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Matrix Reloaded - only read after you see it

I loved it.  At first I was getting ready for dissappoitment...  Too many special effects and trying to make lovers out of Neo and Trinity.  I get the poit, but Neo/Trinity are better in black, not naked and intimate.

But just after the "Club Zion" scene (and I get the point which was trying to be made, people are passionate, rash, emotional, ... - revel in it - but it was too contrived, IMO) , the whole thing takes off.

I loved the French speaking "you come to me without "why"" schtick.  And meeting the architect - it was like 2001 in reverse.  You could almost hear "tick tock" in the background.  Very elegant arguments for predetermination based on physical effects and rebuttals.  Constant conspiracy theories bubble up - who is playing whom?  A complete mind wrap.  It moved so fast toward the end, I wasn't even sure which door he chose.  Gonner have to see it again.  That was too cool.  We only do what we are meant to do.  Ho-my....

Nat Ersoz
Saturday, May 17, 2003

I saw it today.  I thought it started out pretty horribly.  The dream sequence at the beginning of the movie, ripped from context, seemed pretty pointless.  There was a Jar-Jar added to it, in the form of Neo's flunky.  In fact the dialog at the beginning of the movie was just crap, and the fight scenes -- well, we've seen the special effects before, so now it's getting a bit boring and repetative.  Really, they could have cut the first twenty minutes of the movie, with no real loss.

But you're right, right after the club zion / temple scene (probably ripped from the movie Blade, somehow), things began to pick up ... the movie got back into deep philosophical territory, toying around with free will / determinism, and they actually managed to come up with a decent plot, for a sequel.  At the end of the first movie, I thought it was all a wrap, Neo would just continue to kick butt, but actually it's a bit more complicated than that.

Keanu Reeves as superman is sort of lame, tho.  The keymaker, on the other hand, rocked.  The whole doors thing was a great invention that wasn't in the first movie.

I liked the Trinity / Neo as lovers thing, if only for the fact that Hollywood considers a relationship consummated when the guy finally gets the girl, it's nice to see what happens six months down the road.  It was a bit sappy in its whole, "I'd rather destroy all of humanity than lose you" message, but oh well.  The bathroom scene was pretty funny.

Alyosha`
Saturday, May 17, 2003

I liked it. If i understood the last minutes correctly, Neo is a thrown exception, caught for the sixth time in that room with the architect. Or am I reading to much into it?

Eric DeBois
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Eric -- That sounds good to me!

The big thing that's bugging me is the role of the Oracle, who it now seems may be operating for the machines in tandem with the architect.

Is the Oracle, now understood, simply part of the exception handling system designed to make sure Neo is caught and handled properly?  It seems as though all of the rule-breakers naturally come to her and she's in a perfect position to route the mature ones to the Architect.  Thus, the profundity of the Merovingian's, "You don't know the Why."  Neo and Morpheus think it's to get the key to the source mainframe so they can destroy the machines, but really it's to get the key to the source mainframe so Neo can be used to reboot the whole system for another go-round.

Also, what of the Oracle's "intuition"?  Since the Oracle is really a program I don't see how her intuition could be the same as human intuition.  She's still bound by rules.  (Okay, maybe human intuition is, too, in the real world; but I don't think it's supposed to be thought of that way within the movie-world of the Matrix.)  So aren't her predictions only 'usually' correct -- or only 'almost always' correct?  I think the Oracle may just be amazingly good at predicting the future, so that she convinces humans that she actually knows it.  But I doubt whether she can fully account for human choice.  So the machines' exception handling system may be foiled by human free will.

If so, then one big theme in the final part with be a total mindshift for Morpheus, who will have to abandon his firm belief that everything is predetermined.  Humans have true freedom of will -- a freedom that is incompatible with predetermination and beyond the predictive power of machines.  And they will somehow use this to defeat the machines.

