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Open Letter:H1B's WTF??

Ok,
I humbly seek opinions on this subject matter from
the very enlightened members of this excellent forum.

I mean, not to seem anti-capalist or anything....
but 3 million H1B visas seems like a lot.

The premise here being, all systems man made or otherwise have predetermined carrying capacities(breaking points), beyond which the system fails.

It seems no one remembers much of their macro-econs.
capital flow diagrams etc...

Shamil the Painter
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

What's your point?

Adrian

Adrian Gilby
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

As I recall, the president of Cirrus (or was it Cypprus?) Semiconductor was being interviewed on NPR about 2 years ago.  Specifically, he was asked about his experience when he moved manufacturing operations to Thailand.  He had tried in the past to keep manufacturing in the US, and was known for this, however eventually found that to remaing competetive in the memory market he had to move operations overseas.

What I recall as best I can was a statement that went something like "if someone else can do your job for 1/10th the cost, and you do not provide a 10x improvement in efficiency over the lower cost worker, then you will be displaced."

The same can be said for software and hardware development.  Only we have certain advantages over semiconductor line workers.

. Line workers don't have much chance to innovate.  Their jobs are predefined in operations procedures.
. Programmer productivity levels have large disparities in efficiency, line worker comparisons do not.  We can compete by working "smarter", having more talent, working harder, more dillegence, etc.

Personally, I'd rather see H1B's come here than have software jobs go there.  I welcome them and enjoy the chance to compete with them and team with them.

They come here for a reason: opportunity.  I suggest we take that to heart.

Nat Ersoz
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Well stated Nat...
However is it really a factor of engineering efficiences
or is it cost of living?

Most developers in NYC for instance have zero say interms
of how much they have to pay in rent, and to merely live.

So how do they compete with developers in let's bulgaria
making $7K per annum?

Last time I checked even  basic state level colleges
cost more than $7K per annum.

Is it not similar to product dumping?

Also why isn't this happening to MD's or JD's?

Shamil the Painter
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Shamil may have a point here.

Look at this:

http://www.automationmatrix.com

If I didn't know better it would almost seem
as if IT is under some sort of concerted assult.

Needs future study.

XP Man
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

> Also why isn't this happening to MD's or JD's?

MD's and JD's are well established "professions" that have developed the proper social mechanisms (high barrier to entry, just to name one) to maintain an (un?)reasonable balance in their profession. Remember though that it wasn't that long ago that quacks and witch doctors were the norm. This is no different with software.

Most programmers (ok, managers too) don't want to do "requirements", "prototyping", "design", "testing", "planning","delivery",  etc... It's the soft skills combined with the hard skills that gets projects out the door. The past few years have been the exception, and not the rule.

Software Engineering is also a very young profession, and it remains to be seen how the market for software folks will evolve.

Now if only we can generate the same religious fervor around creating a true software profession as the open source followers have..... :-)

James Wann
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

I know you probably didn't mean it, but your post seems to imply that foreign workers pay less attention to "quality software engineering" [insert buzzword].  My experience in college and on the job is the opposite, if anything.

Sure, it's a bit of a culture shock to be the only American native on a dev team, but I can't see how this could be negative.  Without the (dubious) "social mechanisms" you speak of, the tech sector enjoys quite a meritocratic flavor.  Given that, if anything, econ tells us that the proper allocation of interested & talented people is always *more* efficient.

Still, this doesn't answer the ultimate "why."  Asia has an order of magnitude more people than we do, of course, but even more pertinent is the fact that several of their cultures seem better attuned to producing high achievers in technology/engineering/etc. than ours.  You could say that we have the luxury of focusing on more theoretical or "soft" sciences, or point to a difference in the way math/science is presented in early curricula, or look at variations in parental roles, but not being a sociologist I'm not qualified to pick one.  (Hey, as long as it means the Seattle area has great Thai & Indian restaurants, I won't complain!) 

Besides, Asians aren't the first group to overachieve in this fashion; rewind a few decades and people were saying the same things about Jews, in a much less politically correct way to boot.

Richard Berg
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

I think they should do away with the H1B program and just start fast-tracking software people through the regular immigration process.  I've heard to many complaints that the H1B people are basically indentured servants.  It bothers me though because, yet again, it lessens the demand for my talent which will eventually lessen my salary.  Selfish, I know.

those who know me have no need of my name
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Let me be a pain, and run this idea past you all....

The world cannot afford to pay high salaries of IT workers, especially when everything is linked to IT one way or another.
High salaries were Ok when it was a developing field and experts were hard to find. Now its an established field and it needs to be affordable. Most H1B's I have worked with have been Ok, not much initiative though (mainly due to being from out of town and the new kid on the block etc), but Ok at working the cogs. This is how businesses like it, one highly paid initiator, and an army of drones (not just H1B's) working the cogs, normally we find this mentality in production lines, and it seems it can be applied to software engineering in the same way as engineering auto parts.

Is this the future? Or am I way out of line?

Tony
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

And, by the way, most H1B's will work long hours and are very motivated because (in my opinion) the west is the best (thanks Jim) and they like it here!

Tony
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Median earnings for electrical & chemical engineers are around 65K right now.  For us programming types the median is just slightly higher.  I predict, however, that we are in for a HUGE drop.  Here's why:

1.  Too many people jumped on the bandwagon.  The number of training firms in my area has increased tremendously.  They are offering 1 & 2 year programs in various IT functions. 

2.  Local colleges and vo-techs have actually been listening to industry complaints that grads don't know how to program.  They will start to actually produce capable programmers in the near future.

3.  Traditionally popular college majors have lost students who are attracted to the high salaries currently offered in IT.  This will result in a larger supply of programmers. 

4.  There is no formal barrier to entry for a career in IT.  I know PhD physicists that have become programmers and I know diesel mechanics that have become programmers.

5.  H1B?  Some effect, but I have no idea how large or small.

6.  It was easy enough for companies to transfer entire production plants overseas.  Think about how easy it is to transfer software development overseas.  Don't give me that communication crap either, most Indians I know speak better english than I do, and industry has been able to pull it off even when the host country couldn't speak english. 

7.  The west doesn't have a monopoly on brain talent.  You will have to compete with people that are just as good as you, but are willing to work for $7/hr.

The pendulum is starting to swing back. 

those who know me have no need of my name
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

["I think they should do away with the H1B program and just start fast-tracking software people through the regular immigration process. "]

Agreed. The problem with the H1B program is that the workers are indentured servants who cannot negotiate or even quit. These are the aspects which cause the greatest problems in the profession. Allowing more developers to emigrate would answer any "shortage" problems professed by the employers without creating an underclass of slaves.

BTW: I would not be obsessed with the idea that all IT jobs are going overseas. There *are* risks involved with this type of outsourcing (e.g., nuclear wars in southern Asia) and not all businesses are oblivious to these.

skautsch
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Shamil,

Listen carefully, I'll speak slowly so you can understand -
1) H1-B guarantees same wage as average worker in that position. The application costs a couple of thousand dollars. The company has to pay airfares. The company paid my relocation costs. It cost them almost $10k extra to take me over other applicants.

2) A company will ALWAYS make redundant those workers who add least to the bottom line. Country of birth is NOT a consideration. Economics is. The worker who makes the most money for the company will keep his job.

3) If your ex-colleagues have valuable skills, they will easily get another job. Since their positions were "taken" by H1-B holders, they must be intelligent, well educated people who can obtain work elsewhere.

4) If you don't bring the people to the job, the job will move to where the people are. Ever heard of India?

" Why would companies pay higher wages when they can get much cheaper labor from overseas? "

Get your facts straight before you make statements that sound racist and xenophobic.

FenceJumper
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Hello Gents,
all excellent points.
My little contribution follows:

Look at the figures at the end of the article...
Seems very predatory if you ask me...
If it were any other industry it would be called dumping.

http://www.computerworld.com/managementtopics/management/outsourcing/story/0,10801,71292,00.html

One of the things that gets lost in the noise is that ... all these countries essentially had socialist frameworks. i.e. higher education for the  workers was definitely state funded. Even tuition costs for a decent state college costs more than what these chaps make annual.

So how can stateside IT folks hope to compete?

Humble Developer
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Good article Humble Developer.
It's hard to argue against facts....

Casual Observer
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Microsoft is currently lobbying the Washington state lawmakers to increase the number of H1B visas it gets per year.
They are already 35% H1B for the entire company. Washington's unemployement is getting close to 8%. Microsoft has over 50 billion in petty cash laying around so they aren't stuggling and financially have to import cheap foreign labor or ship programming jobs overseas to survive.
To be a american, and work in IT these days is harsh thing

LegalDonor
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

H1Bs do not take jobs away! Studies have shown that there's a net gain of jobs.

[Microsoft is currently lobbying the Washington state lawmakers to increase the number of H1B visas it gets per year.
]

FenceJumper
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

[Seems very predatory if you ask me...

If it were any other industry it would be called dumping.]

I don't think so. As I understand it, dumping is selling a product at below cost because you have excess capacity. These are the actual costs. That's just called competition.

David Clayworth
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

FenceJumper,
At the risk of seeming xenophobic...
Do you have any figures to substantiate your claims?

3 million H1B's seems like an awful lot of bodies floating around in the system.

So who's jobs are they taking then?

Jim Fyre
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

David you make an interesting point.
I would submit that perhaps a finer level of granularity
is called for in your analysis.

Actual cost of producing engineering talent outside non-eurpean countries(exception being france), in reality very
comprable to the educational costs for an engineer here in the US. 
However one point that's lost in the fog, is that
many of these same countries,  have what is known as
free or heavily subsidized education at the college/university levels and beyond.  In other words,
the true cost of producing an engineer in lets say india
is in all realities equal to what costs here.

However given the fact that these actual costs are
paid for by the home govnerments,  the rational
conclusion is that indeed what one has is "price masking",
or put a different way, selling at well below true cost.

If this isn't dumping, then WTF?

Again emphasis being on "True" actual cost of the end product.

cheers

[[If it were any other industry it would be called dumping.]

I don't think so. As I understand it, dumping is selling a product at below cost because you have excess capacity. These are the actual costs. That's just called competition]

Doug G
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

My take on H1B.  I have no problem with the concept.

However... it all comes with a strong downside.  At a point where IT had labor problems, instead of being forced by the market to change the employment practices that caused these shortfalls, instead was allowed to start bringing in overseas workers. 

For example:  insane hours, the over-30-over-the-hill syndrome, demanding unrealistic experience levels, etc.  When it gets to be too much, Americans just choose another career path (and are lost to IT). 

My concern isn't so much salary levels as quality of life issues.  If H1B's were limited to 40 hours a week, think how that would help bring HR expectations down to earth.

Any position which would be filled by an H1B should also be required to be filed with the state unemployment office for 90 days, to make sure that no qualified Americans (including women, minorities and those over 35) are being passed over.  There also should be a mechanism for challenging the job requirements - ie 10 years Java experience.  They also would need to show that the H1B hired had the required experience.

Contrary Mary
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

I think i'm missing something, because everyone seems to be assuming that a huge increase in IT/development people will mean a huge increase in GOOD IT/development people.  I've worked in this industry for 3 years now, and i'm amazed at how many unskilled and mediocer programmers are making 50-60k hacking out web apps or supporting what they call a network.  In fact, when its time to hire, Its painfully difficult to find an exceptional programmer.
    If I were some marketing guy that picked up javascript to hop onto the dot-com bandwagon, I would be worried now.  Problem is, 5 bad developers won't be as productive as I am (or someone as or more skilled).  So, who cares if there are tons of new hacks willing to work for a little less?  Maybe 1% of them will actually be skilled, and i'll get to work with some bright people. 

Vincent Marquez
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Vincent,
perhaps you fail to take into account, the people
actually making the hiring decisions.  Corporate
cloud mnders couldn't tell the difference between
half baked and well done if it were shoved down
their throat.

In otherwords... a good developer is one
that is completely compliant. 
I'm sure you've heard terms such as "herding cats",etc...

Well with H1B holders they get both complaince and
cheap labor to boot.

XP Man
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Contrary Mary's point on quality-of-life issues (40 hour weeks, etc.) is relevant to this discussion because, again, H1B's cannot negotiate the way the rest of us do and they cannot simply walk off a job. The present mechanism ends up as an attack on many aspects of our professional existence.

Why not, instead, simply raise immigration quotas for technical workers? This would answer the need that the Microsoft and other employers **say** they need to fill (shortage of developers).

Of course, the need that they are *really* trying to fill is the need for large numbers of indentured servants who cannot argue about working Saturdays and overtime. This hidden agenda of theirs is what needs to be forced into the open, and this might be done by giving them what they *say* they want - more developers.

skautsch
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

There are a lot of difficulties in moving programming off shore, not to mention administration. Since I'm in administration, I guess my job is safer.
I used to work for a financial Fortune 100 company. I used to get requests to add accounts from off-shore places. I used to just throw them in the garbage bin. These folks are in another country and may not even speak English, so it is very difficult for them to complain, all anybody knows is that they seem to be having a problem with these off-shore developers.

Anyone worrying about this stuff - organizing, or joining organizations is the only solution. The Programmers Guild and other associations are doing things that help American programmers/admins. The more people they have on board, the more successful they are. So if you want to help fix this, organize. For our profession, that would tend to not be a union, but a professional association like doctors and lawyers have, namely, the Programmers Guild.

Rex T.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Nobody gives a fuck about IT workers getting replaced by H1Bs. Just like nobody cared about auto workers, garmet workers, steel workers, etc.
Globilization only sucks when you are the one getting fucked

Friends
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

So, perhaps we need to:
1. Be more efficent and cautious with our tax dollars. Focus more internally.
2. Setup a social system that provides the opportunity for "free" education to students.

We should do this to compete. My opinion is that #1 will not happen because we are too focused on unknown agendas and inefficencies. We just throw money around to ppacify people and groups. Little is it realized that the inefficency costs us in opportunity or needed spending elsewhere. #2 probably will not happen because education is actually a business in both the private sector and in the public area. The states actually profit from it. Go to a college bookstore to understand.

It's too bad. There is a lot that could be done. The problem (or part of it) is people are not willing to throw off their individual ideals or better efficency and prioritized spending.

I'm not saying democracy is bad, only that more voters should realize this. Just like most of us would like no taxes, we allow it because we know it is needed. So should it be with our spending and sacrafice of things.

Friends
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Friends..
Fine analysis for the gentleman/gentlewoman.I concur.
I mean all the data is out there....this isn't about racisim or xenophobia.
Fact is everyone can't live in the US no more than everyone can become a Physician.

Everyone seems to know someone that's unemployed. That in itself says alot.

We need to stop being PC while those unaccountable elected officials give away the store.

I don't know about you guys, but I can't live on 9K a year here.
So using the argument of competiveness is not only ubsurd, but down right treasonous.

If a sovereign entity undermines our national econonic viablity we go to war.

If a company does the same damn thing, we call it globalization.

WTF?

Larry From Queens
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

In a comment above, "[Asian]...cultures seem better attuned to producing high achievers in technology/engineering/etc. than ours. ". This is broken logic. Smart people emigrate where there are the best opportunities. That happens to be the USA right now. So the fact that emigrants are achieves is not a reflection of the whole culture.
That said, here is a different angle that no one ever brings up in these discussions.
To get an H1B visa, you have to have a degree. It is unfair to take the best-trained and educated people from a poorer country like India and allow them to come to the USA. The “brain drain” hurts these countries and keeps them poor. Maybe that is what the US government wants?
It is true that the governments in India, Africa and the Far East do not encourage entrepreneurs. They really should. That is a totally different discussion.
The H1B program hurts the country these workers come from much more than it hurts the US economy. So maybe H1B visas are good for us U.S. programmers. Instead of an industry wide competition, we get competition for individual jobs.

Doug Withau
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

I can't live on 9K either... but right now it is zero K.  Been searching for the next contract for about 2 months now.  There just doesn't seem to be that much available, and I don't think it is all because of H1B's.

They are all over the board... just like us... when it comes to differences in ability.  If a company decides to hire the lower percentages, I believe they have that right and deserve what they get. 

