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...the vast majority of modern software...

""As for what to learn, .NET and Java. I know that some will say that I'm being a bit aggressive to limit it to only those two, but they represent the vast majority of modern software "

wow, how many people genuinely believe that?

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

That's what it seems like on Monster...

jbr
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Maybe most of the software being written today isn't 'modern'.

David Clayworth
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

I'd replace one of those with LAMP (Linux, Apache, MySQL, PHP/Perl).

pb
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Boy, I *hope* nobody believes that...

Spaghetti Rustler
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

But yet Java does dominate the landscape for business development and well MS does have the platform locked down so you make the call.

Not to say I would limit myself to any platform or particular way but he has a legit point. But there are plenty of languages and platforms you can choose and make a good living. Last time I checked there were plenty of jobs for C++ and C programmers along with every other language.

trollbooth
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

"But yet Java does dominate the landscape for business development and well MS does have the platform locked down so you make the call. "

I doubt even that is true...?

I wonder whether its possible to get accurate stats on the various languages...
myself, I know one programmer who uses java on a regular basis...he does so by preference because he likes it...
Everyone else I know uses php/perl/c/c++/various scripting languages/some form of basic depending on the task at hand.

AFAIK no one is currently using .net amongst my colleagues....some are considering a switch just cause they can but most have already decided there is no particular hurry...

how are others experiencing things?

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

I work for a small company and I fear that I may loose my job.

Since Java and .NET seem to be in many job postings, I have been using it for ALL of my projects for almost a year now.

I NEED that next job.

--
ee

eclectic_echidna
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

[I doubt even that is true...?]

Well since you know only one programmer that uses Java I guess I am wrong.

trollbooth
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

"Well since you know only one programmer that uses Java I guess I am wrong. "

ya big pillock :)

that was not my point...I was hoping to encourage others to share information about what enviroments they are using/have heard of others using....the result will not be scientific of course but Im interested in (a) whether it shows a bias toward java or .net and (b) how big that bias is

so far we have an equal result :)  1 for each.
care to share your experiences?

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

"I wonder whether its possible to get accurate stats on the various languages..."

Try:
http://mshiltonj.com/sm/ and http://www.tiobe.com/tpci.htm

I can't vouch for how accurate they are, but they give a general sense of trending data.

Double-D
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

interesting links.
They both seem to put java ahead of c++, c ahead of c++ and .net somewhere waaayyy down the bottom..
<g> an interesting question now would be which platforms those websites receive developers from...

Im particularly interested that c is more popular than c++, that feels counter-intuitive (at least to me), im a c++ fan myself and having to go back to c would feel akin to having to remove a limb or two...

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Real Men use assembly language.

Mitch & Murray (from downtown)
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

"Real Men use assembly language. "

:) obviously....I can only dream that one day Ill be able to move on from REALbasic and c++ and hit that dream job....programming MS Word in assembler....

FullNameRequired
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

tiobe is just a google search and the other one uses dice.com. Each site gives an explanation. Dice isn't even used widely in my neck of the woods. More companies use monster, the local newspaper, and directemployers.com. So, the data is interesting but very rough.

Double-D
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Not scientific I know, but I just had a quick look through a daily jobs email I receive (IT jobs vacancies in Australia, daily listing).

A lot of technical IT jobs listed were for application customisation/configuration (Peoplesoft, SAP, Oracle) but there were a few straight programming jobs:

8 Java/J2EE
3 .NET (2 wanting c++ also)
1 .NET and Java
1 Java, c++ and Perl
1 c++
1 c
1 COBOL

Having been scanning the jobs advertised for the last few months, these figures seem typical to me.

LesC
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Straight numbers don't tell the whole story.

Which jobs would you rather be applying for - the 10 jobs in language A with 1000 applications, or the 1 job in language B with 10 applications?

What matters is the jobs/applicant ratio. Therefore you're better off knowing something other people dont, even if it's not as hot as Java, since these days almost everyone knows Java.

And the horse you rode in on
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

Actually, the *VAST* majority of software development is in the embedded space. There it's assembly language. You're lucky if you've got a C compiler. C++ and an operating system? Heaven.

But most of those organizations are busy laying off people, so you don't see the job ads right now. But they'll be back.

Chris Tavares
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

For a variety of reasons, I doubt that jobs advertised online, particularly through job sites or email, correspond at all to the real world. 

SomeBody
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

As an embedded programmer I have used C on all of my projects and a small amount of assembly for bootloaders and interrupt handling. Debugging at an assembly level is also occasionally required. Internal test application are usually built with VisualBasic. At my current employer, they switched from assembly to C about three years ago. I have only seen Java/C++ used on large systems projects.

Whippoorwill
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

SomeBody wrote, "For a variety of reasons, I doubt that jobs advertised online, particularly through job sites or email, correspond at all to the real world."

Bingo!

Most companies will only put an ad in the local newspaper or an online job board when they can't find anyone through other means. Also, many of the jobs advertised on job boards such as dice.com are bogus. If you ask them, most staffing firm recruiters will tell you that they do this on purpose.

One Programmer's Opinion
Tuesday, June 03, 2003

A good deal of the 'runtime' of MS Word (DOS versions) was written in assembler and the actual code of the main app was pcode output from the C compiler.

OEMs received the source of that assembler code in order to port it.

Reminiscenses continued in the forthcoming 'Porting Microsoft Applications  and a Miner's Helmet'

Simon Lucy
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

> FullNameRequired: how are others experiencing things?

All lists are ordered. First items are the most used.

Here in my litle corner we use:
1. Informix 4GL/C for the core apps.
2. SAP ABAP
3. J2EE for almost all web development
4. Assorted script langs: shell script, perl
5. Some ASP and ASP.NET
6. VB & Access VBA

In my spare time, I use:
1. Delphi/C++ Builder
2. Access VBA
3. Java (not J2EE)

The people I know use:
1. VB
2. Access VBA
3. AS400 COBOL
4. C/C++
5. FoxPro for Windows

Paulo Caetano
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

Damn you FullNameRequired. Why do you always present logical arguments to my trolls? I shake my fist at you sir.

But here is what I see: Working in the government sector and from conversations with my recruiter I have seen a rise in .Net jobs, which is incredible because the US government is usually not considered an early adopter. Java jobs were also on the rise because the government is growing in size and they have embraced Java throughout the government. Some of the projects are conversions of older technology that didn't fit all of the user's needs (the ones I've heard of were typically written in VB/ASP). But my view point is skewed because all of those listed above where my strongest skillset (Java, C#, VB).

On a side note my recruiter did mention another trend - Voice over IP conversions. Apparently there is a need in the government and corporations for people skilled in installing Voice over IP hardware and their software (Usually Cisco/Avya combos).

trollbooth
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

[where my strongest skillset ]

should be: are my strongest skillset

Obviously spell check is my weakest.

trollbooth
Wednesday, June 04, 2003

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