I was disappointed by some parts of the film, namely the human party scene, the overdone and repetitive martial arts scenes (and why is Neo now not as powerful against the agents as he was at the end of the Matrix 1, at the same time as Morpheus and Trinity more powerful against them?), and the long drawn out car chase scene. 

The highway chase scene, especially, is somewhat generic and could almost be part of any other big special-effects action picture.  There's enough else in the move that's humanly interesting and intellectually interesting that I think the movie would've been better if they skipped some of the big-scale special effects stuff.  Though I guess maybe that stuff will appeal to a big part of the move-going population, judging by the popularity of other big special-effects movies that don't have the redeeming qualities of the Matrix.

Herbert Sitz
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Another interesting question:  Will some of the human free-will that helps them defeat the machines in Matrix 3 end up coming from Mr. Smith himself?

Herbert Sitz
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Why was neo able to stop the sentinels coming at him. Is it because Everything is a simulation?

Anonymous Coward
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Hehe.  Either that or Neo has become another Luke Skywalker: "May the Force be with you!"

Herbert Sitz
Saturday, May 17, 2003

The Matrix is running itself in a VMWare in a recursive fashion.  =)

GiorgioG
Saturday, May 17, 2003

I enjoyed the matrix, but the plot was too full of holes for me. None of the characters changed much from the beginning to the end. None of them faced heavy decisions "your choices are already made." They basically ran around doing what they were told to do. The main obstacles they faced? Fighting people.

www.marktaw.com
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Too many scenes just seemed to drag on longer than they should.  Trinity falling out the window, Club Zion, the highway chase, Neo fighting Agent Smiths, the conversation with the Architect.  Each could have been cut in half time-wise, retained the same plot content, and made the movie flow much better.  I think since the first Matrix was such a success, the studio gave the Wachowski's a little too much creative freedom and they ran amok.  It coulda been a GREAT movie, as it was it good.  Can't wait to see the next one though.  Is the real world a simulation, or does Neo's powers extend into the real world?  What's Agent Smith going to do now that HE's in the real world? 

Ken Klose
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Well, so far all we know is Neo had some sort of power over the machines in the real world. If the Machines are run by the same construct that runs The Matrix, then whatever power that allows him to control things in The Matrix may allow him to control the Machines.

I don't think those scenes were too long... I think they were too pointless. They added what they had to the plot and then continued on.

Did anyone else get the feeling around 2/3 of the way into the movie that they were summarizing and getting ready to end it? I had that feeling over and over again. When Morpheus was giving his speech, didn't it feel like they were doing flash-fowards to the next movie?

www.marktaw.com
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Re: Neo destroying the sentinels in "real life".

Neo got lucky.  It was the other ship that EMP'd the other sentinels at the precise second Neo was doing his handwavy magic.  His coma is probably due to an electric shock discharged from the sentinel as it was shorting out.

The other idea is cooler, though ... the "real world" is itself a matrix simulation.  Perhaps the next movie they'll "wake up" out of real life and find themselves in another matrix simulation.  Maybe it's matrixes all the way up.

Alyosha`
Saturday, May 17, 2003

Why not... The Architect said they had to have a choice... He didn't say that the choice itself couldn't be a lie.

www.marktaw.com
Sunday, May 18, 2003

Regarding the "why" of the frenchman:

In rural french-speaking canada, 50 years ago, they were used to say that "why" was the question of the devil.

I found the merovingian a very credible 'satan'.

jcm
Sunday, May 18, 2003

While I enjoyed the ramblings of the Frenchman and his wife, their little domestic squabble, his blaseness bugged me. The blase attitude of a lot of people in the movie bugged me.

What was his reason for not giving up the Keymaker? If a character doesn't have a reason they're willing to fight for, the plot comes to a standstill... I don't believe his reason was that strong.

www.marktaw.com
Sunday, May 18, 2003

Well, one could argue that the Frenchman didn't want to give up the keymaket, because he knew that would mean Neo would get to see The Architect, which means the system would be rebooted. I'm guessing he worked pretty hard to get where he was, and didn't want to see it erased in a three finger salute. :-p

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Sunday, May 18, 2003

One could argue that sure... but... should we really be faced with having to figure out what a minor character's motives are for a scene that lasts a half hour?