I don't really think there are that many IT managers out there that really care about productivity or quality.  It is much easier on their brains to just count the number of widgets.  More widgets per buck seems a good deal, and there is no sense in fighting that kind of mentality.

Joe AA.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Joe AA.,

I don't know about you, but resistance is never futile!
Passivity and inaction are very dangerous things.
GMeAF..ing Break.

Again keep your eyes on the thread, and try not
to obfuscate too much.

People need tangibles we can all rally around,
not this etheral beyond our control nonesense.

With all due respect naturally :-).

Larry From Queens
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Doug Withau,

your logic is completely convoluted...

So redeem yourself  please....

What's this country coming to.

Since when do we roll over and accept the dictates
from any body?? We're F..king Americans

There's a problem here and we all know it.

Larry From Queens
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Pleaseeee, I just got done working for an immigration law firm, they have all kinds of under the table strategy's for "hiding" jobs and getting resumes thrown in the trash while no one is looking..so they can get paid for a few more H1-B's to process. H1-B's were only necessary because there was a job SHORTAGE back a couple years ago, now there isnt...so why are we still bringing people over to be virutal slave laborers that drive up the cost of housing but lower the common wage????



[H1Bs do not take jobs away! Studies have shown that there's a net gain of jobs. Take your xenophobic shit somewhere else.]

Ben
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Hmmm, just visted these URL's
Houston I think there a huge problem...

Take a look at this:
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

Netbui
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

It's tough to remain unemotional about the H1B issue.  It would interesting would be to see some statistics as to the following:

How many H1Bs programmers are there relative to resident programmers?  Is it 1 out of 10?  1 out of 5?  I can handle 1/10.  That has limited potential to disrupt the IT wage scale.

What ratio is the typical wage actually paid to a H1B (not what's "quoted") relative to a resident?  Do they make 100% (the legal standard)?  Is it 80%?  50%?  This needs to be an apples-to-apples comparison.

Does anyone know the answers to these questions?  Some people (such as myself) find it difficult to get mad at the H1B "problem" unless we have some data.

Bill Carlson
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Ben... in Long Island?

thisandthat
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

It's fun watching you guys writhe against the inevitable. Hey folks, the writing is on the wall. Give it up and retrain in something you can make a living at. That's what I did and it was the right decision.

I got my MS at a brand name university, graduating at the top. Went to work for a big name company designing chips. Quickly worked my way to Senior Chip Architect and was responsible for 6 popular VLSI chips the size of the 486 as well as a number of smaller ones. H1Bs came in, helped train them. Got laid off. H1Bs stayed. No worries, mate -- went to work on Apps in a popular field. Did well -- real innovative, worked well, very stable, customers nuts about the software.  Business grew. Then competition came in, made a pretty much exact copy of the software by sending a copy overseas and telling them to duplicate it. They then massively undersold us and we lost market share and then quietly folded.

Now I'm working as an Apprentice Millwright. Unionized, full benefits. As an apprentice my salary is around 70k. When I make it to Master Millwright, that will bump up to around 95k. If I work one minute over 8 hrs in a day, I get paid for 15 minutes of overtime. I live in a nice area with a low cost of living. I am not stressed out, my health has improved and I have plenty of time for mountain biking, long vacations, and landscape oil painting.

Let the foreign nationals take the development jobs folks! Theso jobs are no prize plums and you will not be rewarded for your heroic efforts. You can do a lot better elsewhere if you are creative and analytical. Quit and move to a sector where your talents are appreciated, free of pointy haired bosses and fatuous divas. You'll be glad you did.

Ed the Millwright
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

FenceJumper to Shamil ...

<<Get your facts straight before you make statements that sound racist and xenophobic.>>

I missed it.  What did Shamil write that was racist and xenophobic?  I guess somebody had to throw the race card.

The US has one of the most open immigration policies in the world, so tightening up on one element of it when unemployment is high is not racist or xenophobic.

Bill,

You want numbers and stats?  Go to http://www.zazona.com


The bottom line is that the cap extensions to the H-1B program were approved by Congress because there was a "perceived" shortage of people to fill IT positions (thanks to ITAA lobbying).  But, some of the biggest names (MS, Sun, Intel) in the LCA application database hire an average of only 2% of the applicants for their posted IT jobs.  Sure, there're probably some crap resumes in the remaining 98%, but I highly doubt that all of them are.

I used to be pro-H-1B and used to make many of the same arguments I've read above.  Then I read up on it and opened my eyes.

Nick
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Lots of stuff up there...

First, it was my intention to imply that higher paid engineers are more productive.  After all, in an efficient economy wages are proportional to output.

Globalization?  BFD.  Been there done that - worked in consumer electronics during the 80's and 90's - it doesn't get more competetive than that.  Bottom line:  if you're good at what you do, someone will pay you for it.

Looks to me, based on the URL's, that there are some damn good developers in Eastern Europe who are hungry and ready.  More power to them.  If you want a better salary, then I'd say web development is not a place to be right now.

Nat Ersoz
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

About «"[Asian]...cultures seem better attuned to producing high achievers in technology/engineering/etc. than ours. ". This is broken logic. Smart people emigrate where there are the best opportunities.»

Just my 0,002 € worth: Not too long ago, there came out some statistics that shpwed that the city with highest number of Ph.D "per capita" in the world was... Seoul, South Korea.

From what I've been able to see about the (average, of course, so there have to be wild differences) "asian" culture, they _do_ give an inordinate importance to education. The sacrifices they'll got to to get an education for their children are big indeed.

Also (and this is my _totally biased_ view showing - I'll get my Electrical Eng. degree in a couple months, I hope :), they tend to go for the "hard" sciences mostly. No "touchy feely" degrees: Phisics, Maths, Engineering... maybe some Law, but little or no "-ology"'s for them...

IIRC, there was a book ("Rising sun", M. Crichton??) in which the author became "worried" on the inordinate numbers of foreigners, specially asians, in the top places in R&D in Universities... the problem being no that they were there, but that nationals were _not_ interested in the subjects, but rather wanted to pursue "the easy buck" (lawyers, brokers....).

I tend to somewhat agree. I think people are less inclined to make an effort nowadays (there are execptions, of course). So the general level of achievement goes down....

Just my thoughts...

Javier Jarava
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

>>>But, some of the biggest names (MS, Sun, Intel) in the LCA application database hire an average of only 2% of the applicants for their posted IT jobs. <<<

The above number gets quoted often.  By itself, it is quite meaningless.  Anyone who is unemployed and wants a job is going to be sending out a lot of resumes and so are a lot of people who are employed  but looking for something better.

The most disconcerting thing about seeing this number quoted is that there seem to be a lot of IT people who think it actually means something.  I hope those people would know better.

I have doubts about there being any real IT worker shortage, but data like this doesn't prove anything.

mackinac
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

A minor point for anyone who had the attention span to read down this far- this does happen to MDs.  I'm not certain if it is under the H1B visa program but there is defintiely a program to get foreign medical graduates here so they can practice in "underserved areas"

Erik Lickerman M.D.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

OK.  It's official.  My panties are in a bunch.

I am so frickin' sick and tired of the attitude that somehow only the top 5% (1% here!) of computer people deserve to be have their jobs and/or be treated with any sort of respect.  (Have you noticed that everyone who brings this up (est. 10% of posters) believe themselves to make the cut?)

"I understand the parameters you've laid out for the answer you expect, but they don't match the reality of the situation, and actually preclude the correct response you pretend to seek. "  - Terry Rossio

The problem is a lack of respect and positive working environment for IT workers.  But as long as the answer offered is that 99% of computer developers don't deserve to have the jobs available, there will never be a solution.  There is a wide variance in programming capabilities.  But also a wide variety of needs.  Are they going to close down my local hospital because it isn't as good as Mass General? 

I do biz apps.  Have I ever done anything that a top CS grad couldn't do much better in a 10th the time?  No.  Is there stuff out there that I'd love to get back again to re-do for free just to make sure no one ever sees my old code?  Yes.  But they were all done reasonably on-time, and function under the loads they were designed for.  And I was not ashamed to take the money I got paid for them.

An Access DB to track hazardous waste compliance.  Needed. Yes.  Worthy of the attentions of a hot-snot Stanford grad.  Nope.  (Also under the radar for sending abroad.)  What would the programming gods tell these folks?  "Sorry, unworthy project - No program for you!"

Contrary Mary
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Ok Bill C.....,
here is some cold unemotional, quantifiable data.
It's all there Enjoy!!.

Matloff's site: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B http://www.zazona.com/H1BPetition.html
http://www.aea.org/
http://www.adversity.net/
FAIR http://205.178.169.32/
http://www.programmersguild.org/american.htm
http://www.immigrationreform.com/
http://www.vdare.com/pb/matloff_h1b.htm
http://fairus.org/html/h1bfocus.html
http://www.shauna.net/H1BProtest/
http://www.h1breform.freeservers.com/

Coalition for the Future American Worker http://www.americanworker.org/


Find your reps:
http://politics.yahoo.com/

Fax your reps:
http://www.numbersusa.com/index

How to write your reps:
http://www.cashpensions.com/uslegislation106/writeyourrep.htm

http://www.buchanan.org/db00-0131.html

(yeah, I know it's a buchanan site... just read the letters)

Nice article about why blacks in the US should be against the h1b immigration. http://archives.his.com/population-news/msg00441.html

(One company, San Jose-based Diamond Multimedia Systems Inc. was
ordered to pay $213,200 in back wages and other penalties after
denying technical jobs to five Latino applicants whom the Labor
Department determined were qualified for the positions.)

If you think you have been excluded from or laid off and replaced on a job by a cheaper h1-b, contact the DoL or the DoJ - nobody can apply the laws if they don't know about your situation. Maybe there were also INS violations.

REPORT VIOLATIONS - even if you aren't sure.
http://www.dol.gov/
http://www.usdoj.gov/
http://www.ins.gov/

The 1998 act http://www.oalj.dol.gov/public/ina/refrnc/acwia.htm

The 2000 act http://www.cyrusmehta.com/s2045.htm

Other good articles. http://www.cis.org/back200a.pdf
http://www.theithacajournal.com/news/stories/20000904/opinion/27812.html http://analysis.editthispage.com/stories/storyReader$8
http://pub2.ezboard.com/fcomputerconsultantspoliticalissues
http://www.techweek.com/articles/10-16-00/america.asp
http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,14508,00.html
http://www.siliconvalley.com/docs/news/svfront/teched072201.htm

Enemy intel -
http://www.ilw.com/lawyers/colum_article/col_joels/2000,0424.shtm
A lawyer tells how to legally reject Americans in favor of h1-bs. Check the message board!
http://www.isn.org/
http://www.zdnetindia.com/news/specials/h1b/

here's what h1-b's do in the US: http://www.cnn.com/2001/TRAVEL/NEWS/08/08/northwest.molest/index.html http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/mar/05us1.htm

XP Man
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

H1Bs are limited to 40hrs/week by law but this is impossible to enforce since employers dont pay or record overtime for regular employees.

Tony in Rio
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

I have never met an H1-B who only worked 40 hours a week. And I have unfortunately met many H1-Bs.

[ H1Bs are limited to 40hrs/week by law but this is impossible to enforce since employers dont pay or record overtime for regular employees. ]

HTS.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Some companies in the bay area now have H1B's working 20 hour weeks and they get paid for 20 hours. Ofcourse that's on paper. In reality they are working 50-60 hrs per week. They get to keep their legal status until the economy improves, and are not laid off like the rest of us. if you ask me, it's the companies that are to blame. They are the one's who are doing this underhanded shit of paying off the senators and getting these bills passed for increase of quota.



[ I have never met an H1-B who only worked 40 hours a week. And I have unfortunately met many H1-Bs. ]

P. Sythme
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Erik I've heard the same.
However it seems at least the AMA has it's finger on
who win's that lottery.

As far as IT is concerned, it's seems to be every G.dam
Software/IT organization with exceedingly diverget motivations.


[ A minor point for anyone who had the attention span to read down this far- this does happen to MDs. I'm not certain if it is under the H1B visa program but there is defintiely a program to get foreign medical graduates here so they can practice in "underserved areas"

Erik Lickerman M.D.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002]

P. Sythme
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Vincent>>> In fact, when its time to hire, Its painfully difficult to find an exceptional programmer.<<<

Not if you're serious about it.  A former employer of mine was quite dedicated to getting good people and I think they did well at it.  But it was a software development company and it had difficulty finding customers for such capabilities.

Companies want to hire exceptional programmers in the same sense some of us might want to be driving a high end BMW.  It sounds nice, but when it comes to making the purchase we decide it's not that important.  For the individual it's cost; for the company it would mean changing their culture to support quality software development.

Mary>>> The problem is a lack of respect and positive working environment for IT workers.<<<

I agree this is a problem.  Management tends to think of software developers as not much different from data entry clerks.  The only activity they see is someone typing on a keyboard and that is about all most software development environments are good for.

Mary>>> But as long as the answer offered is that 99% of computer developers don't deserve to have the jobs available, there will never be a solution.<<<

An interesting thought.  Maybe it's a variation of "it can't happen to me" thinking.  But how do we get a positive working envirionment?

mackinac
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

IT people working individually will never fix these problems. Microsoft, IBM and Intel give millions every year so the ITAA can go to Washington and lobby for
- higher H1-B caps
- section 1706 which drives independent consultants into body shops
- exempting computer operators from FLSA
and so on and so forth. They are organized and well-funded. If we were smart, we would start doing the same. Since IEEE blows for many reasons, the only solution is to get behind professional associations like the Programmers Guild. AEA is another one although I know less about it.

Tom H.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Can you blame the H1-B's for wanting to live in america? As a current graduate student in IT, I can tell you that these people really do work their ass off, are quite brite, and are seriously scared shitless about not finding a job within 1 year of graduation.
They are tough to compete with, but are willing to bring something to the occasion. If I were to simply ask one of them to tutor me in any topic they know, they would knock themselves out trying to help me. If I ever own a company, I want a person like that working for me. I do not care where they come from.

My dream is to have an army of motivated and well paid people working for me. That is because they will always bring more than they take. I am happy for you to make $100K if in doing so you make me $20K.

And yes, I will admit, some of them I can not compete with. If we were going for the same job, I would be out of luck.

Rand
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

Hey Mister Dim Wit ...

Go back to school or something.
You've obviously failed your econs class.
WTF do you think happens with these armies
of compliant migrant workers(H1B's) after a few years...

I'll tell you what.They get promoted just as you would.

Think about it, could we all have armies of compliant workers forever?

What are teaching these days?
Convolution Theory?



[ Can you blame the H1-B's for wanting to live in america? As a current graduate student in IT, I can tell you that these people really do work their ass off, are quite brite, and are seriously scared shitless about not finding a job within 1 year of graduation.
They are tough to compete with, but are willing to bring something to the occasion. If I were to simply ask one of them to tutor me in any topic they know, they would knock themselves out trying to help me. If I ever own a company, I want a person like that working for me. I do not care where they come from.

My dream is to have an army of motivated and well paid people working for me. That is because they will always bring more than they take. I am happy for you to make $100K if in doing so you make me $20K.

And yes, I will admit, some of them I can not compete with. If we were going for the same job, I would be out of luck.

]

RocoNow
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

H1-B is a visa, not a person. It is being battled over by IT employers (Microsoft, IBM, Intel) who want to push it up and IT workers (Programmers Guild) who want to push it down.

If someone wants to work in the US, have them apply for a green card. Right now Microsoft and company have set up a system so the only major group that has an open door policy to the USA (aside from Cubans on rafts) are people coming in to drive down IT wages. That an exception is made for screwing over ONLY my profession does not sit well with me.

The only solution is for us workers to organize. We can do very little individually. Even these massive organizations have organized into a single purpose to fight for their side of ITAA. If you do not join the Programmers Guild, or whatever organization fighting this suits you best, things will just get worse.


[ Can you blame the H1-B's for wanting to live in america? As a current graduate student in IT, I can tell you that these people really do work their ass off, are quite brite, and are seriously scared shitless about not finding a job within 1 year of graduation.
They are tough to compete with, but are willing to bring something to the occasion. If I were to simply ask one of them to tutor me in any topic they know, they would knock themselves out trying to help me. If I ever own a company, I want a person like that working for me. I do not care where they come from.

