of experience.

Probably a more honest ad would be "we have heard of your technology and have some books on it."

MIke
Thursday, June 05, 2003

In Poland currently, plenty of CS graduates start working for $250 per month. 'Good money' once you've worked in a company for a few years and proved yourself is $1000.

The very lucky/talented people find work with a foreign company and earn a bit more, but that's a very small proportion of graduates.

Adam in Poland
Thursday, June 05, 2003

>>I base this on the stories my father in law has told me about how HE go to the US from Poland (then a part of Russia, It think.).

Your dad must be very old then. I work with a guy from the Ukraine and have chatted to a couple of his pals, also Ukrainian. I think that by and large their skills are quite good, certainly as good as anything that the UK education system turns out. Remote management can be a problem, but it's got nothing to do with the programmers being Russian. You have the same problem trying to coordinate programmers in the US from the UK. Or programmers located 10 miles down the road.
It's a tempting mistake to think that just because a countries political and economic system was flawed then its' educational system must also be similarly flawed.

martin
Thursday, June 05, 2003

Monthly pay of developers in St. Petersburg, Russia is from 500 USD to 1000 USD, so figures in the ad looks correct. But remember about transaction costs, apartment costs, etc... Average rate russian offshore companies charge is about 20/per hour.

Salaries in Moscow are slightly higher and in smaller cities slightly lower.

smm
Thursday, June 05, 2003

Cost of living in Russia is like cost of living in USA - depends if you are in Des Moines or Palo Alto.  And the range may be even broader.  Of course cars, electronics, utilities and such is pretty much the same.  The diffrence is rent from $20 to $500 or more, restaurants and services.  That is way is a bit hard to compare.  In US is normal for every adult to have a car.  In Russia not so and even if they have the average is way cheaper (especially if you take off the skewing from the mafia-type people).

$600 - $800 is a very good salary in Russia/Ukraine/Bulgaria/Romania, not so in Hungary or Czech Republic.  Gotta keep in mind that with the crash fo the dollar $600 now is like $450 a year ago in terms of euro.

tekumse
Thursday, June 05, 2003

Anyone work at a major company in eastern europe?
How are they treating you? IBM? Microsoft? SAP? Adobe?

Li-fan Chen
Friday, June 06, 2003

First: I'm Russian:)
Second: Russians are good
Third: for $20+ per hour, and even 25, since US dollar is low nowadays

So this ad is BS.
Find the company with real prices.

Slava
Friday, June 06, 2003

I'm running a software development business in SPb, Russia. The rates are starting from $10/hour for a small companies and up to $30-40/hour charged by bigger players with average $20-25/hour.
Typical developers salary is $600-$1200/month.
The advertisement ( the rate and using free e-mail service for contact) makes me think that these are most probably a couple of developers looking for a remote work for a Western company.
Working with companies is more reliable than working with personal contractors (especially when they are on another side of the globe). Of course, you could be either lucky or unlucky in both cases :)

Andrew
Friday, June 13, 2003

Im currently looking for a company that deals with ASP development.
THE DEVELOPERS MUST UNDERSTAND EXCELLENT ENGLISH!

Email me on:
spooksie_uk@yahoo.co.uk

Ill send you the brief. Once you have read and understood the brief email me your quote. If you are

competitive and professional I will pay you for the development. I have currently 4 big sites that need

developing in the future so if you give me a good quote and do a professional job ill forward the other sites

for you.

Thanks for reading, and please reply only to the email as i wont be revisiting this site.

Vinnie
Thursday, February 05, 2004

New site have launched  with a  focus on  Russian programmers and Web Designers www.slavsoft.com. Slavsoft is expecting to launch the Russian version in a next month
Slavsoft is global and has worldwide project resources.

Nick Lidiaev
Friday, May 28, 2004

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