Remember, the lobby fight scene and highway chase scene are a direct result of this conflict. The Frenchman / Keymaker usher in the final conflict with the Architect. Basically, everything between the Maitre D' bringing them to the table and Morpheus' speech are the domain of the Frenchman.

I wrote a little essay about the movie on my personal site.

http://www.marktaw.com/reviews/TheMatrixReloaded.html

www.marktaw.com
Sunday, May 18, 2003

"(and why is Neo now not as powerful against the agents as he was at the end of the Matrix 1, at the same time as Morpheus and Trinity more powerful against them?)"

When Neo first fights Agents in Reloaded, after the first couple blows he says "Upgrades".  Not sure that Morpheus and Trinity are more powerful.  Specific example?

Jim Rankin
Sunday, May 18, 2003

There are at least two things that lend themselves to the idea that the main characters are still in the (or a) Matrix at the end of the movie:  1) Neo stops the machines; 2) Smith has "possessed" the guy who sabotages the human attack on the machines (does it really make sense that Smith could upload his program into human neurons)?

In any case, I believe the answer to the most important question is:  why do the machines REALLY need the humans?  For as much thought as the Wachowskis put into these movies, surely they didn't really think that the human battery thing would get past their intended geeky audience as being a viable explanation for the matrix.  So assuming that's the case, the answer to why the matrix exists should unravel the other mysteries as well.

Jim Rankin
Sunday, May 18, 2003

"throwing an exception"  -- nice way to put it, but I don't think it's quite what's going on.

They said the original matrices were perfect, but the human mind couldn't accept the idea of a perfect life, so the architect had to make it deliberately imperfect, and give them at least an illusion of choice, else the human mind would not survive.

Personally, I don't ascribe to any religious belief structure, though I've had more than a little 'religious schooling', thanks to various flavors of religious private schools in the USA years ago, where academic classes on religion were required course work. That said, this whole idea of having to provide some choice to the human mind smacks totally to me of the stories about the tree of knowledge in the garden of eden. Do we take a bite from the fruit of the tree of knowledge and learn about truth and reality, or do we remain happy, compliant sheep, ignorant and completely subservient to the total control of a dominant power (the matrix/architect in the movie)?

Interesting philosophical questions. Personally, I liked a lot of the formula action-flick scenes, despite their flaws and all. I thought the Neo/superman allusion was funny. Hey, it's entertainment, and I was entertained. The philosophical considerations, however, are the real 'hook' for me in the story -- are we going to find that there are n-levels of artificially-generated reality, all nested within each other?

Cool stuff, IMO.

Hmmm. Now that I read what I wrote, I think I convinced myself that the "exception throwing" idea may be just the right expression after all--if the architect had to at least allow the illusion of choice, but he still had to maintain some degree of control (via the Oracle, for example), then he's got all the choices 'handled'. He's got all the things Neo can do scripted out already. So yes, Neo can throw an exception, but what Neo realized was that the architect's got all the exceptions handled already. What I took from the story was that Neo realized what he's got to do is to find a way to throw a completely 'un-handled' exception -- something neither the architect nor the matrix are equipped to deal with.

When Neo can do that, perhaps he can crash the system and break out of the layers of simulation and into reality--get outside the system he's been in. He'll have taken a bite of the apple, and will have found a way out of the "garden" of stasis, ignorance, and control.

Well, right now, the matrix or whatever, is telling me to get back to work, so cheers all,

anonQAguy
Sunday, May 18, 2003

Also, what are the conflicts between the machines?  In the first movie, Smith expresses his loathing for the job he has to do.  Specifically, how it forces him to interact with humans.  Now that he is free of that burden, what does he want to do to the programs that forced him into that role for who knows how long?  Do the programs of a higher authority know what happened to Smith?  Are they trying to stop him?