My dream is to have an army of motivated and well paid people working for me. That is because they will always bring more than they take. I am happy for you to make $100K if in doing so you make me $20K.

And yes, I will admit, some of them I can not compete with. If we were going for the same job, I would be out of luck.

]

Tom H.
Wednesday, June 12, 2002

My boss once told me during lunch that he specifically likes H1-B because he thought they were better works and (he said in a confidential tone) they were also a lot cheaper.

I lost all respect for him then.


[
1) H1-B guarantees same wage as average worker in that position. The application costs a couple of thousand dollars. The company has to pay airfares. The company paid my relocation costs. It cost them almost $10k extra to take me over other applicants.
]

Jen in SF
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Hmmm interesting read:

http://www.thestandard.com/article/0,1902,14508,00.html

Jeff
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Somebody should  exposedthe H1B scam for what it truly is. The fact is that the H1Bs I've seen are all substandard, but management likes them, because they kiss ass and they are cheap. If H1Bs are so great, then how come our H1B ridden tech economy is so completely in the shitter, and companies that rely heavily on H1Bs like SUN are going down the toilet and Linux is taking over? The bottom line is that a million cheap H1B code monkeys do not equal one bright programmer. If the USA would focus more on developing talent within it's own country rather than dragging in cheap labor, we wouldn't be in a constant situation of having our new products undermined by foreign competitors. Case in point, Nvidia's nforce barely hit the market and already Via has an on-board graphics and sound chipset that is far cheaper but is brilliant. The Taiwanese are moving into the PC chip market in a big way. First it was fabs, now it's design rip offs. Taiwanese companies like Via are undermining the H1B laden USA chip companies like Nvidia.

ASICs
Thursday, June 13, 2002

ASICs...,

FACTS TO MAKE EVERY INDIAN PROUD


Q. Who is the co-founder of Sun Microsystems?
A. Vinod Khosla

Q. Who is the creator of Pentium chip (needs no introduction as 90% of the
today's computers run on it)?
A. Vinod Dahm

Q. Who is the third richest man on the world?
A. According to the latest report on Fortune Magazine,it is Aziz Premji,who
is the CEO of Wipro Industries. The Sultan of Brunei is at 6th position now.

Q. Who is the founder and creator of Hotmail (Hotmail is world's No.1 web
based email program)?
A. Sabeer Bhatia

Q. Who is the president of AT & T-Bell Labs (AT & T-Bell Labs is the creator
of program languages such as C, C++, Unix to name a few)?
A. Arun Netravalli

Q. Who is the GM of Hewlett Packard?
A. Rajiv Gupta

Q. Who is the new MTD (Microsoft Testing Director) of Windows
2000,responsible to iron out all initial problems?
A. Sanjay Tejwrika


Q. Who are the Chief Executives of CitiBank, Mckensey & Stanchart?
A. Victor Menezes, Rajat Gupta, and Rana Talwar.


We Indians are the wealthiest among all ethnic groups in America,eve
faring better than the whites and the natives.

There are 3.22 millions of Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET,

38% of doctors in USA are Indians.
12% scientists in USA are Indians.
36% of NASA scientists are Indians.
34% of Microsoft employees are Indians.
28% of IBM employees are Indians.
17% of INTEL scientists are Indians.
13% of XEROX employees are Indians.

FenceJumper
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Dave C...
I think the figures below, probably exceed your stated minimum threshold percentages.


[
There are 3.22 millions of Indians in USA (1.5% of population). YET,

38% of doctors in USA are Indians.
12% scientists in USA are Indians.
36% of NASA scientists are Indians.
34% of Microsoft employees are Indians.
28% of IBM employees are Indians.
17% of INTEL scientists are Indians.
13% of XEROX employees are Indians
]

Larry from Queens
Thursday, June 13, 2002

This country is founded on immigrants. Whether from Ireland or UK, or China or India.


Catch some real terrorists not some immigrants trying to make a honest living!



Even with the global downturn, America is still the leader in technology and guess who makes it that way ... damn right, it is the imported talent. America is not a global leader bcos Americans have superior genes, it is because American has the prudence to attract the best in the world to its shores.


Start harassing these bright people and, go ahead, shoot yourself in the foot!

Anti-Xenophobes
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Anti-xenophobes....

Every nation on this earth has about the same proportion of smart, intelligent people with a decent sense of humor. Conversely, every nation on earth has the same proportion of assholes and acidic bitches.


I've worked with H1B-visa holders on a few contracts. Like their US citizen colleagues, most in the software development industry were mediocre. But some, just like their US citizen colleagues were talented, ambitious and nice people.


There are over 250,000 people in the IT industry out of work right now in the USA. The situation overseas (UK, Netherlands, Australia) isn't much better. The advantage we have in the US is that we're willing to take chances (and sometimes get bitten in the ass by rabid, drooling mongrels) on both ideas and people. THAT risk-taking you don't find many other places on our planet. And THAT's why people want to live here and become citizens.


Computer-technology related work came to be seen as an avenue of entry into our country and the advantage H1B-holding workers offered was lower cost, simply because their standard of living was not at part with our own. What just about every short-sighted politician and corporate manager fails to realize is that American workers will eventually be forced to compete at the same amount of money, dragging down the overall standard of living in the technical industry. Any economist will tell you that that cycle will have far-reaching impact on any nation to the point of throwing it into recession in the short term or an economic depression in the long run.


As a society, we don't learn well from our mistakes unless they're on a scale of a VietNam or an Exxon Valdez. Flooding any market with cheap, cheap labor erodes quality because of one simple but misguided equation:

Cheap does not necessarily mean good.

Rick
Thursday, June 13, 2002

The cronyism at two companies I worked at that were run by H1b's was so bad all the "native" Americans left en masse to protest (it didn't make much of a dent since there were only a handful of us to begin with)because of the flagrant cronyism and favoritism expressed by the founder to other employees who hailed from his native country. The only ones that stayed were the mexican janitors who were here illegally and didn't want to cause a fuss. so yeah, you're statement is factually correct, but when you look at the real picture, you're full of shit. The h1b's are destroying one of the few areas the US has a clear lead in (for now) - it will probably go the way that consumer electronics did in the 70's.

What the fuck happened to all this talk from our elected representatives about training and schooling home grown talent? Is this what they'll face once they get out of school - a polite "thanks, but Dinesh over here can't code quite as well , but hell, he's only half the price, so we can't give you the job. I know you'd understand" ?

We Live Here
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Basically, US companies would have had _no_ problem finding US programmers if they had

1) moved software development to some

of the less expensive areas in the

US.


2) _listened_ to their senior technical

people instead of salesmen.


3) put decent stock options in place at

larger companies


The H1-B program was just a ego boost for corporate managers that like being surrounded by submissive yes-men. I don't blame the Indians for taking advantage of the moral corruption here-the managers/board members/stock analysts and politicians that made this happen deserve all the grief folks can give them.


The H1-B program was a fraud from day one. The program should be instantly rolled back-and additional fees placed on existing Visas-NOW.

We used to Matter
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Very good. You should be proud indeed. But you should be grateful to the country that helped you grow and gave you opportunuties. Give back to the community and not just to your fellow Indians. In other words be an American.

I am Indian too. I am proud of my heritage. But America is MY country now. God bless her and keep her the great country that she is.


>>
FACTS TO MAKE EVERY INDIAN PROUD


Q. Who is the co-founder of Sun Microsystems?
A. Vinod Khosla
<<

I came in the front door!
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Larry from Queens....

"38% of doctors in USA are Indians.
12% scientists in USA are Indians.
36% of NASA scientists are Indians.
34% of Microsoft employees are Indians.
28% of IBM employees are Indians.
17% of INTEL scientists are Indians.
13% of XEROX employees are Indians"

I find that hard to believe.

Where did you get those figures from?

Waqid
Thursday, June 13, 2002

MM... this thread it getting too personal so I'd say farewell with a parting comment.

I've seen basically two positions defended:

a) "They're coming and stealing our food!" "Burn them!" (or variations thereof)

b) "They do well, work well, and they _want_ to work, what's the problem?"...

I could (somewhat) sympathise with the people on "a" were not for the fact that (IMHO) the undertones of the rants on those lines is: "they do in fact work harder than I want to, so instead of trying to do things better, or to try to increase your own value, what you try to do is rise barriers and "oh, no, let's stop competitions"...
But of course, we'd have to see you howl were you trying to work in, say, Singapore, and you found the locals were trying to "keep you out".
I don't believe in artificial barriers for commerce (and neither does, at least on paper, the US). Of course, when that means you can export to foreign countries, it's good... but when suddenly those countries start doing things better, the tide turns, doesn't it?

OTOH, I think that "b" is sometimes too naïve. If the only difference were that they work harder and better, then I'd be all for it. The problem is that in the "land of the free", every few years someone comes out with a new idea to re-invent slavery or similar behaviour. And that's quite disgusting.

But, IMNSHO _if_ you make sure that the foreign workers are treated the same, and not underpaid and overworked, _then_ I'd say let them come. Will it hurt some people? Sure, but in the (not so) long term, it'll help make the industry competitive again, maybe focusing on R&D, maybe some other way. Remember the auto industry?? When salaries were over the roof, and all everybody cared about was the status quo, the Japanese came and licked the industry three ways from sunday. It was a crisis... but GM and Ford are _still_ going on, still buying other companies... and the industry is again on the up.

So, maybe it's natural selection, or call if as you wish. As a whole, to the country I think it's a _good_ thing that the "top clever people" from other countries want to go to the US. I you let them, they'll stay and earn money for the US. If you don't, they'll go away and make money "against" the US.

Re: "First it was fabs, now it's design rip offs"... I think you'd better recosider the wording, ASICs. If it was a design rip-off, in an industry so "lawyer-trigger-happy" such as that, the would've been already sued five ways from Thursday. But nVidia is just gritting their teeth, so you can bet they don't have the slightest, even the tinyest foothold to sue. (Remember RAMBUS, they sued for patent infringement, and they got _their_ patents  reviewed). It's a sad but clear fact that US companies have been trying to use law to stop their competition from out-innovating them. It's a good thing they're mainly failing at that.

Let's hope the EU can really stand firm against the pressures to make their patent system a mere copy of a (clearly broken) one as the US's.

I'll be off now; I've ramble enough.

Javier Jarava
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"I am so frickin' sick and tired of the attitude that somehow only the top 5% (1% here!) of computer people deserve to be have their jobs and/or be treated with any sort of respect. (Have you noticed that everyone who brings this up (est. 10% of posters) believe themselves to make the cut?)"

And I am frickin' sick and tired of the attitude that every incompetent deserves to be treated with respect simply because they somehow manage to walk upright without dragging their knuckles on the ground.  When it is deemed my job to do this persons job in addition to mine because they are unable to and I need to be "nice"... I resent it.

And yes Larry... I also fight it.  But sometimes resistance is futile - when the cost outweighs the benefit then the cause is lost.  You have to pick your fights, otherwise you are just swinging at the wind.

If a person with an H1B can take a job away from an american more concerned with their respective cushy tushy and can do a better quality and productive job, then our industry benefits.

and... If I can take a job away from one of these fellow americans of mine, I would do it also - immediately without hesitation and without regret. 

Joe AA.
Thursday, June 13, 2002

In the spirit of cohelessing about tangibles
as stated by Larry from Queens,  I would submit the following.

We all agree that all systems have fixed carrying capacities.
We all agree when the upper boundaries of this "CC" is reached, a dramatic and sustained crash, in both population density of those within the system and those entities dependent on such a system.  The latter can be termed "the multi-strat" cascade effect.

What's my point??

A) All issues raised in this forum are absolutely valid.
b) We should not allow, emotion to detract from the central theme.
c) Critical unemotional numerical analsys is manadatory...
  let the results speak for themselves.

Again!  This is not about us vs. them(indian,asians,insert your flavor here)

It's about ascertaining whether or not we're in danger of exceeding carrying capacity for the overall system.


I would further suggest that when ~1.5% of the population "seemS" occupy ~(20-35)% of the CC of system, it should naturally raise eyebrows!!


So please check your emotions at the front door.

Casual Observer
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Ok!!
Have you ever lived or been to India?

They have what is called a caste system!
It's basically another term for institutionalized racism.
In other words they don't subscribe to the notion of
natural selection is the "classical" sense.

Another point:  Binding Social contracts is a God given right of every Tax paying American citizen.





[So, maybe it's natural selection, or call if as you wish. As a whole, to the country I think it's a _good_ thing that the "top clever people" from other countries want to go to the US. I you let them, they'll stay and earn money for the US. If you don't, they'll go away and make money "against" the US.
]

HTS
Thursday, June 13, 2002

FenceJumper,

thanks for your list of indian involvement in industry.

you seem to be implying that indians are superior to other races.

i agree with you that there are many smart indians.
in fact, there are smart people from every race.
and india has about a billion people, so they have quite a few very smart people.

to balance things out and be more objective about what is really going on here, allow me to present the following documentation that the indian subcontinent has a substantially lower average IQ (81, which is more than a full standard deviation below normal) than the west:

http://www.vdare.com/sailer/wealth_of_nations.htm

and here we see that india has just the lowest ratio of nobel prizes to population of any country with more than 0 nobels:

http://members.shaw.ca/delajara/Nobels.html

i suspect must be about the low wage price i think since if we wanted smart programmers, we'd import them from holland or germany

all are created equal
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Trolls with agendas.  Can they go any lower?! ;-)

Aside from the blatantly humorous ones that exist to show how repugnant the serious ones are, there's at least six.  "I lost all respect for my boss then," my ass.  If there was a "Jen in SF" and her boss really did say H1B's were BETTER and cheaper, he's just being a smart guy by hiring them.  Subsidizing mediocrity is such a repulsive argument.

BTW, for the humorous troll that said good programmers come from Holland & Germany, I work in Germany.  By no means are they any better.  Nor worse.

red
Thursday, June 13, 2002

For those you that seem challenged by the notion of equitable and level playing field.

Read the following:
http://www.nsf.gov/od/cawmset/report/cawmset_brochure.pdf

Legal Donor
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Ed the Millwright, how do I get started?

10 hour days in front of the monitor has wrecked my back! 

those who know me have no need of my name
Thursday, June 13, 2002

I really take exception to these false assertions that a lone Indian 'invented' the Pentium processor. The description of this alleged event gives the image of a lone inventor working late at night in his basement or workshop.
First, there were hundreds of engineers working on the Pentium. Not all of them were Indian.
Second, the Pentium was an incremental upgrade to the 80486 which was an incremental upgrade to the 80386 which was etc...
Third, most of the code for the Pentium was inherited from the 486 project.
Fourth, I know of no comparable situation in which a Project Manager or Senior Engineer of such a large project is said to have 'invented' something that was a long term collaborative project as well as incremental upgrade to an existing system.
Fifth, the people I know who DID work on the Pentium say the guy you mention was an incompetant jerk who nearly ruined the project and made a number of boneheaded egocentic decisions indicative of either somebody on crack or who simply didn't know what he was doing.
So sorry - to say that the 486 was invented by an Indian is just totally false.

Intel Insider
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Insider,

Who is this Dahm guy anyway? A quick check of the Intel directory shows there is no such person and he is not mentioned on their web site. A google search reveals several hundred websites reprinting that 'reason to be a proud indian' list, and Clinton once gave a proclamation mentioning him, but I can't find any info about his role at Intel... if he really ever worked there.

Indian Dahm in Nation?
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Sounds like more revisionist history, IMHO

http://www.carolinadesi.com/Main/Miscellaneous/ProudToBeAnIndian.html

>>04. According to the Forbes magazine, Sanskrit is the most suitable language for computer software
<<
So why come to american universities to learn computer science?

>>
10 According to the Gemmological Institute of America, up until 1896, India was the only source of diamonds to the world.
<<
I wonder what Cecil Rhodes would have to say about this?


Further illustration of what these chaps truely excel at.
CANCERIOUS subterfuge

Check Point
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Dahm In Nation,

Vinnie was one several of the chief designers on the Pentium. His contribution was in no way unique and I assure you the people who worked with him are pretty PO'd at the way he has grabbed all the credit. But that was just the sort of person he was. After working 16 years at Intel, he left and was COO of start up Nexgen which was acquired by AMD where he was made Computation Products Group Vice President and in charge of the K6. He's more of a technical manager. He then resigned mid-project showing no loyalty to AMD and took off for in 1998 Silicon Spice Inc. where he called himself Chair, President and CEO all at once. He was planning to make some sort of DSP chip for cellphones there but I don't know if he ever succeeded. That company then got acquired in 2000 by Broadcom as their 'Carrier Access Business Unit' for $1.2 billion, a fair portion of which went to Vinnie. At this time they said they had working silicon but from what I hear it depends on your definition of working. Vinnie's an incredibly wry (shifty) business cat but he is a poor engineer. I do note that the Pentium products have gotten much better since he left -- such as the quality control problems that led to that floating point problem. By the way, there are lots of cats that come in here and take credit for things that were a group effort. Kind of a megalomania syndrome. I don't want to single out Vinnie because of where he's from -- the megalomaniacs come from all sorts of different places. And yes, he was a personal friend and supporter of Clinton's and testified against Intel in the FTC antitrust case in 1999.

Intel Insider
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Jesus... to think I came here to get away from all the jingoistic football crap :-/

tommyhl
Thursday, June 13, 2002

All of this stuff is only an issue because of the reduction of opportunity in the IT industry, 2 years ago when everything was swinging along fine it never would have been an issue due to the supply/demand ratios of IT people to jobs.
Now that their is more competition for jobs its natural for people to want to reduce the competition. The easiest way to do this is to reduce the number of competitors, H1B's are an easy target. Also, university intake for IT students can be reduced, there are a number of other measures.

If the industry rebounds then all this will go away, if it does'nt then it will get bigger and bigger. Either way, we all need to treat each other with dignity, politics should not define human interaction.

Tony
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Hello Tony,
with all due respect, I suggest you browse the following:
Matloff's site: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Note the original publication dates and subsequent revision dates.

The facts more than speak for themselves...

Larry from Queens
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Hello Tony,
with all due respect, I suggest you browse the following:
Matloff's site: http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

Note the original publication dates and subsequent revision dates.

The facts more than speak for themselves...

[------------------------------------------------------------------------
All of this stuff is only an issue because of the reduction of opportunity in the IT industry, 2 years ago
------------------------------------------------------------------------]

Larry from Queens
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"politics should not define human interaction. "

Tony... What do you think is the basis for human interaction if it is not politics?

Joe AA.
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"120 K for a C++ programmer! Friggin' hell; can't we do something about this?" This was the refrain in corporate boardrooms through 1997 / 1998, usually from guys on about 500 K talking with HR directors on about 250 K.

These guys would happily sign cheques to law firms for services provided at $450 per hour, work to have their own salary increased each year, and so on.

This whole debate is not about Indian programmers. It's about one group in business taking the opportunity to reduce the pay rates to another group. The unusual thing is that the group losing money are vital to the business and have a lot of bargaining power, if they would just use it.

All the programmers defending the h1b program here, next time to see senior management in the hallway, pull $50 out of your pocket and give it to them. Do it every week. That's what h1b is about.

Programmers wanting to do something, badger your congressman. Support the Programmers Guild.

Hugh Wells
Thursday, June 13, 2002

For those among us that remain in denial,
the following is for your view pleasure:
http://www.faceintel.com/

It can and will happen to YOU!

Compliance has its benifts
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Excellent info:

Since when do we leave our wounded behind?

http://www.faceintel.com/whoweare.htm

>>
It can and will happen to YOU!
<<

Paul B.
Thursday, June 13, 2002

For Bill Carlon

http://www.faceintel.com/foreignstudents.htm

Paul B.
Thursday, June 13, 2002

I find it disturbing how many programmers have no compassion towards their fellow programmers.

I would like to point out several facts about the H-1B program that several of you have overlooked:

1. H-1B is a "non-immigrant" guest worker program. Those of you sharing that politically-correct prattle about immigration should keep this in mind when you sing praises of H-1B. H-1B workers do not have the status of immigrants of the past. They are here for 6 years and out and get no priority towards staying permanently. (In fact, H-1B workers are less likely to be able to get a green card than average.)

2. Many of you are probably not aware that it is perfectly legal for employers to fire their American staffs and replace them with H-1B workers. Unfortunately, massed firings often do not get reported in the press because of political correctness. 70 people lost their jobs at Bank of America. 500 at Dun & Bradstreet. 250 at AIG. 300 at SeaLand.

3. When an employer fires replaces its staff with H-1B workers you skill has nothing to do with whether you lose your job or not. Everyone goes.

4. Although the law requires them to be paid the prevailing wage, H-1B programmers make significantly less than American programmers.

5. H-1B workers from 3rd World Countries make signficantly less than those from the 1st World. (Funny, shouldn't the prevailing wage for programmers from India be the same as programmers from England in the U.S?)

6. Our legislators have made no secret that H-1B is strictly legislation for Campaign cash. As Rep. Tom Davis of VA put it "This [h-1b] is an important issue for the CEOs who give the money."

7. H-1B has created the business of offshore development. Without their ability to have H-1B workers in the U.S. to provide support, the large scale offshore outsourcing could not take place. It is no surprise that the largest foriegn providers of offshore software development are also among the largest users of H-1B.

8. Even during the Internet boom programmer salaries rose less than those of professional workers as a whole.

9. Programmer salaries are now declining.

10. 500,000 programming jobs were lost last year.

11. There are now 500,000 H-1B programmers in the U.S. with 100,000 h-1b programmers imported last year.

12. In spite of a down economy, the number of H-1B visas issued nearly doubled from the previous year (probably about 200,000).

13. Think if you keep your skills up you don't have to worry about losing your job? Just wait until you are 40, have 2 children, a mortgage and are vested in the retirement plan.

14. With H-1B the free market goes out the wind. Your tax dollars go to subsidize the importation of cheap foreign labor. Microsoft wants to be able to import programmers from countries without minimum wage laws. What would Microsoft do if Congress proposed allowing consumers to import copies of software legally manufactured in countries without copyright laws?

15. If it takes getting fired and replaced by an H-1B worker to get a programmer to stand up againt H-1B, we are doomed as a profession. As a congressional staff member told me, "Programmers are a bunch of pussies. Congressmen can take the campaign cash and vote for H-1B because they know programmers will take it up the ass and smile."

Chairman, The Programmers Guild
Thursday, June 13, 2002

Well put, Chairman, Programmers Guild!

I estimate that 60% of my fortune was produced by giving it to programmers up their asses.  (The remaining 40% was produced by giving it investors in the same part of their anatomies.)

Software Plutocrat
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"Globilization only sucks when you are the one getting fucked"

Well put.  Plan accordingly is all I can offer. 

This is nothing new.  In fact, it's long overdue.  I have been anticipating exporting for almost  a decade.  This should not come as a surprise to any intelligent programmer. 

Bella
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"My boss once told me during lunch that he specifically likes H1-B because he thought they were better works and (he said in a confidential tone) they were also a lot cheaper.
I lost all respect for him then. "

Well, in that case, you sound like an IDIOT.  If the boss has determined a business tool is BETTER AND CHEAPER, then he'd be a fool choose something else.  Thank god you're not running the ship (into the ground, that is)

Bella
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"8. Even during the Internet boom programmer salaries rose less than those of professional workers as a whole."

Are you out of your mind?!?!  People were taking 100% raises every 6 months!  Houses were bought with CASH.  The IT boom was the most lucrative labor market of the DECADE.

Bella
Thursday, June 13, 2002

I love (some) programmers*.  When they say they believe in the free market, they really freakin mean it. 

Here's (h1b) econ 101:

a.  Times are good, you make a killing, you espouse free market principles.

b.  Times are bad, you take a beating, you've already committed so you still espouse free market principles.

There's no way we should be making more than nurses, teachers, 'real' engineers, etc...  The market has finally realized this, and we will see our salaries drop into a more realistic range. 

Doesn't bother me because I have been saving all this $crazy$ $jack$ I've been making and I'm thinking about jumping ship anywho... not because the market is starting to suck, but because my back is about to give out from being humped over a monitor for 10 hours/day. 

* I still love anti-h1b programmers too.

those who know me have no need of my name
Thursday, June 13, 2002

"Are you out of your mind?!?! People were taking 100% raises every 6 months!"

Bella, I think that those stats come from the BLS.  While I was fortunate to almost triple my salary over a 4 year period, I think the majority was less fortunate. 

Not my problem, the less programmers understand about business, the better off I am.

You will know me from the smell of fine sausages
Friday, June 14, 2002

The ignorance of economics that has been displayed on this forum is pitiful from an intellectual standpoint but wonderful from the standpoint of my net worth.  According to my lobbyists and P.R. consultants, each event in which an indigenous programmer welcomes foreign competition adds $127,342.75 to my bottom line!  Also, while I deplore the allegation of xenophobia that has been made on the forum for its lack of empirical support, I welcome it for its contribution to my well being.  On balance:  Welcome to the forum, xenophobia allegers!

Software Plutocrat
Friday, June 14, 2002

The thing is, just as we don't deserve anymore than nurses and teachers, neither do lawyers, accountants and managers.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

Re the statement that programmers made stacks in the dot com boom - everyone attached to certain companies made stacks. In fact, non-programmers often made the most.

This doesn't mean that, overall, salaries for programmers failed to climb much. Also, we should be careful about extrapolating from particular personal circumstances to whole populations.

Statistics do seem to show that programmer salaries grew less than those for other occupations. This occurred even though development became more complex and more important to corporate success, which would, in economic terms, justify generous salary increases.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

Is'nt it great when your stock prices rise, because your investments have hired H1B's (along with other measures) and the "free market" says that this is good. But you've lost your job.

Happened to me.

While the meaning of life is to deliver value to shareholders
this sort of thing will happen all the time.

Buy companies that hire H1B's
Friday, June 14, 2002

Funnily enough, I used to assess potential investments on the extent to which they had been able to attract good American programmers. If they hadn't, they didn't get my vote. I never lost money in investing.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

This phenomenon is not new in the United States.  The wound just feels like it has salt in it because they're OUR wounds now, as opposed to US steel workers, auto manufacturers, etc.

At the dawn of the Industrial era, vast railroads were built across the country by hand...thousands and thousands of miles of wood and steel were laid.  By whom...?  Americans?  No, boat after boat of Chinese immigrants were brought in to do the work that many Americans would have been happy to do.

Now, before I get yelled at, I'm not condoning this behavior.  I'm simply stating that this is par for the course, using history as a guide; when there's a huge task that needs accomplishing, less expensive (usually foreign) workers are brought in en masse.....Jews building the pyramids, African Americans building the agricultural economy of the South, the Irish building huge ships for the English (including the Titanic - let that irony sink in for a minute), computer hardware being built by Malaysian children, etc. etc.

I use these extreme examples for a reason...not to condone the terrible ways by which people have enslaved one another over the years, but to reference them in parallel to our programming situation, as I've read several references to indentured servitute.  This is simply the way things have always worked.  That doesn't mean they can't be changed, but I honestly believe that they won't.

Not once, while watching TV or reading the news or in the geek/tech/dork news sites where I spend my time have I heard of anyone "marching on D.C." or starting a Professional organization (or organizing in any way - referenced above).  How many of you have been asked to sign a petition regarding H1 issues when visiting the Post Office on your lunch break?  I get harrassed by Girl Scouts, Vote-No-On-The-Airport people, organizations to feed the homeless, the Salvation Army, etc.  If we're such a downtrodden people (programmers), why aren't we out fighting for the solution, instead of sitting at home bitching about the problem?

Judging by the length of this thread (compared to others on the site), this is a hot issue for a lot of people.  What is anyone really doing about it? 

Don't forget: No matter how bad things get, no one owes you anything.

Jeff MacDonald
Friday, June 14, 2002

There are more direct ways to make money than being a programmer.  I mean, doing something that has little to do with money, hoping people want to give you money for it?  Especially with the destabilizing effect of computing on peoples' jobs?

The only thing saving people in this profession is the possibility that very good programmers are 10X better than average.  As for "destroying the profession"... the books and knowledge will live on.  Everything is pretty well-documented, as far as things go.

Still, I find good humor in the idea of frustrating large US companies by joining the guild.  After all, it is clearly wrong for these jerks to employ people at less than they're legally required to, treating them like interchangable slaves.

sammy
Friday, June 14, 2002

Sammy,
Brilliant observation.  I agree with you.
Now if only others felt the same way.

"Still, I find good humor in the idea of frustrating large US companies by joining the guild. After all, it is clearly wrong for these jerks to employ people at less than they're legally required to, treating them like interchangable slaves. "

Len Baker
Friday, June 14, 2002

Sorry Hugh, I wasn't talking about what we 'deserve' to make, just what the market will be willing to pay.

You will know me from the smell of fine sausages
Friday, June 14, 2002

Yeh, that's cool.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

It's an interesting thing about programmers and engineers, arising from the way we're educated. We find the explanation for something then use that as a basis for action.

This has been the basis for some of the conclusions above, where people deduce the reason for something then conclude there's nothing that can be done about it.

In fact, there's plenty that can be done, and is being done. It starts with saying: "That's not good," or even: "I don't like that, stop it" etc. That's the basis of democracy.

Anyone who hasn't contacted their congressman before, give it a try. It's simple. You tell him or her you don't like something, or do, and what you want changed. Get other people to do the same.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

"just as we don't deserve anymore than nurses and teachers, neither do lawyers, accountants and managers. "

I disagree.  There are strict state exams and certifications to become a doctor, lawyer, accountant.  This is one criteria of defining a "profession"  Programming is not a profession, it is a commodity trade skill.  There is no "Learn Law in 21 days" or "Be a CPA in 21 days"  A high schooler can be QUALIFIED to be a programmer.  Doesn't mean he'll be good, but that's not the point. 
The only reason we are getting paid as obscenely as we are is a supply/demand imbalance.  It was temporary, but many people incorrectly let it get to their heads. 

PS: First off, the word "deserve" does not exist in real life.  (See "fair" for details) 

Bella
Friday, June 14, 2002

Oh, and based on that argument, when the world comes to it's senses, programming will pay MUCH LESS than teachers & nurses.  Those professions have qualifications and certifications, and require more formal education.  Those are factors that affect the supply curve of the labor pool, which is one determinant of the salary. 

As a rough estimate, I estimate the "fair market" salary of programming to be anywhere between 33% to 66% of teaching and nursing.

Bella
Friday, June 14, 2002

"The thing is, just as we don't deserve anymore than nurses and teachers, neither do lawyers, accountants and managers. "

I guess that lawyers, accountants and managers might have a very different view on the topic :) (Yes, I know I said I was off this thread, but I can't help it :).

The thing is, most (non-programmer) people have the perception that programmers earn money in lots, that they're rolling on the stuff. It may no longer be true (maybe it never was), but that's the general perception, and that's something we have to take into account.

Personally, I've always thought that the situation was a little "overboard" for some time, and that a correction was long due. Of course, when you have extreme scarcity, then you might find yourself with an excess of demand, and that's what happens now: Companies are starting to learn how to do the same things with less manpower. At the same time, the technology has matured, so now "on average" programmers are more productive, things get done faster, cheaper (or almost :). And you have the hordes of people who, instead of studying law or econ hoping to become a top-notch broker or investment lawyer and make a bundle, instead turned to computers as the fastes way to ca$h. End result? Salaries go down. As they should!.

IMHO, it _is_ a shame that (at least here, in Spain), doctors have less "social recognition" and salary than, for instance, programmers. Specially when the road to the profession is ten times harder to get to be a doctor than to be a programmer. And doctors _have_ to belong to professional associations ("Colegios Profesionales" in Spanish, don't know the exact translation), that assure a minimum level of profesionalism. Not so with programmers. Heck, even engineers have to be "colegiados" to be able to direct their own projects. So, we have some professions that are _at least_ as hard study-wise as programming (I'd say even harder, specially for medicine), with a higher barrier of entry... and even the, lower salaries? Something is wrong with  that scenario.