How about the Architect and the Oracle?  Seems likely that they're using Neo each in their own way to get one up on the other.

As to the general complaint about the lack of overt conflicts in the plot:  that in itself is an overriding theme.  The persistent feeling of the characters that there are no choices available to them.

With so many open questions, the Wachowskis have definitely  painted themselves into a corner.  Either Revolutions will brilliantly wrap up all the loose ends, or it will show that they really just got in over their heads.

Jim Rankin
Sunday, May 18, 2003

well, given that the two movies were concieved and filmed at the same time, Revolutions ought to be able to tie up all the ends.

here are some other interesting factoids:

Why does the kid from the first movie give him a spoon? Is he just letting Neo know he's been liberated, or is he sendin a message? "There is still no spoon."

What's with the red candy the Oracle gives Neo? (I think it was red).

I think it makes sense that Smith could upload his program into a human mind... They were going to hack Morpheus in the first movie, weren't they? The mind is just a sophisticated biological machine.

My girlfriend posed the question: Why don't they just lobotomize the humans? I told her that it might be because they couldn't get the same electrical activity in the brain if they did.

My big question is this: What do the machines do with themselves? Do they have their own society that's completely unrelated to The Matrix, or is The Matrix an integral part of who they are? Obvious parallels would be the southern black slaves prior to US's Civil War. What is the AI society like? Where would Agent Smith go once he got the codes to Zion? Another artificial construct, or do the machines have something more physical they do with themselves?

www.marktaw.com
Monday, May 19, 2003

>"(and why is Neo now not as powerful against the agents
>as he was at the end of the Matrix 1, at the same time as
>Morpheus and Trinity more powerful against them?)"
>
>When Neo first fights Agents in Reloaded, after the first
>couple blows he says "Upgrades".  Not sure that
>Morpheus and Trinity are more powerful.  Specific
>example?

Why can't neo just blow them apart like he did Agent Smith in the first movie?

Morpheus, on top of the truck fighting the Agent. He didn't fare nearly as well against Agent Smith from the first movie.

www.marktaw.com
Monday, May 19, 2003

"Why can't neo just blow them apart like he did Agent Smith in the first movie?"

I'll answer it myself... Upgrades.

www.marktaw.com
Monday, May 19, 2003

Regarding the 'Merovingian as Satan' idea: Persephone was the wife of Hades.  She was brought there against her will, which explains her bitterness.  She was also the goddess of crop renewal, which may have been the role she was playing when she set Neo up to recycle the matrix.  The Merovingians were a line of French kings, but I don't know anything else about them nor do I understand their significance here.  Anybody got an idea about that?

I am wondering whether Neo, Morpheus and for that matter any of the people in Zion are in fact out of the Matrix.  The architect said that naturally a certain group of people do not accept the matrix.  Zion seems to be the 'exception handler' that allows them to continue to exist within architect's domain.  Under this theory, Neo was able to stop the Sentinels because he realized that he was still in the matrix.  It may be this realization that put him in the coma.

If this is true, then we still do not know what the Matrix actually is.  No one is out of the matrix, so none of the characters have perspective on it.

Very interesting film.

I thought the idea of free will as explained by the Oracle was a bit thin, however.  She seemed to be saying that free will was not about *making* the choices, since the choices were already made, but instead was about *understanding* the choices.  That sounds tantalizing at first, but I can't see how choosing to understand the choice is different from any other choice (which is already made).

Thoughts?

Ran Whittle
Monday, May 19, 2003

The whole free-will argument in the movie was just "junk philosophy". I watched this movie for what it really is, IMO: amazing special effects and cool fights. I never understood people who found The Matrix to be a religious experience...