As for getting a campaign going, and getting support... I think it's worth to fight against the abuses (ie, under-paid over-exploited workers, no matter what nationality), but I also believe that it'll be somewhat hard (impossible?) to get "the average Joe"'s support. After all, the people will probably see it as the whyning of some people who are doing a bundle in any case.

I think the analogy with airline pilots is somewhat relevant. Around here, it seems the pilots are always asking for pay rises, and threatening with strikes if they don't get it. I don't really know if (apart from more money) the rest of the things they ask for are really unfair or not, but I do know that I've never had much simpathy for their "sorrows". They have huge salaries, work relatively few hours, and they are _still_ asking for more? Come-on!!

So, I think "we" should focus on two things. First of all, opposing any abuses from management, in general. Not because of visas or whatever, but on their own grounds. And secondly, and much more important on the long term, the "programmer" profession should really be turned into a "real" profession, not something like the state the field is. I consider myself fairly competent at programming, but I won't go as far as calling myself "A Programmer"... but then I know people who barely can string HTML and Perl/PHP to make a not-too-good website, people I know I could code circles around, and they call themselves "Programmers"? And they do manage to pull it off!...

Food for thought!!..

Javier Jarava
Friday, June 14, 2002

"As a rough estimate, I estimate the "fair market" salary of programming to be anywhere between 33% to 66% of teaching and nursing"..

I think that might be a little low (maybe because teachers don't make too much around here, but OTOH they enjoy better working conditions - and that's something you also have to factor in at the time of assessing salaries), but I also belive a little more "professionalism" (or appearance of) in the field will be good in the long run.

---

Also, another thing has crossed my mind. It's quite ironic that the same people not-so-many-years ago were all extatic with the possibilities of "the global village" and the world of wonders it'd bring are now complaining when those wonders become true!... Think about it, when we live in a little village, the only blacksmith / doctor / whatever will be able to charge what they feel like. On a city, suddenly there comes a younger, faster one that'll do the same job at half the price!.

Well, now we are finding the "younger / faster" programmers and we don't like it. As the blacksmith doesn't, either. But the net effect for the town is better.
There is no god-given right for any profession to be "like it always was", no mandate for preserving anybody's way of life. That's evolution for you, the net result for the species is for the better. But those who don't adapt won't like it too much. I guess the ancestors of the giraffe that didn't get so long a neck didn't like it too much, either. But "giraffendom" as a whole benefited from the changes.

So maybe it's time to strech our necks a little?

Javier Jarava
Friday, June 14, 2002

"we don't deserve anymore than teachers"

I have two friends who teach 3rd grade. They make $55,000 each.

I'd love to have 100 days of vacation every year, paid training, and a 6 hr day.

And I'd do it for less than $55,000 too!

Hot for Teacher
Friday, June 14, 2002

I wish I knew what to think.  I'm pro capitalism and I supported NAFTA.  In general, if a plastic trashcan can be made and sold for $3.50 then it's only worth $3.50.

On the other hand, I thought that when I entered computer science I was becoming a professional worker, not a cheap technician.  The general answer is to become elite and differenciate yourself the masses.  I think that's just a short term solution.  Before long there will be plenty of "elites" willing to work for less.

How can I be a capitalist and still want to keep my wages fairly high?

Matt Woodworth
Friday, June 14, 2002

["Don't forget: No matter how bad things get, no one owes you anything. "]

This is not a matter of anyone owing me or you anything. It is a matter of our profession being attacked by well-financed, well-organized industry groups, while we sit back and don't make a peep.

Teachers have two orgs, doctors the AMA, other professions have organized groups presenting them to the body politic. While we, basically, do nothing but debate the usefulness of GOTO statements.

H1B is not the only issue over which developers need political representation, either.
I'm intrigued by the existence of this "Guild" and will visit their Web site this weekend. If they're lobbying for my interests, I will give money.

skautsch
Friday, June 14, 2002

"How can I be a capitalist and still want to keep my wages fairly high?"

As a capitalist you already know the answer to that:  produce a better value.

The non-capitalist answer would be protectionism: let me get paid more for less value.

Business competition promotes growth by providing more value.  Protectionism causes stagnation.  Means determines the end.

"Don't forget: No matter how bad things get, no one owes you anything. "

I agree completely.

Joe AA.
Friday, June 14, 2002

Joe AA, all successful western nations manage their economies. As I mentioned in another thread, it wasn't programmers that couldn't handle the heat in the kitchen; it was big employers.

They were the ones who went whining to government for special treatment. "We want to lower programmer wages; please can we have special permission to import cheap foreign programmers?"

I don't see any calls to import 500,000 lawyers or accountants. Indian has a good legal system and skilled lawyers.

Hugh Wells
Friday, June 14, 2002

Sure Hugh... I realize there is no truly free capitalistic society in the world.  It's funny that you should use the word "managed" though, kind of implies something that ain't exactly true, although it would be nice to think of it that way.  It's still protectionism.

I also understand your point about the employers.  Totally agree.  I guess my use of "you" was taken to mean "you the programmer" rather than "you the capitalist".

And I've always said we don't have enough lawyers and accounts in the world. (What would you call 50K lawyers under the ocean... a good first step? (laughing))

Joe AA.
Friday, June 14, 2002

For those who are using the sacred cow of capitalism: Please keep in mind that the free agency of labor is one of the pillars of capitalism - we here in the States even fought a civil war over this conflict in economic systems.

H1B's are not "free agents", and are therefore, contrary to capitalism. They are workers who are allowed to quit their jobs only with the blessing of the employer. If all labor was treated this way, capitalism would collapse, because new business formation would dry up. (The possibility of forming a new business which will need to hire labor is why the free agency of labor is so important in capitalism.)

skautsch
Friday, June 14, 2002

Gents/Ladies,
Please notice  following comment. I couldn't have said better, so I won't. 

However I'll  just add that on average developers work 10-15 hour days, are forced on continuously shifting technically standards(continuosly retraining), and perhaps get 2-3weeks of down time for their efforts.

So why the hell, shouldn't we get compensated like MD's or JD's?

Software Development, is near f..king  total commitment, and I don't think free pizza and soda, is fair compensation.

A teacher making 55K/yr all things factored is in fact effectly making ~($40-50)/hr for what amounts to part-time work.

[
"we don't deserve anymore than teachers"

I have two friends who teach 3rd grade. They make $55,000 each.

I'd love to have 100 days of vacation every year, paid training, and a 6 hr day.

And I'd do it for less than $55,000 too! ]

Larry from Queens
Friday, June 14, 2002

Joe AA,
Blind literal interpretation is not what's called for here.

For instance MD's have a "Guild", Lawyers have a "Guild", Pilots have a "Guild",
heck it seems every group has some sort "collective" organization who's primary
charter is to respresent the interests of the members of the said organization.

In a way these guilds are there to ensure that the "Social Contract" for a group of
workers is being properly and fairly enforced( translated to keep bad managers in check).

Yet these same groups are responsible for many of the benifts that we "capitalists"
enjoy. They clearly are not anti-capitalist!!!

I say lets join them and practise that flavor of capitalism, let take our rightful place at that table. [Proper framing to this debate is essential]

<B>FAIR REPRESENTATION FOR FAIR COMPENSATION</B>


[
The non-capitalist answer would be protectionism: let me get paid more for less value.
]

Larry from Queens
Friday, June 14, 2002

Javier Jarava, welcome back buddy.

How is Miguel Induran doing these days?

XP Man
Friday, June 14, 2002

Well, IIRC, he retired a few years ago :) About the following year after he won his 5th consecutive Tour de France. He only stayed long enough to win the Giro de Italia, to break the World Record on the "One hour" Indoors and to be Silver on the World Cycling medal (can't remember the exact name), the first being anothre spanish cyclist, Abraham Olano :)

Javier Jarava
Friday, June 14, 2002

"Software Development, is near f..king total commitment, and I don't think free pizza and soda, is fair compensation."

If you are worth your demands, then you'll get them.  If you aren't, or there is a suitable alternative, then ou won't.  No one is forcing you to program for a living.  If you are unhappy, then you should go find another career.  There are plenty of people who will step up into your postion.  Take it, or leave it.  That's the reality of labor marketplaces.

Bella
Friday, June 14, 2002

Bella surely you jest?

Try feeding that to the 10-15K engineers over at HP/Compaq now being "rebalanced" in order for Fiorina to get her $200Million bonus.

We all know this has nothing to do with intrinsic worth.
Rather is about what they can get away with.

Power without treshold limiters is simply deadly.

So re-think your logic and try again.

Doug G.
Friday, June 14, 2002

The IT job market is currently very gloomy at best. I have a bachelor's
degree in computer science and five years of development and business
analysis experience using such IT technologies as DCOM, COM, MTS, ADO, C++,
Visual Basic, ASP, Java, and relational database management systems like
Oracle and SQL-Server. I understand the difference between structured and
object oriented programming; between simple client/server applications and
more complex multi-tier architectures that utilize COM objects to
encapsulate business logic and manage transactions.



Given such skills, I still find it very difficult to find employment because
of the fact that so many unqualified IT recruiters and IT Human Resource
personnel are simply and lazily only looking for IT buzz words to fill
positions. These individuals make no differentiation between someone with a
bachelors degree in computer science and someone with a communications
degree who was a little computer savvy and decided to get into computers
because they read a "Programming in 21 days" book.



There is an inundation of people in the IT field claiming they are
quintessential computer gurus because they dabbled in creating a web-site
and may have written a Microsoft Word macro or two. To exacerbate this
problem you have inflated H1-B visa requests under the guise of an American
IT skills scarcity when in actuality the real reason for such visa requests
is due to greedy corporate executives wanting to pay lower IT salaries in
order to increase profit margins. And of course, American politicians are
more than happy to oblige such requests in exchange for hefty campaign
contributions.



A new age is definitely upon us as IT professionals. We must strive to speak
out on these issues and prove that we are true professionals that deserve
respect and special consideration over the unqualified IT bandwagon leeches
and unnecessary H1-B visa personnel. These individuals have displaced the IT
professional who respects and truly understands the foundational computer
science concepts behind the computer technology that drives the corporate
American computer engine. An understanding that penetrates far deeper than
"flavor of the month" programming languages and trendy enterprise software
packages.



That was my 2 cents like it or not....

delete [] p2H1B;
Friday, June 14, 2002

Very true "delete [] p2H1B"!

The day has passed when companies can list outrageous job requirements and
be stubbornly anal about every requirement in order to post a job that will
certainly go unfilled. With the position unfilled for a length of time they
can simply claim that the American IT worker unfortunately lacks the type of
expertise they need and justify more H1-B visa requests. What a simple
system for fraud perpetration and abuse don't you think?

Jason
Friday, June 14, 2002

The problem is that you'll have to fight it out with all the Chinese and
Indians for the jobs.  They may not take you if your white (I'm not
kidding!).  The prevaling excuse is that Indians and Chinese are more
pliable workers.  They pay shit to H1B's too.  You'll get New Zealand
wages with American overhead.  The Indian programmers in my previous job
lived four to an apartment and shared a car.  Unfortunately, that's
the only way to get a job here anymore. 

compliance sucks
Friday, June 14, 2002

An excerpt from Colorado Representative Tom Tancredo's speech he presented
on the floor of the House of Representatives on November 6, 2001

I suggest, Mr. Speaker, that it is time for us in this body to revisit the
whole idea, the whole issue of H-1B, and I have, in fact, introduced a bill
to abolish H-1B visas. I think, Mr. Speaker, we do not need them anymore. I
do not think we needed them when we passed them. I think we did it as a
favor to some large corporations in the United States because they could get
people to come to the United States and work for less than they could hire
an American worker to do the same job.

And I say that with the recognition that there are people in the United
States who I know today are unemployed and unemployed because an H-1B visa
holder took his or her job, took a job that those people would be qualified
for and would be doing except, of course, they asked for more money.

Denver--> Jim
Friday, June 14, 2002

While the program may not be perfect, a fee was added to the visas under the Clinton administration that is used in training Americans for these jobs.

Shitloads of jobs with the Federal government and its contractors are opening up under a new policy that prohibits non-citizens from positions considered sensitive or related to data processing.

So quit whining and go pound the pavement like everyone else.


> An excerpt from Colorado Representative Tom Tancredo's speech he presented
> on the floor of the House of Representatives on November 6, 2001

In DC
Friday, June 14, 2002

[ While the program may not be perfect, a fee was added to the visas under the Clinton administration that is used in training Americans for these jobs.]



The program is not perfect... it is fraudulent.

The White House recently announced that these fees were not working to reduce the reliance on H-1B usage, and wanted to instead use the fees to speed the green card process.  The industry did not agree, and fought the White House on this issue because the industry prefers the indentured
servitude aspects of H-1B.  A greencard holder can demand more salary, and are free to move around from job to job without a sponsorship arrangement.

From the beginning, these training programs have been a sham, and the industry knew it when they agreed to it in trade for the increase in the H-1B quota.  The training programs these fees pay for do not provide enough
training to place someone in a job that an H-1B worker would hold.  These training programs create technicians, not computer programmers.  H-1B workers are taking the programming jobs away from American citizens.

Denver --> Jim
Friday, June 14, 2002

This is a start, and should have always been the case.  The Federal government is not the only entity that deals with sensitive data.  Many corporations have more detailed information about people in their computers than the government does.  None of this information should be in the hands of non-citizens.  For example, Qwest (the local phone service company serving 14 states) recently moved their CRIS billing system to India.  ADT Security has over 50% of their computer staff made up of H-1B programmers
and database administrators.  ADT Security monitors the security systems of many Federal entities, and is supposed to require their staff to have security clearances... H-1B workers are not able to get security clearances.
Experian (the credit check company formally known as TRW) employes a vast number of H-1B programmers... all with complete access to your personal and private information.

>> Shitloads of jobs with the Federal government and its contractors are  opening up under a new policy that prohibits non-citizens from  positions considered sensitive or related to data processing. <<

Experian insider
Friday, June 14, 2002

> The White House recently announced that these fees were not working to
> reduce the reliance on H-1B usage, and wanted to instead use the fees to
> speed the green card process.

That's consistent with Smirky's policy of refusing to fund job
training while awarding billions to his corporate contributors.

The first training programs didn't even get started until the
beginning of 2001.

> The industry did not agree, and fought the
> White House on this issue because the industry prefers the indentured
> servitude aspects of H-1B.  A greencard holder can demand more salary, and
> are free to move around from job to job without a sponsorship arrangement.

That's true, but it's also true many Americans don't pursue careers in
the sciences

Meat Eating Grass Country
Friday, June 14, 2002

[-- That's consistent with Smirky's policy of refusing to fund job training while awarding billions to his corporate contributors --]

Why would we waste money trainning Americans.  The goal is to eliminate all American workers and only have conusmers in the United States.  Not sure of the
long term success of that type of program but it was probably a second thought of the guy who created star wars.  Little things like a couple bombs getting past does not matter.  Little thing like were is the American to get money if he is only a consumer is a little detail to the big picture.

Doug G.
Friday, June 14, 2002

Why would they?  They spend years learning high technology and get the shaft by the managers and the politicians.  We don't have scientists and engineers because it pays a lot better to be a banker, lawyer,
politician, or bean counter.

>> That's true, but it's also true many Americans don't pursue careers in  the sciences. <<

Dick
Friday, June 14, 2002

delete [] p2H1B,
If only you knew how to use a text editor, your message would be so much stronger.

>An understanding that penetrates far deeper than
"flavor of the month" programming languages and trendy enterprise software
packages.

I find that statement ironic, considering you list "DCOM, COM, MTS, ADO" as your skillsets.

Bella
Friday, June 14, 2002

Why is it that no one seemed to care about all these supposed H1 abuses when everyone was employed?

Bella
Friday, June 14, 2002

[Chairman, Programmers Guild] wrote:

H-1B is a "non-immigrant" guest worker program. Those of you sharing that politically-correct prattle about immigration should keep this in mind when you sing praises of H-1B. H-1B workers do not have the status of immigrants of the past. They are here for 6 years and out and get no priority
towards staying permanently.