Brad Wilson (dotnetguy.techieswithcats.com)
Monday, May 19, 2003

I did not find it a religious experience, but the movie seems to be a solid enough allegory that it is interesting to try to guess at what the writers were trying to say.  The mythological names are cool-sounding, but they also seem carefully chosen. 

Ran Whittle
Monday, May 19, 2003

"Morpheus, on top of the truck fighting the Agent. He didn't fare nearly as well against Agent Smith from the first movie."

Some possibilities:

1) More training/downloading.

2) Neo has been able to teach them how to fight better based on his intuition of how the Matrix works.

3) These agents just aren't as tough as Smith (but they are "upgrades", hmm).

4) (And most likely) If Morpheus wasn't able to fight off the agents as well as he did, it would have been impossible to film one of the longest car chase scenes in movie history :).           

Jim Rankin
Monday, May 19, 2003

Jim - I agree that # 2 is a possibility, as is #4. I don't know how much more downloading/training you can do, I think they'd reached their limit until Neo came along and showed them what could be done.

Ran - I suspect Zion is truly outside The Matrix. I watched an Interview with the actors, and while they gave away some stuff from the 3rd movie, they kept referring to Zion as "The Real World."

Brad - The Matrix was a Joseph Campbell-esque Hero Myth. Joseph Campbell acknowledged that our current culture is lacking in myths and that movies like Star Wars serve that role for us.

Ran - Merovingian got it's name from Merovech (French Mérovée). I believe he fought off the Romans and Atilla the Hun. Legend has it he has two fathers - that his mother, while pregnant, was seduced by a sea creature. Perhaps the implication here is that he is very old.... in a dynastic sense - the Sixth Matrix and he's still around.

www.marktaw.com
Monday, May 19, 2003

Alyosha - "Neo got lucky.  It was the other ship that EMP'd the other sentinels at the precise second Neo was doing his handwavy magic.  His coma is probably due to an electric shock discharged from the sentinel as it was shorting out."

Except that before the sentinels attack, Neo senses that something has changed in the world around him.  He's also able to sense the sentinels approaching, just as he was able to sense agents approaching in the matrix.  If Zion is another level of the simulation, and if we believe the architect that the  simulation is almost ready to crash and needs a reboot, then it makes sense that the illusion of reality on the Zion level might be slipping to the point where Neo can perform his magic on that level as well. 

I like this idea, just because it does absolve the writers of the physical absurdities explained in the first movie (such as humans for batteries.)  It also raises the likelihood that the whole human vs machines war is a lie, with a more complex reality behind it all. 

Tony
Monday, May 19, 2003

Tony - There is one thing that makes me think that Zion is the Real World... And that's because in an interview with Charlie Rose with the 3 main actors & the producer, they gave away some stuff from the third movie AND kept referring to Zion as the Real World.

If they were willing to give stuff away about the third movie, I think they would've been more cautious when referring to Zion if it wasn't the Real World.

www.marktaw.com
Monday, May 19, 2003

Jim Rankin: re: longest car chase scene in movie history, i would have thought "blues brothers" had that one hands down...

ko
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

Blues brothers... definately. I think they actually do hold the record for most cars demolished in a car chase.

Jake & Elwood were on a mission from God, so we could make messianic allegories there as well... Yet BB was a superior movie in many ways.

Yet Blues Brothers 2000 is a much worse sequel than Matrix Reloaded. What's with the modernizing of those classic R&B songs? You have the original musicians, why not use them?

www.marktaw.com
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

[Maybe it's matrixes all the way up.]

Yes, that's what I think. And it seemed like that's what happened at the end -- Neo was able to control the "real" reality with his mind, because the real reality is another matrix.

But the fight scenes just went on and on. The story wasn't nearly as good as the first one, so they filled it up with lots of fighting.

The Real PC
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

What about the whole thing with Agent Smith? He says that he and Neo "share something", that perhaps his code was somehow combined with Neo's.

Isn't it perceivable that this worked the other way around, and maybe Neo now has some of the machine code in him?

Just a though. That might help to explain how he could "feel" the machines....

Tim
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

I thought it was OK - not as engaging as the original. I loved the Zion 'air traffic controller' scene in the bright, white room though.

The double-time fighting did go on and on a bit. Reminded me of the Benny Hill Show at one point...

UI Designer
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

The air traffic controller scene was so reminiscent of Minority Report, which was really just an expansion of the photograph bit in Blade Runner.

www.marktaw.com
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

Its odd, this film seems to get better every time I see it.  I like the action better than I did before.  I think the movie flows better than it did before.  I find it more cerebral and interesting too.  I've seen it twice in theaters and once on my PC (IRC dl / ok quality for the price).

I think the real world is also a simulation.  It explains why Agent Smith (a program) can transfer from the Matrix to the "real world" and Neo's perception of, and power against the "real world" sentinels. Neo says "something is different" as he is awakening to this fact.  Interestingly his awakening is preceded (although not immediately) by receiving the red candy from The Oracle, much as his awakening in the first movie was preceded by receiving the red pill.  I think that was subtle but deliberate.

The thought that really blows my mind came while I dwelt on what Agent Smith said: "we share something".  It clicked - Neo isn't human - he's a program!  In the words of The Architect, he's the sum of a remainder.  Not human, not flesh born of some genetic process, but a program generated by some algorithm supposedly created by The Architect.  How else could his appearance, and actions be so incredibly predictable, repeatable, and occuring at regular intervals it were the result of his human (genetic) traits?

If we follow this thought through, then that means that ALL of the humans both inside The Matrix and in Zion are also programs.  All part of a large simulation.  But to serve what end?

In the first Matrix movie Morpheus said the purpose of the Matrix was control.  What if the subjects being controlled weren't humans, but were the machines (or at least the AI programs running them).  Humans created AI, AI got out of hand, there was a war, but the humans won.  They won by creating a computer simulation of the world into which they could download the AI programs; convince those programs that THEY in fact had won the war and set them about the task of preserving that victory by controlling the simulated humans.

This of course leaves the questions who (or what) is The Architect?  Is he a program or human?  If he's a program, is he also trapped inside of the prison, kinda of like a warden?

Ken Klose
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

The architeqe said that love and hope are 2 very predictable traits in humans. and he also said the previous six "neo's" all picked the same. so i think the door he went in was the same one the other 6 chose. to give up his love for trinity and drop his hope for saving zion would have been something the matrix wasn't expecting. the matrix is trying to anticipate what he is going to do. and they said throughout the movie that there have been a lot of previous matrix's so i think the have predicted what most "neo's" would do. have love and hope and be guided by it.  and as for the real world.. zion... it must be another matrix. because it was said that they have destroyed it many times before... where is the evidence of it. none of the humans have any recollection of it (some would assuming that a "neo" decided to save the real world and not trinity) thats my bit. its a matrix within a matrix within a matrix within a matrix.

i have you
Tuesday, May 20, 2003

There is an aspect of this movie that strongly resembles Buddhism.  People are trapped in a cycle of death and rebirth and the key to getting out of it is understanding.  The Oracle seems to be guiding each incarnation of Neo closer towards the Understanding that it takes to break the cycle and lead others out of it.  Practically the first thing we hear the Oracle say is "Know thyself".  It is presented in Latin, written on the wall, and translated for us.  Something so clearly highlighted must be important.

I think that this sixth incarnation of Neo may actually be the first to love Trinity.  The Oracle may have set that relationship up so that at the critical moment, Neo would not choose the door that led to the repopulation of Zion.

It is difficult for me to accept that Neo and everyone in Zion are programs.  There is a theme here about the relationship between humanity and machines and the level of interdependance between them.  For that to work, they would probably have to be humans.

Ran WHittle
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

"There is a theme here about the relationship between humanity and machines."