Basically, there are three ways to get a green card:

1. Enter the lottery
2. Marry an American
3. Get an H1-B and work your arse off for 3-5 years.

Which one of these has the highest probability of ending up contributing to the
U.S. economy instead of ending up on welfare?

It's a shame that the Programmer's Guild, a group with supposedly noble asperations like implementing professional standards and fighting the corporate abuse of programmers has decided to limit its appeal and membership with its xenophobic anti-H1 agenda.

I know I'd never want to join a group that had a stated aim of excluding me... Kind of like blacks or jews joining the Klan....

D. Holloway
Friday, June 14, 2002

D. Holloway,
so what are you suggesting, that we give citizenship rights
to H1B holders?

Please tell us more....

[
I know I'd never want to join a group that had a stated aim of excluding me... Kind of like blacks or jews joining the Klan....
]

Doug G.
Friday, June 14, 2002

D. H

The minute H1B holders are obligated to uphold the constitution of the United States, and defend her boarders/interests, I would be the first to welcome them!

Including being shipped off to WAR!! 
[I think most of us remember having to register for selective service at some point in life?]

Until then WTF??


[---
I know I'd never want to join a group that had a stated aim of excluding me... Kind of like blacks or jews joining the Klan....

--]

Larry from Queens
Friday, June 14, 2002

DH is either a H1B broker or a manager that uses them, period!!

Typical management tactic; plant seeds of conflict among them.

>>
I know I'd never want to join a group that had a stated aim of excluding me... Kind of like blacks or jews joining the Klan....
<<

Paul
Friday, June 14, 2002

D. Holloway's posting incorporates methods of argument that are objectionable.  One of these is the use of inaccurate and inflammatory language.  Another is innuendo.

Mr. Holloway's use of the adjective "xenophobic" as a descriptor of the Programmers Guild is inaccurate.  According to Merriam Webster's online dictionary, the word means "unduly fearful of what is foreign and especially of people of foreign origin" but this is not a feature of the organization.  In particular, it is not a feature of its political agenda or bylaws.

Mr. Holloway's use of a simile in which Ku Klux Klan is an example of innuendo.  That the Programmers Guild is being compared to a violently racist organization may appear to place the Programmers Guild in the same category, though this is completely untrue. 

By the use of these tactics, Mr. Holloway mounts the type of argument that is termed "ad hominem" by logicians.  Ad hominem argumentation is one of the ways in which one can argue fallaciously.  Though such arguments fail, they are often favored by people who do not care to address the issue under discussio9n.  Wishing to avoid this issue, one makes one's opponent the issue.

Programmers Guild member
Friday, June 14, 2002

I left a phrase out of my previous posting.  Please edit "Mr. Holloway's use of a simile in which Ku Klux Klan is an example of innuendo" to read "Mr. Holloway's use of a simile in which the Programmers Guild is juxtaposed to the Ku Klux Klan is an example of innuendo"

Programmers Guild member
Friday, June 14, 2002

PGM,

I agree with you. The idea is to discredit somebodys opinion on an issue by implying extremes. This has the effect of alienating the person, and by default the opinion they hold. Its greatest effect is upon non involved people, in most cases voters, who do not spend time thinking through the issues.

In a situation like this, in an area where everybody here has a vested interest, the agrument is a waste of fingertip skin.

Tony
Friday, June 14, 2002

whoops typo - argument

Tony
Friday, June 14, 2002

Mr. Holloway has his facts seriously distorted. H-1B holders get no preference whatsoever when it comes to getting green cards. H-1B is intended as a temporary-only visa. People coming to the U.S. on H-1B visas with the intention of staying permanently ARE ABUSING THE SYSTEM. It is because H-1B holders have abused the system in this way that the employment-based green card system has become impossible for employers to use. Since the start of the H-1B program, the green card queue has grown by a factor of ten.

A good reform would be to return to the restrictions of the earlier H visa where guest workers could not apply for green cards.

Race baiters like Mr. Holloway are exactly the kind of scum that the U.S. should keep out of the country.

To "hot for teacher", I will point out that the median salary for programmers in the U.S. is about $58,000. A teacher (with the summer off) making $55,000 is doing better than the average programmer.

To "In DC" I will point out that the Department of Labor has declared the retraining fees to be "totally ineffective". The Bush administration has proposed that this money be used instead to speed up the processing of paperwork for importing foreign programmers.

I should also add that the retraining fees were never intended for training Americans. In 1998 Bill Clinton "friend of labor" had promised to veto the H-1B expansion bill. Industry's solution was to throw him a fundraiser at the home of John Doerr. The retraining fees were add to the bill at the last minute to give Clinton cover so he could flip-flop on his veto threat, which he did just two days before picking up his cash for doing so.

As for Federal government jobs excluding h-1b workers, the DoD had only proposed that they undergo security checks. The industry lobbyists have already made them back down from that modest proposal.

To "fence jumper" I will point out that the cost of an H-1B visa, including legal fees is about $2,500. The law does not guarentee that H-1B workers make the same wage as Americans. It requires employers to pay within "95% of the prevailing wage". However, it allows the employer to determine what the prevailing wage is and, when making a LCA to certify that wage the government is only allowed to check that the form is filled out correctly. We recently posted an example on the guild web site of how an employer replaced Americans with H-1B workers and paid them less than half what the Americans were making.

Your claim that H-1B keeps jobs in America is absurd. The offshore development companies are dependent upon H-1B to provide on-site support for their opperations. NASSCOM (the Indian ITAA) claimed that passage of the 2000 H-1B expansion bill would increase offshore development in India by 40%.

Finally, to Bella 100% raises every six months. Maybe to Hugh MCColl and Charles Wang but for the programming profession as a whole (according to the BLS) salary increases were less than professional occupations as whole. According to congressional testimony programmer salaries rose 2% a year from 1990 to 1998.

Guild Chairman
Friday, June 14, 2002

D Holloway is exhibiting some intellectual sloth or dishonesty, at any rate. Many of the posters on this stream that oppose H1B are instead calling for giving these people full rights as immigrants.
It's not the immigration that's the issue, it's the indentured servitude. At the risk of being relevant, I'll repeat from one of my earlier posts and point out that the free agency of labor is one of the most important pillars of capitalism. H1B is an anti-capitalistic program instituted for certain privileged people and their companies.

skautsch
Friday, June 14, 2002

And for Bella's question about why more of us were not concerned about this issue a few years ago: Because we did not understand the issue. I only became fully aware of this recently, because, like most programmers, I thought that there was no need to take my nose out of the code.

It's *that* attitude - that we software people have no need of any political awareness outside of our religious wars over programming languages and methodologies - that has placed us over this barrel.

My hat is off to the Guild people. I hope to read your site as soon as I get the time.

skautsch
Friday, June 14, 2002

BLS for the accronym challenged amoung us:

http://www.bls.gov/

XP Man
Friday, June 14, 2002

skautsch very well stated :-).

In other words folks:  "Cloud Minders"

>>H1B is an anti-capitalistic program instituted for certain privileged people and their companies. <<

Casual Observer
Friday, June 14, 2002

So I wonder if all data is actually "REAL" ??
:-).  Watch your step folks ... your Tax dollars at work.

Oh while you're at it visit this page also:
http://www.bls.gov/mls/home.htm#data

[
Casual Observer wrote ---

A) All issues raised in this forum are absolutely valid.
b) We should not allow, emotion to detract from the central theme.
c) Critical unemotional numerical analsys is manadatory...
let the results speak for themselves.

Again! This is not about us vs. them(indian,asians,insert your flavor here)

It's about ascertaining whether or not we're in danger of exceeding carrying capacity for the overall system.

]

XP Man
Friday, June 14, 2002

Speed it up??
It must be a genetic defect in the Bush Family!!

""IT REALLY IS THE ECONOMY STUPID, REALLY""

[<
CPG wrote:

To "In DC" I will point out that the Department of Labor has declared the retraining fees to be "totally ineffective". The Bush administration has proposed that this money be used instead to speed up the processing of paperwork for importing foreign programmers.

>]

...Looking Over Your Shoulder...
Saturday, June 15, 2002

Anyone know the Senate and House H-1B bills that were voted on?  I want to look up the voting history for my congressmen on these measures.

I figure anyone's who's got the time to vent here has got the time to vent to their elected officials.

Thanks,
Nick

she who knows me by my sausage is my wife
Saturday, June 15, 2002

For anyone interested, Cloud Minders defined:
It should be sitting right next to your copy of Mythical Man Month.

Benjamin; Korten, "Illusions of the Cloud Minders"
http://www.bkpub.com/products/productshow.adp?code=300
http://www.silcom.com/~manatee/korten_when.html

>>
David Korten, armed with an MBA and PhD from Stanford Business School, and thirty years of overseas experience actually seeing the effects of economic growth, says Not So Fast.

He says that mankind, Americans included, have been using earth's finite resources as if they were infinite. He talks about transnational corporations that may be headquartered in a certain country, but owe their allegiance to whoever has the lowest tax rate on corporate profits. Also mentioned are corporate CEOs who lay off thousands of employees, then are treated as heroes by their boards of directors and Wall Street for their bold leadership.

Korten also has a wonderful metaphor for life in contemporary America. One of the episodes of the first Star Trek series was called "The Cloud Minders". It took place on a planet where the elite lived in a city on a cloud called Stratos where they had the best of everything. The dirty, dangerous ore mining that made Stratos possible took place on the planet surface. The surface dwellers had no opportunity to experience life on Stratos, and the residents of Stratos had no desire to experience life on the planet surface
<<

Dick H.
Saturday, June 15, 2002

Check out:
http://profiles.numbersusa.com/
http://www.numbersusa.com/index


>>Anyone know the Senate and House H-1B bills that were voted on? I want to look up the voting history for my congressmen on these measures.
<<

Dick H.
Saturday, June 15, 2002

Larry from Queens...

Thanks for the link, very interesting. I have'nt finished it all yet, but I will read it all, its very informative and relevant, although somewhat depressing.

Tony
Saturday, June 15, 2002

I think that issues like this constitute the other reason that there aren't more older programmers. After a certain amount of time in the job market, the dumb programmers get weeded out, and many of the smarter programmers realize that the game in their chosen field is fixed and decide to move on to greener pastures.

BTW, I think the people who believe that the current system is a free market are naive: competing with 2,000,000 (two million) indentured servants is competing on a field heavily biased in favor of the companies that do the hiring.

This may even result in an ugly positive feedback loop. Since there are better career choices for college students to make, fewer people would choose the field. More people in the field would find something else that is better for them. Once the economy recovers, this would result in an even larger "shortage" that will be filled by yet more H1-B indentured servants. And so it would spiral out of control...

What I find interesting (and a little pathetic) is that some non-programmer labor organizations appear to protest the H1-B visa issue even more strongly than those in the programming field, because they are politically and socially astute enough to realize that if it can be done with software, it could ultimately be done with a lot of other professions as well, from airline pilots to assembly line workers, and most groups inbetween.

Donald
Saturday, June 15, 2002

Nick, my knowledge on h1b legislation is not complete, but here's a start:

1. Tancredo is trying to get up a good Bill called HR 3222: Tancredo High-Tech Work Fairness Act, which would return the H-1B visa limit back to the pre-1998 cap of 65,000 per year. Contact your representative and tell him or her to support the Bill:
http://congress.org/congressorg/webreturn/?url=/caps/issues/alert/?alertid=75822

2. Some bad H1-B Bills from the past include S 1723 and HR 4227. Voting patterns on H1B issues are recorded at the zazona site, but look like they might be out of date.
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/PoliticalFoes.htm
http://www.zazona.com/ShameH1B/PoliticalAllies.htm

3. You can track your representatives' future voting patterns online:
http://congress.org/congressorg/megavote/

4. The IEEE has good tips on contacting your representatives to communicate your views. Letters and phone calls usually carry more weight than email.
http://capwiz.com/ieeeusa/issues/basics/?style=comm

Others may have more up to date information on this.

Hugh Wells
Saturday, June 15, 2002

To "hot for teacher", I will point out that the median salary for programmers in the U.S. is about $58,000. A teacher (with the summer off) making $55,000 is doing better than the average programmer.


An entry level programmer can easily make more than a veteran year teacher.  In my area, experienced programmers make $80-250k (depending if theyre FT or hourly).  Teachers don't make anywhere NEAR that. 

Bella
Saturday, June 15, 2002

> Finally, to Bella 100% raises every six months. Maybe to Hugh MCColl and Charles Wang but for the programming profession as a whole (according to the BLS) salary increases were less than professional occupations as whole. According to congressional testimony programmer salaries rose 2% a year from 1990 to 1998.

Ahh, I know where we differ.  I believe your statistics do not take into account job hopping.  Sad but true, that's where the real raises occur.  In hindsight, I never even noticed if I ever got a raise when working at the same firm.  If I did, it was trivial.  Those gov't stats are a joke.

That said, anecdotally, people were getting 100% raises all over the place.  In the 1990's, a typical, realistic, programer salary scale was as following:  Entry level start at $30k. Get experience.  After 2 years or less, switch jobs and make $55k.  (80% raise)  After another 2 years, get a senior level team leader type job at ~ $100k (80% raise).  After that, with 6+ years of well rounded, diverse experience, with some mgmt skills, become a contractor for $100hr, at which you can clear $250k+ (100%+ raise). 

PS: Don't believe every staistic you read.  The government denied a recession until a year after it started.  Every quarter, economists tell you that next quarter will see a recovery.  People, including yourself, use statistics for ONE reason.  To push their agenda. 

Bella
Saturday, June 15, 2002

To Bella:

The BLS gets it average programmer salary by doing a statistical sampling, adding all the programmer salaries together, and dividing by the number in the sample. The BLS has access to this data by a number of mechanisms, notably through state unemployment insurance records.

While there are programmers who make the kind of money you are talking about (including myself), they are extremely rare (almost exclusively consultants). 95% of programmers make less than than $85,000 a year.  I pay for state-mandated unemplyment insurance so I know my salary is getting counted in the numbers.

guild chairman
Saturday, June 15, 2002

The Warped Sense of Values:
H1B Industry -->  Legal Human Trafficing by any other name!

Notice below that there's no mention of people in the transactions.  No mention of Kumar from bombay, No mention of Mariano from Minila.
It's the nature of the business. Welcome to the world of human trafficers.
These are the very same people we're trusting our futures with.
We willing give them the keys to our hopes and our dreams.

It really is nothing more than a CARTEL, with multi-national suppliers at the bottom, attorneys/lobbists in the middle, and corporations consuming the end product at the top.

This has nothing to do with intelligence or working hard.
Why? The two forementioned points merely deflect away from the truth. 
They don't want you or I to think critically and be part of the decision making process. 

It's funny really, Engineers collectively have the best scholastic aptitude for math/statistics.
Our ablities to find trends and make sense of complex systems, is without equal. 
Yet we choose directly or indirectly to not look at the simplest problem of all.

Well you no-longer have an excuse.  The problem domain is well defined.  The data is only a mouse click and URL away.  Apply the greatest computer(the thing between your ears), and make your own informed conclusions.

A bit of perspective: (This is Big business)
Total gross receipts for the Movie industry last year was ~$8,000,000,000.
Total gross for computer/console based games last year was ~$10,000,000,000.


             

TIc(yr)      => The Incentive yearly
PF            => H1B processing fee
qt/yr        => # H1B's processed each yr
qt(90-02)    => estimated total, 1990-2002

PF    = $2500 - $10,000  (depending on sources)
qt/yr = 200,000 - 265,000 (depending on sources)

TIc(yr)        = PF*qt/yr
TIc(2002)      = ($2500) *(200,000)
TIc(2002)      = ($10000) *(200,000)
(a). [TIc(2002) = ~$500,000,000 -> $1,000,000,000]
(b). [TIc(2002) = ~$2,000,000,000 -> $3,000,000,000]

TIc(qt(90-02))  = ~PF*qt(90-02)
TIc(qt(90-02))  = ~($2500) *(200,000*(02-90))
TIc(qt(90-02))  = ~($2500) *(200,000*(12))
(c).[TIc(qt(90-02)) = ~$6,000,000,000 -> $10,000,000,000]
(d).[TIc(qt(90-02)) = ~$24,000,000,000 -> $40,000,000,000]

=========================================
(a) estimated gross receipts for H1B related tranactions based on the $2,500 per unit, year 2002
(b) estimated gross receipts for H1B related tranactions based on the $10,000 per unit year 2002
(c)estimated gross receipts for H1B related transactions from 1990-Current based on $2,500
(d)estimated gross receipts for H1B related transactions from 1990-Current based on $10,000

=========================================

Making Sense Of The Insantity
Saturday, June 15, 2002

[Anyone know the Senate and House H-1B bills that were voted on? I want to look up the voting history for my congressmen on these measures.]

NumbersUsa ( http://www.numbersusa.com ) has the voting history of your congressman on all immigration related legislation, including H-1B visa legislation.

By the way, members of congress have voted overwhelmingly for expansion of the H-1B visa in each of the two times that they have voted on this issue.  Also, a scientific poll taken in the fall of 1998 (IEEE-Harris poll) established that their constituents were overwhelmingly AGAINST these expansions.

The evidence suggests that the motivating factor in the defiance of their constituents by members of Congress was to pay off members' financial supporters.

The computer industry spends about $40 million per year on lobbying of Congress.  Programmers spend almost nothing.

Programmers Guild member
Saturday, June 15, 2002

Looks like that ludicrous spreadsheet basically killed this debate.  Oh well, I was enjoying it. 

Bella
Sunday, June 16, 2002

Bella,

It looks more like a illustration of the financial incentive lobbists/attorneys and by direct inference pro H1B PAC,
have in keeping the gravy train rolling.


It actually might be worth trying to follow the trial of this money to see where it ends-up.

My quess is at least parts of it end up in campaign war chests.

For those with a bit more wisdom on the topic of campaign finance, what are the current contribution limits for corporations to candidates and PAC's in general?

Doug G.
Sunday, June 16, 2002

Doug G,
I don't have a lot expertise in campaign finance issues,
but I did a search on google and found the following:

http://www.opensecrets.org/

Seems to be a  self help guide to understanding the various campaign finance related issues.

When you hear all this stuff being discussed by "Talking Heads" on TV, it seems so abstract and esoteric, because I think hey, this doesn't affect me.

Reading through some of the discussion in this forum, actually helped to connect the dots....,
It was like "Hey what's my congressman up to?"

Unethical Leaders, Remember Enron
Sunday, June 16, 2002

"Remember Eron,"
thanks for the link, good info there.

"Bella",
take a look at this:
the first is actually kinda of interesting seems to give the amounts that law firms/lawyers contributed.

http://www.opensecrets.org/industries/indus.asp?Ind=K01

Second link is a by industry snap shot.
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/index.asp

So my question is, if all these special interest groups belived so much in fair markets, competitive landscapes and other such jargon,  Why do they need to "Buy influence" on policy matters that affect their bottom lines?

FYI: the above just an observation.

J.W.
Sunday, June 16, 2002

Chairman, The Programmers Guild,
So what are you guys doing to "PROACTIVELY" inform people in the industry of what's going on.

I can't recall hearing anything about your group until this last week.

What approachs are you using to get the message out?

Is there an action plan or is the model more a word of mouth and carrier pigeon?

J.W.
Sunday, June 16, 2002

[So what are you guys doing to "PROACTIVELY" inform people in the industry of what's going on.

I can't recall hearing anything about your group until this last week.

What approachs are you using to get the message out?

Is there an action plan or is the model more a word of mouth and carrier pigeon?]

The approaches that we have taken thus far are ones that do not require money.  This has been required because we started out with no money and still have little of it.

The mechanisms have included 1) a Web site  http://www.programmersguild.org/american 2) doing things to elicit press coverage, for example, we've picketed the NASDAQ in New York City and Congresswoman Zoe Lofgren's office in San Jose and testified in Congressional hearings 3) participating in on-line forums, such as this one.

We would be more effective if we had enough money to be able to afford to put out press releases and pay for advertising.  In order to have this kind of money, we need a lot more members.

Programmers Guild member
Sunday, June 16, 2002

Save your breath.  What's there to say?  "Folks, please use these American materials (uhh, that's us) to build your products.  Yes, I know that approach costs 5 times more, but I need a way to keep making my the payments on my foreign made car and appliances.  (A much better deal b/c of their low prodiction costs...oh wait...nevermind" 

The hypocrisy of this debate sickens me. 

Bella
Monday, June 17, 2002

[Save your breath. What's there to say? "Folks, please use these American materials (uhh, that's us) to build your products. Yes, I know that approach costs 5 times more, but I need a way to keep making my the payments on my foreign made car and appliances. (A much better deal b/c of their low prodiction costs...oh wait...nevermind"

The hypocrisy of this debate sickens me.]

I'm not clear on what the author feels is hypocritical.  Perhaps he can explain.

It sounds as though his statement equates free trade in goods to free trade in labor.  Thus, the suggestion seems to be, one is hypocritical if one buys foreign-made goods while opposing opening the borders of the U.S. to workers from abroad.  Problems with this argument include 1) it has not been established that contributers to the forum buy foreign-made goods and 2) buying foreign-made goods while opposing free trade in labor is not hypocritical, for goods and labor are different entities.

My own view on this is that free trade in goods is a wise policy for the U.S. under most circumstances and that the case for free trade in labor is hard to make.  If any members of the forum disagree on this, perhaps they will be willing to make the case for why free trade in labor would be a sound policy for the U.S.

Programmers Guild member
Monday, June 17, 2002

"It sounds as though his statement equates free trade in goods to free trade in labor"

Sure.  Why not?  Labor makes goods... labor is just another kind of "goods".  Cheaper labor is one thing that enables us to purchase lower cost goods.  Why would it matter where the cheaper labor resides?

Joe AA.
Monday, June 17, 2002

["It sounds as though his statement equates free trade in goods to free trade in labor"

Sure. Why not? Labor makes goods... labor is just another kind of "goods". Cheaper labor is one thing that enables us to purchase lower cost goods. Why would it matter where the cheaper labor resides?]

Arguments for free trade in goods usually incorporate the mathematical model that is called Comparative Advantage.  An economist  ( http://internationalecon.com/v1.0/ch40/40c000.html: ) describes the assumptions of Comparative Advantage this way:

"In its most simple form the model assumes two countries producing two goods using labor as the only factor of production. Goods are assumed homogeneous (identical) across firms and countries. Labor is homogeneous within a country but heterogeneous (non-identical) across countries. Goods can be transported costlessly between countries. Labor can be reallocated costlessly between industries within a country but cannot move between countries. Labor is always fully employed. Production technology differences across industries and across countries and are reflected in labor productivity parameters. The labor and goods markets are assumed to be perfectly competitive in both countries. Firms are assumed to maximize profit while consumers (workers) are assumed to maximize utility."

Comparative Advantage demonstrates that, when these assumptions are valid, the aggregate production of the two nations is greater with free trade than without it.

When labor becomes free to migrate across national borders, a number of costs may be incurred that are not assumed by Comparative Advantage.  Among these are:
o Exponential growth in a nation's population
o The demise of a nation's security system.
o The demise of a nation's welfare system
o The demise of a nation's justice system
o Confiscation of private property by the state
o Civil war
o The negation of contracts
o Communism
o The breakdown of highways, sewer systems, electric grids, educational systems, medical systems

Prosperous, democratic countries are rare in history, suggesting rarity of the conditions that are necessary for them.  Throw open the borders of the U.S. to the people of the world and you get regression to the nasty, grubby mean, it seems to me.   

Programmers Guild member
Monday, June 17, 2002

I couldn't get your link to work.  I have no problems with free trade.  So I don't know if the "conclusions" due to free migration of labor are by the economist author or someone else just as paranoid.

There is no rational basis / premise to place the list of "effects" as a direct cause of labor migration.

Plus it stinks.  It asserts free trade can only exist when labor / workers are maintained as virtual slaves within their country.  Doesn't that smell like communism and border walls like those which existed in Berlin?

Joe AA.
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

[I don't know if the "conclusions" due to free migration of labor are by the economist author or someone else]

The economist's remarks are in quotes.  The list of bulleted items are by me.  The bulleted items are not conclusions but rather possibilities.

Programmers Guild member
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

[I don't know if the "conclusions" due to free migration of labor are by the economist author or someone else just as paranoid]

Application of a perjorative such as "paranoid" to one's opponent is an example of an ad hominem argument.  Ad hominem arguments are invalid.

Programmers Guild member
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

[There is no rational basis / premise to place the list of "effects" as a direct cause of labor migration.]

I did not mean to imply that the list of bulleted items were CAUSES of migration but rather that they were possible EFFECTS of migration.  It is impossible to argue that they are not possible effects, for some of them have already occurred.

One that is occurring now is exponential growth of the population of the U.S.  One that occurred in the recent past is the breakdown in national security that allowed theattacks of Sept. 11 to take place.  Remaining items on the list are calamities that recur in the history of the world.  That some of them would result from opening the borders of the U.S. seems extremely probable to me.

Is the ruin of a civilization a possible consequence of abandoning control over migration?  Consider the following excerpt from Edward Gibbon's "Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire":

"The rise of a city, which swelled into an Empire, may deserve, as a singular prodigy, the reflection of a philosophic mind. But the decline of Rome was the natural and inevitable effect of immoderate greatness. Prosperity ripened the principle of decay; the causes of destruction multiplied with the extent of conquest; and, as soon as time or accident had removed the artificial supports, the stupendous fabric yielded to the pressure of its own weight. The story of its ruin is simple and obvious; and, instead of inquiring why the Roman empire was destroyed, we should rather be surprised that it had subsisted so long. The victorious legions, who, in distant wars, acquired the vices of strangers and mercenaries, first oppressed the freedom of the republic, and afterwards violated the majesty of the purple. The emperors, anxious for their personal safety and the public peace, were reduced to the base expedient of corrupting the discipline which rendered them alike formidable to their sovereign and to the enemy; the vigour of the military government was relaxed, and finally dissolved, by the partial institutions of Constantine; and the Roman world was overwhelmed by a deluge of Barbarians. "



 

 

Programmers Guild member
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

"Application of a perjorative such as "paranoid" to one's opponent is an example of an ad hominem argument. Ad hominem arguments are invalid."

But global sweeping statements of the "commies are coming" without anything to back it up is completely valid.  Oh sure, I see the logic in that.  BTW, you obviously didn't catch that I said - which was the cause of your paranoid list of effects even after pasting it back in.

If you believe that the fall of the roman empire had it's basis in migration (which isn't mentioned as a cause)... then do you also support a strong police state able to steal from it's workers at the point of a gun only to keep the modern version of "emperors" tushy... cushy?

Sounds like a "baffle them with BS" argument to me.

Joe AA.
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

[Oh sure, I see the logic in that. BTW, you obviously didn't catch that I said - which was the cause of your paranoid list of effects even after pasting it back in.]

I'm unable to parse this sentence under the rules of English grammar.  However, its reuse of the term "paranoid" in reference to me repeats the ad hominem attack made previously.  As debate with an opponent who violates the rules is usually fruitless, I am withdrawing from this one.

Programmers Guild member
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

Programmers Guild member and Joe AA,
as a favor to everyone else, please speak in english.

I'm sure both your points contain valuable kernels of wisdom and insight.  However the content contained there-in seems to have drifted off into the weeds.

Larry From Queens
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

Hey Mister Unethical,
that opensecrets.org site is very sweet.
Thanks for putting that up.

Tony buddy,
... did you finish reading Matloff's treatice?
yeah I know it's F..king depressing, but hey now we know.

Larry From Queens
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

> Is it not similar to product dumping? Also why isn't this happening to MD's or JD's?

Not MDs or Lawyers etc. because those professions offer a service to the public, whereas programmers offer a product (software).

> I mean, not to seem anti-capalist or anything....
but 3 million H1B visas seems like a lot.

Apart from H1Bs, multinational companies lay off developers in the US, and create new R&D positions in India and Canada and Europe and the Pacific ... and vice versa.

Even "3 million" is barely 1% of the US population, and less than 1% of the number of programmers world-wide.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

And So you point is?

Based on your assertion that programmers don't provide a service, then how do you account of the likes of EDS, CA, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, SAIC, Reuters, and heck even fog creek software?

All the fore mentioned organization have significant portions of their bottom lines coming from services rendered to their respective clients.  These services are provide by none other than programmers.

Your point with respect to percentages of population and so on, is devoid of any meanful information.

#of MD's in the USA is ~600K-700K or roughly 1 MD for
every 300-400 man/woman/child.  All indications are if this ratio were substantially increased, there would be a corresponding descrease in the quality of care to patients[at least that the common argument].

One suspects the same general numbers hold true for JD's.

Just a side point, creating good software ultimately is not a numbers game. It takes focus, it takes discipline, and above all planning/execution.

For the record, I agree with an earlier posting that the H1B should be instantly rolled back!! If they want to come to US and stay, they should be willing to come in the front door and declare the intention do so up front.







[> Is it not similar to product dumping? Also why isn't this happening to MD's or JD's?

Not MDs or Lawyers etc. because those professions offer a service to the public, whereas programmers offer a product (software).

> I mean, not to seem anti-capalist or anything....
but 3 million H1B visas seems like a lot.

Apart from H1Bs, multinational companies lay off developers in the US, and create new R&D positions in India and Canada and Europe and the Pacific ... and vice versa.

Even "3 million" is barely 1% of the US population, and less than 1% of the number of programmers world-wide.

]

Larry from Queens
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

> And So you point is? Based on your assertion that programmers don't provide a service, then how do you account of the likes of EDS, CA, Oracle, IBM, Microsoft, SAIC, Reuters, and heck even fog creek software?

If you (a layperson) hire a professional to do you a personal service, then supposedly you need consumer protection re. that *person's* professional qualifications.

The issue is different when you're buying a product e.g. from Sony: you're buying a product instead of a service and so you have consumer protection of a different kind, and the manufacturer has more leeway over their manufacturing process, including how and where they choose their employees.

> Your point with respect to percentages of population and so on, is devoid of any meanful information.

At less than 1% of total number of programmers world-wide, my guess is that H1Bs matter less.

Christopher Wells
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

It's still devoid.

We're talking about developers in the US and the one's trying to overun the local market(H1B).  So any comparisions outside the scope is meanless, and yes devoid as originally stated.

It's just a crazy[meaningless] as the following statement:
Hmm boy the US is only 250*10^6(~3%) of total world population(~7*10^9), so why not allow an additional 3% of the world population onto your land masses?



[
> Your point with respect to percentages of population and so on, is devoid of any meanful information.

At less than 1% of total number of programmers world-wide, my guess is that H1Bs matter less.

]

Larry From Queens
Tuesday, June 18, 2002

> It's still devoid. We're talking about developers in the US and the one's trying to overun the local market(H1B). So any comparisions outside the scope is meanless, and yes devoid as originally stated.

"Overun the market" is wrong. Programmers create the market that they work in. I came here 10 years ago, someone hired me, built a company of 60 people, sold it to a rich American multi-national which laid off 40 people (laid off everyone but the developers). Three years later this same multi-national lays off 100 developers in the US, and moves some of its software product development and maintenance abroad (creating 100 new jobs here and in India).

Christopher Wells
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

Christoper Wells, I'm certain you mean well and perhaps under different circumstances your point would indeed be valid.

I would suggest reading the following, as it will give you a better perspective of issues currently being debated:

http://heather.cs.ucdavis.edu/itaa.real.html

You see most developers in the USA really don't have the option of relocating to India.

Larry From Queens
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

If you don't fit the criteria of what the industry needs, I suggest you either:
a) Start your own profitable firm
b) Learn a new profession

Ranting and raving and complaining about unfairness will not help you or your children.

Bella
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

Bella,
Informing fellow developers by making them aware of articles they probably need to read, can hardly be called ranting.

You see, I still unfortunately believe in the antiquated notion of in formed choices[sharing information is a good thing].

The impression one gets from your various posts, seems to imply, in on form or other, that you would prefer otherwise["the less that are informed the better it is for you"]

I am sure this is probably not your intended objective, however it would appear that is the impression you are giving[Think and reflect].