I agree.  Its made often, especially when the white-haired guy talks about Zion's machines.  Sorry - new tangent:  All of the Zion scenes could have been so much better, this one included.  At least the white haired guy played the part well - elderly statesman, well worn to worn out, sympathetic, knowing...

But, surely, people know how to maintain machines.  Grimey guys walking around with wrenches and clip boards reading guages and testing waste water.  I've worked in boiler rooms before - the ambivalence regarding the machine's function was disappointing...

But, yes, somewhere there is going to resolve a synthesis of man and machine.  That will (likely) be interesting...

Nat Ersoz
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

FWIW I've revised my little Matrix article:

http://www.marktaw.com/reviews/TheMatrixReloadedv2.html

and I've linked to this thread.

www.marktaw.com
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

"Jake & Elwood were on a mission from God, so we could make messianic allegories there as well... "

Although Jake & Elwood, with the dark suits and shades, dressed more like agents.  Hmm...maybe this is another source the Wachowskis borrowed from.

My favorite part of the car chase is when the police dispatcher says "The use of unnecessary force has been approved".

Jim Rankin
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

From marktaw's sight:

"The whole door on a floor you cannot get to except under these specific circumstances seemed overly contrived to me. It was also solved in the time it took the Keymaker to explain the problem."

When Neo talks to the Oracle, he refers to this way of getting around as "back doors".  As we all know, a back door in a computer program is a secret way to do something you normally shouldn't be able to do.  So the Matrix back doors are like cheat codes in video games, where you get to a different point in the game without going through the levels you normally must go through.

So I didn't find it surprising that you can "cheat" in the Matrix to get from place to place if you know how.

Jim Rankin
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

" But, surely, people know how to maintain machines.  Grimey guys walking around with wrenches and clip boards reading guages and testing waste water.  I've worked in boiler rooms before - the ambivalence regarding the machine's function was disappointing..."

Perhaps an allusion to how the war started in the first place.  Humans stopped caring about how the machines worked, and thus were taken off guard and reacted badly when the machines rebelled.

Jim Rankin
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

In the first movie, agent Smith compares mankind to some kind of virus.  Therefore, I find it funny that once he's been "killed" by Neo, he becomes a virus (I mean, he can replicate himself and he is no longer controlled by the matrix!).  We also heard him say that he wanted to be out of the matrix... Has he become some kind of Pinocchio that dreams of becoming  human?

Also, I did not understand this scene where the human posessed by Smith cuts his hand with a knife. Is it to see if he can shed blood? Or to test his weapon? Or to infect Neo with his blood?

France
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

Jim - My favorite part has to be Cab Calloway singing Minnie the Moocher, and the chase scene through the mall. Did you know the prison guy that's giving Jake all his stuff is Frank Oz? That's the reason they gave him the condoms: "One condom, unused..... one soiled." Just to hear those words coming out of Frank Oz's mouth...

A back door isn't exactly like a cheat... It's a way the programmer leaves for himself to get in even once the program is in production.

A back door in Windows would mean the programmer could type connect to your Windows environment as an administrator even if your computer is locked down and password protected.

My problem was with the plot, how they got there. It was very... cheap 70's fantasy movie. "Contact the Oracle and she'll tell you how to find the keymaker so you can complete your quest."

Once the Keymaker tells you what the obstacles are to get to the back door, they're solved... Though I think you have to tackle them in the video game.

Re: the machines

I kind of wonder how the machines got built in the first place... Where were those gigantic metal things created? Did they mine and create the metals? How did they tool them?