Also please remember the following:

The spirit of this entire debate, is not about a specific persons situation, rather it's about the current state of the industry we consider to be our [profession].

There are times in ones life when a bit of selflessness is called for.  When one's actions isn't for self gain but rather for the betterment of the whole.

We must in all good conscience, allow others to empower themselve through informed choices.

Have a wonderful Day


[Ranting and raving and complaining about unfairness will not help you or your children]

Larry From Queens
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

Bella, do you know why CEO's get paid a fortune? One reason is that they're adept at screwing their workforce.

As I've mentioned before, this is not an issue of science; it's a battle between one group of interests ( senior corporate management and shareholders ) and another, being hard working, highly trained technology workers.

Technology workers are just as entitled to have their interests represented as are the other interests.

Hugh Wells
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

I agree, Hugh.  I wish you good luck on your crusade.

Bella
Wednesday, June 19, 2002

Thanks, Bella.

Hugh Wells
Thursday, June 20, 2002

There are some true feelings here. I have setup a website for protesting H-1Bs. The url is http://www.h1bprotest.com You are more than welcome to become apart of our team and contribute to the protesting of the H-1B program.

Casey Wright
Thursday, August 15, 2002

I saw some interesting articles on www.h1bvisasucks.com
This seems to provide some insight into the issues
not seen elsewhere.

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_jordon.htm

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_sec.htm

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_mckinsey.htm
Note: Mr. Gupta went to India with Clinton cost the US Taxpayer 1/2 Billion on the Indian Power Plant. Via the
Mgt. consulting firm recommends that everyone use
H1B labor and/or outsource work to India. he states this
to firms like Johnson & Johnson etc.

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_clinton.htm

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_dwyer.htm

http://www.h1bvisasucks.com/H1BDiscussions_issue_rico.htm

This web site will help inform people and put a face on the
real people pushing H1B Visa immigration onto the US
Landscape.

I am asking if you would consider as a reference link
to the information on this site.


Art
Monday, September 09, 2002

I am seeing so many people against H1bs here. I have been looking for a better job now for almost 6 months and I see MANY ads w/"sorry no sponsorship", "no H1Bs" and US Citizen/GC Holders only. Why the hell are u guys beating a dead cow? We already have an advantage over H1Bs even before the application process starts so what r ya whiners complaining about?

Frnk
Friday, November 15, 2002

I have been out of work for more than 8 months now.  That is why I am angry with the H1B visa program.  I makes me sick when I think that I can't even get an interview!  I have over 16 years of IT experiance, I haver cut my salary expectations in half, yet I was just beat out by another H1B visa person for a job.  Why, he came in lower than me! 

Why should we keep the doors open for out of country workers, when our unemployment is going up? I did not mind this when there was plenty of work, but the fact is, I do think that I deserve a chance a a job before they do.

Carl
Friday, December 20, 2002

You are all barking at the wrong tree. The real culprit for loss of jobs is not H1B, but "OPEN SOURCE FREE SOFTWARE". As long as geeks are willing to sell themselfs cheap, you will see the job market and salaries going down.

indian_programmer
Friday, December 27, 2002

I'm a visa H1-B holder. I make more money here than I did in my country, and I make more money than many american programmers. The fact is: my company was looking for a bilingual, UML capable, programmer of XSL , Java, Oracle, ASP, SQL Server for 7 months, for ongoing projects with difficult clients. Do you know how many qualified applicants did they find? Well, guess what: I'm here.
I've trained so far 8 American programmers. Do you think it's a bad deal?

Juan
Tuesday, January 21, 2003

I am a KKK recruiter. Fuck all the foreigners. Join KKK.

www.kkk.com

white power!!!

kkk
Sunday, April 13, 2003

I think more American workers should apply for Indian Job
VISA and just live in India (Bangalore, Hyderabad, Chennai)
for a couple of years and try things out there.

Just a Though. Most American biggies in the silicon Valley
have either visited India or have lived with Indians.

This concept may add to the existing perspective of what India is...

Just a though!!!

Will go to timbucktoo to keep my family happy.

Software worker
Tuesday, May 27, 2003

You guys are pathetic.  Com on!!! Get a friggin clue!

It's really shocking how little of you know the facts out there.

For one, NO, h1b programmers are not paid the same as natives. There is absolutely no check of this.  Employers can write anything down on the LCA petition and there is NO check if they even pay that!

Americans cannot find work because they lack skills. In every case I have seen, the H1Bs replacing them are infantile and stupid by comparison, and there is no comparison in terms of skills level.  But american's cannot find work in a labor market for tech that:
    Has 4.5 million jobs available
    2 million of those are held by h1Bs
    400,000 are held by L1s

and an additional 700,000 immigrants are coming into the country each year.

Some other silly misses.

NO, microsoft is not 35% h1bs! Any company over 15% h1b is considered h1b dependent and has stricter rules. Even if a company IS 35% h1bs, they will find a way to split up the workers so no one realizes it.

Finally, NO, americans are NOT free to work in India. For one, the visa requirements are prohibitive. Secondly, America will still tax americans on their wages in India, which means they will NOT be able to afford to work there, while India does NOT tax Indians on wages earned in America.

Anyone who is not Indian will immediately see that the American worker has been sold out, cheated, and abused by greedy politicians.  Any Indian who cannot see the truth, well I don't blame them. They've been lied to for years and told that they have great programmers when the reality is 99.9999% of them are pathetic and incompetent and have no ability to design or think for themselves.

John Stevens
Sunday, June 15, 2003

John,

You are pathetic man !!

1. H1B programmers ARE paid the same as natives.. H1b is approved only on that condition..  Even if they are paid less, remember H1bs are paying social security, not a penny of which they get back. They can stay only for six years, and the social security paid by them is used by us, natives !

2. There are 4.5 million jobs, alright.. but have you forgotten about Open Source? With the growth of open source, companies get everything free.. No wonder you are seeing drops in pay ! The threat to wages is not from H1bs or immigrants.. its open source !!  Thats exactly why Microsoft has been fighting against open source !

3. 700,000 immigrants coiming into the country every year !!  c'mon.. H1b cap is only 195,000 every year and from next year, its only 65,000. The cap hasn't even reached last year... which means less than 195K are coming in? Where did you get the 700K from? Oh.. are you counting the illegal mexicans??  Are they also taking away your jobs??

4. 35% of Microsoft are H1bs?? You're right.. any company over 15% is H1b dependent.  But you've got the Math all wrong, buddy..  Truly, 35% of Microsoft are immigrants or second generation immigrants..  Just because they look like Indians or Chinese doesn't mean they are H1bs !  Moreover, Microsoft, IBM, Oracle and all the big wigs now openly say that most of their revenue comes from Asia and outside US.. Why the hell would they still be in North America?? Ofcourse, they will go outside.. They will go where the market is !!  And have you forgotten that the whole world uses our software !  All of our software from our companies are being used all over the world.. When everyone else pays for our software..  When they give our products access to their markets... why can't we give their products (be it manpower or whatever) access to our markets !!  If the Asian market, the major revenue earner for our software industry puts a ban, like how you are willing to put a ban on H1 industry, we are all doomed buddy.. The revenues will dip.. and you and I can find a job at Mc Donalds !!

5. Again you're wrong.. Americans ARE free to work in India !  I travelled to India to work there.. and I could get the visa very easily..  When $1 = 50 Indian currency, it'll cost you less than $100 to get your paper work done.. Is that too expensive for you?? 

6. We pay taxes to Uncle Sam, when we work in India, but we dont pay taxes to the Indian government !  On the contrary, when they come here, they pay taxes to our government and none to their country !!!  Who is benefitting here ???  Clearly its us !!  If they dont come here, the jobs are going to go there.. including the taxes, social security pay, consumer spending, etc..

7. Well, I am not sure about the Indians design skills.. but as far as I know, they are good programmers.. I wouldn't say the best.. In fact, I found few natives to be the best programmers..  We have programmers of all skill levels.. from worst to best.. but they are all average..  a few may be comparable to our best !

Now, having said that, heres the reason for the economic suffering, unemployment and wage cuts we are facing :

Ever since Columbus discovered America, immigrants have been coming into this country.. from Africa, China, Ireland, Germany, rest of Europe, Russia, etc.. up until now..  After 9-11, immigrant inflow is going down.. What does this mean for us :

Well, the whole US GDP is driven by and depends on consumer spending. These immigrants, when they come in, they buy new cars, new furniture, rent apartments, pay taxes, pay social security.. They do everything that drives the economy...  Unknowingly, we've been thinking our economic miracle in the last centuries was because of us..  when it has all along been the immigrants who spent most !  Go to any Walmart, KMart and dont be surprised to see them spending... for the sake of our economy...  Another important expense for them is they travel back and forth to their home countries..  Not only does this drive the airline industry... they generate tourism !  and remember, tourism is a key economic power generator.. examples being Singapore, Malaysisa, China, etc..

By shouting against immigrants, we are digging a grave for ourselves !  The reality is when immigrants dont come in.. our economic wheel grinds to a halt ! We all need to understand the reality...

Ron
Sunday, June 15, 2003

I am a H1B worker. I understand the frustrations of those who are out of work.
I have been through it twice already, in my 3 years in the US. But I managed to find a job
after intense competition. Isn't that what capitalism is all about?
Truth to tell, the H1B worker is the lowest on the pecking order as far as hiring people
for tech jobs is concerned. There are laywer fees, INS fees, legal hassles for a firm, if
they decide to hire a H1B worker. In fact some ads say "No H1B's please". Inspite of this, some of us
manage to find jobs. I know many people who have gone back home to India.
I love this country, and I would love to get a green card.. But you never know what will happen
tomorrow. We pay taxes through our nose, pay social security taxes(even though we
do not get any benefit from the system), and benefit the American economy.
We would find it heartening if you accept us in the spirit of the freedom of your country
that we all enjoy.

leon
Thursday, July 10, 2003

      SHORT FALL OF POLITICAL SAVVY AMONG TECHIES?

I read many of the posts, all seemed to make a point, most well meaning, however, virtually ALL completely naive in terms of understanding the leverage utterly nationless corps have on US policy and it's Congress which seems to vary only in terms of lease rates vs outright ownership.

Perhaps a tech metaphor?  Like the concept of a nearly infinite heat sink?  Imagine that the "heat" is the  huge US market place for the vast majority of end products, and it's high? pay and high costs.

Then imagine this unit is sitting on an outsized block of ice which reps the nearly infinite supply of LOW cost labor, as posters have noted, living where costs are LOW. 

Nothing new so far, but enter WTO/expanded everywhere NAFTA so there are FEW of the fences once used to govern the pace of change.  "Most-favored nation" trading once meant countries of similar costs and development, but today we've China?  with over ten years of permanent "most favored nation" and in addition to slave wages "they?" "We" "someone?" has allowed the yuan to be pegged to the buck at an artificial rate that is Further benefit to China.

(If "benefit" is that of keeping them far too poor to buy anything here -- they are the largest chunk of our HUGE and growing trade deficit.  And re: trade deficit perhaps it's worth mentioning that during "the boom" a sort of "current balance" was maintained by our excess, overseas spending bucks being recycled into investing in our stock market and bonds; a sort of buying of party favors and financing it by selling assets with long future value.  But even that shell game is NOT something to last  -- according to Grspn -- as he pointed out as some point the investments themselves PAY OUT to those foreign holders and add to dollar outflow.  The WHOLE game now is short circuited as our flat market, low bond yield, AND debt and trade deficit caused, weakening dollar are far less attractive to those holding the pile of dollars.  ALL is further exacerbated by limp energy policy and importing more oil at increasingly higher prices and NOW the expensive importation of LNG is at hand.

The NY poster illustrates one aspect of this mess: As HE is to "compete" with NYC costs with all from pressure from HiB's (like it or not brought here to dampen wages)  low cost few benefit states such as Texas,  with little tax base and ranking 40th in school funding--reaping 45th in SAT scores for their "investment" and finally "if you don't like it...

......... there is no longer ANY disadvantage to our sending the job to Bangalore, where Gates just earmarked $400 million to "buy four heads for the price of one".  I'm thinking the $400MM goes a long way in "creating" jobs when it's a cubicle equipped with a Taiwan P/C and free Windows products. ........ and whatever's in the new Windows  products and updates will "compete" as if they were done by the legions of unemployed techs in San Jose or SEA. 

Sorry I've no easy solution and you'd have to decide wheter voting for slow death by Democrats is better than the far swifter one by Republicans who've brought the corpies right into the White House with then, saving I suppose, the cost of lobbyist pay and car fare. 

              Cheers!  and perhaps the move for younger folk is to take the first move advantage? of moving from expensive dinosaur-doomed NY and like to those areas favored by corpie masters right away.  Hey $10,000 probably goes pretty far in Bangalore! And it's where "the growth is" think of what an entrepreneur could do!  Jack

Jack
Thursday, September 11, 2003

Hmmm...didn't see much here about the "H1B" only hiring practices.  Any comments?

x x x
Saturday, October 04, 2003

Some very interesting comments here, but let's set the record straight.

Myth: H1B and L1 visa people cost more than local US IT people.
Fact: 100% (as in ALL) costs are tax deductable for the corporations importing the worker and more tax loopholes than I can count the ENCOURAGE outsourcing to other countries.  There is some costs incurred by the visa holder, but they are almost always reimbursed by the sponser corporation.

Myth: IT workers are in short supply in the US.
Fact: Total bullshit, I have lost track of IT professionals who have given up looking for a job in IT and (being too white to get retraining money) are now used car salesman, night managers at Wal Mart, and have joined the military.

Myth: Imported Visa workers work at the same rate as the US local IT works.
Fact: Again, total bullshit, most of them make 1/3 less than US workers.  A typical Unix system Admin makes 65k.  Visa imports make about 45k to 50k.  Imported programmers get pennies on the dollar.

Myth: Workers that come from other countries to work my job for less money are truly sacrificing.
Fact:  Any piece of shit Indian, Chinaman, Phillippino, or Mexico that will do my job for less money isn't the worth the air they are breathing.  I lost my job to some bastard import from Infosys (Indian outfit specializing in stealing US jobs).  They wanted me to train the guy to replace me, I offered to kick his ass but they changed their mind.  Fuck Indians, scrourge of the planet.  I hope the Pakis nuke you into non-existance.

Myth: Outsourcing will save American jobs.
Fact: What the hell are you smokin?!?!?!??!  It is specificly designed to put Americans out of work and to shrink the middle class of America and is just another step to reduce the US to 3rd world status (like India).

...you get the idea.  I never thought in my life I would be voting Democrat but I am this year.  Bush has done nothing but provide the means for corporations to fire Americans.

Outsourcing is TOTALLY UNAMERICAN and goes against everything America stands for.  If you do not believe me, go to Ohio and ask a former blue collar manufactoring worker and the jackass Governor of that state (Repulblican of course) that things are going great.

Free trade is a fraud and destroys jobs.  The de-manufacturing of America is nearly complete. Less than 20% of the products Americans buy are made here.

Something must be done...but it is too late I am afraid.

Richard McKenzie
Saturday, March 27, 2004

Listen Mckenzie, or whatever your name is, dont curse India or Indians because you lost your freaking job to a smart Infoscion. India had nothing to do with it.

You lost it because of the following more probable reasons, it is only a coincidence that you lost it to an Indian. I doubt you would have stayed any longer on your job :-), had would have been replaced anyhow by an American. Then yould you have caled him a bastard american, or a shit American or someone from 3rd world status. India, i you mind correcting your facts incidentally, is NOT 3rd world.

Ok, I will relieve you of your waiting for the probable reasons-

1. you were too busy vacationing, and took 3 days off in a week, something which i have seen many people do in "secure" american software environments.
2. you had an altercation with your boss, and it was only coincidental that the smart Infoscion was around.
3. You had aired some attitude or job-shift publicly, something which I presume from your airy and attitudinal traits, after reading your outburst against India and Indians, that got through to management and it decided it was time to bring home some fresh hard working people without attitude.

I hope you found another job and you are not still grieving, and rubbishing, may i say, the 3rd world.

You make me laugh man...

AMERICAN-INDIAN
Tuesday, July 06, 2004

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