And the hovercraft... Remember, anyone who comes out of the Matrix only has knowledge of late 20th century technology. We don't have the know-how to build a city near the core of the Earth, or hovercraft that float in the air like that.

www.marktaw.com
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

The seeds for Zion, whether they be the hovercrafts and machines, or simply the know-how and means to build them are supplied by the machines.  Either directly or through Neo, the necessities of starting Zion are given to the people The One choses from The Matrix on each iteration.  "How could someone start Zion?" was a good question after the first movie.  Morpheus said "there was a man born inside who could remake The Matrix as he saw fit.  It was him that freed the first of us.".  But if that initial person awoke, and were flushed down the sewers as Neo was, without a waiting hover craft to rescue him, he surely would have died, not founded Zion.  Reloaded answers that question.  Clearly, the first inhabitants of each Zion are aware of the situation, and agree to keep it a secret to ensure the survival of the human race.  I'm left to wonder though, how many members of the "council" were in-fact among the original people freed at the start of the iteration? The council consists only of people much older than the rest of the population of Zion, the movie deliberately draws attention to this fact.  And although I know Morpheus said that when The One died, The Oracle prophesized his return, I can't help but wonder if the old councilmen who has that chat with Neo, isn't The One from the previous iteration.  After-all, The Oracle doesn't tell the truth, only "what you needed to hear".

It is an interesting explanation for why the council contradicts the Commander, and sends two ships to help The Nebuchadnezzar.  They know what's really going on.  Or it could be that they are just swooned by the Oracle's prophesies where as the Commander is not.

Ken Klose
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

marktaw -

"And the hovercraft... Remember, anyone who comes out of the Matrix only has knowledge of late 20th century technology. We don't have the know-how to build a city near the core of the Earth, or hovercraft that float in the air like that."

really excellent observation! Assuming it's not just BS in the story and there's some logical grounding for it being that way in the story, then your observation reinforces the proposition that what they all **thought** was a reality outside the matrix, is in fact within the same matrix or possibly another matrix of larger scope within which the first matrix was nested. Back to the recursion idea mentioned above.

anonQAguy
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

And along the same lines, how did they create the machinery that allowed them to hack into The Matrix?

I guess both a hovercraft and human/matrix interface could be scrounged and put together from leftover parts, or stolen. The sentinals float, maybe whatever makes them float makes the hovercraft float too?

www.marktaw.com
Wednesday, May 21, 2003

"And the hovercraft... Remember, anyone who comes out of the Matrix only has knowledge of late 20th century technology. We don't have the know-how to build a city near the core of the Earth, or hovercraft that float in the air like that."

This largely depends on when Zion was actually created.  On the one hand, a theory that I heard about why there are so many people of color in Zion is that the machines wiped out the most technologically advanced areas first, meaning most of the people who survived were from the third world.  These people must have preserved enough technology to create Zion.

If the Architect is telling the truth, and Zion has been recreated several times, Zion's technology must have come from the machines.

Jim Rankin
Thursday, May 22, 2003

Another theory I heard is that people of color are more discontent with their lives than white people in general.

"Not coincidentally, most of the people in Zion seem to be black or Hispanic, which makes perfect sense: If you're a white suburban Matrix resident, driving your Matrix SUV to your Matrix golf club, why doubt the nature of reality?"

Perhaps they built Zion before the machines rounded up the last human, and somehow, the technology stuck around? Then it was just a matter of picking up the, err... instruction manuals and figuring out how to use it?

"There was a man born inside the Matrix that freed the first of us." Neo isn't the first One - and he had to choose 23 people to repopulate the world... The man born inside the Matrix was the previous One, and those he freed were the 23.

www.marktaw.com
Thursday, May 22, 2003

... so of course they know how to use the machines, he teaches them and/or they know from having been liberated before, like Morpheus and Trinity know how to use them.

www.marktaw.com
Thursday, May 22, 2003

NYC - IMAX Reloaded - June 7th -  Let's Meet

The Matrix reloaded is supposed to come out in IMAX format in June. I say we get together June 7th, see the show, and discuss how much more it sucks in IMAX over dinner.

http://www.marktaw.com/forum/read.php?f=1&i=24&t=24

www.marktaw.com
Thursday, May 22, 2003

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