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The world is complicated ...

When I posted my complaint,  I wanted to show that you are very biased to Microsoft products. Microsoft UI in many programs simply suck. Taking into account the life of the software they even suck more.
Joel is very biased toward things he likes.
If tomorrow you decide to write a program for fog creek using Java. You would write an article, Java 1.4 UI has improved so much to the point that it is a logical choice to write my program in Java. You are just marketing yourself and product.
It is nice to be objective and not to try to push what you know and your preferences into facts because you are simply wrong a lot of times.

michel
Monday, May 06, 2002

The most important reason why I use MS products is because of there UI.  If it sucks in terms of usability, I sure would've switched OS's in a heartbeat.

Roger
Monday, May 06, 2002

"Joel is very biased toward things he likes."

Who isn't?

b
Monday, May 06, 2002

Microsoft UI is inconsistent. But the stuff that they have done well (ie SQL Server Enterprise Manager) is really sweet. On the whole though, the UI is usually very intuitive, and that is probably the best way to make a usable product.

Giampiero
Monday, May 06, 2002

"It is nice to be objective and not to try to push what you know and your preferences into facts because you are simply wrong a lot of times."

I don't know why comments like this perplex me so much.  Afterall, I understand that there are many people in the world so there are going to be just as many opinions in the world. 

However, I'm always bothered to visit someone's _personal_ website and see comments like this that seem so angry because the author (on his personal website) is putting forth an opinion. 

No matter what Joel writes down here, it's an opinion.  You either agree with it or you don't.  Yes, of course he is biased.  Yes, of course many will disagree.  Some will also agree. 

Not once have I ever had the feeling that Joel got up and thought "Gee, today I'm going to piss of John Smith from Kansas.  That guy is a walking door stop."  On the contrary, my feeling is that he got up and thought, "Hm - I have an opinion about (fill in the blank) - I think I'll post it on my weblog."

Note the use of the term "MY WEBLOG."

Bewildered
Monday, May 06, 2002

Giampiero, you said, ". . . But the stuff that they have done well (ie SQL Server Enterprise Manager) is really sweet."

You have got to be kidding. The SQL EM is one of the worst GUIs that MS has ever produced. It has too many non-resizeable, non-keyboardable, modal, fixed-font windows. It is essentially unusable without a mouse. The menus are awful (like having to go to a parent tree item to refresh a child list view).

One of the things I've been most impressed with in MS GUIs is their consistency. Keystrokes I learned in the days of DOS and Windows 3.1 still work in Windows 2000. It takes an especially lazy programmer to produce an application that doesn't work with the keyboard.

Troy King
Monday, May 06, 2002

Bewildered :

This site is not a weblog it's a discussion site and joel uses it to promote his company. 

michel
Monday, May 06, 2002

There is an odd theme when seeing why inferior GUIs are successful.  It has little to do with "consistency."  More importantly, a company needs to know how to push the GUI through the market.

Amiga, NeWS, etc, all apparently had better UIs than their competitors.  But in each case, the companies pushing them defeated themselves.  Microsoft did not kill them, they shot themselves.

If Microsoft did not push so hard, no doubt Dell would right now be pummelling Compaq by using an incompatible OS.  Instead, now we can install Linux for free on cheap commodity hardware because of Microsoft. 

Does that mean Microsoft isn't full of liars and FUD?  No, it's still a nasty company.  The world is massively complicated, and binary answers are only for software religions and armchair visionaries.

Richard Jenkins
Monday, May 06, 2002

Wow, Michel, you really like to stir things up here. Of course people are biased towards things they like. Duh! Only a Microsoft basher or a simpleton would agree that Microsoft UIs suck. Wow, Joel uses his site to promote his company? The nerve of him! It looks to me like Joelonsoftware is a blog and The Joel On Software Forum is a discussion. What's your point?

You haven't shown us anything except your ignorance.

pb
Monday, May 06, 2002

No wonder Joel is Bewildered.

Any idea or thought he has is treated like a target.
If only people would disagree in the spirit of discussion, rather than in an ill thought out one-upmanship manner.

Then if they are right Joel might change his mind.
And if he does'nt then so what, its his right to think X or Y whatever he chooses. The main point is that things are discussed giving people the opportunity to make decisions based upon what they read.

I for one value this weblog, and even now think its worth shifting through the dung heap to find the pearls.

Tony
Tuesday, May 07, 2002

Troy king, you said "It has too many non-resizeable, non-keyboardable, modal, fixed-font windows. It is essentially unusable without a mouse. The menus are awful (like having to go to a parent tree item to refresh a child list view). "

Well, I never really noticed these problems to be honest. But all I know is that I can create a database in SQL in 3 seconds or less using the enterprise manager. You want to create a table, no problem, just right-click on the database and hit Create Table and you are on your way. Try finding the same usability in Oracle, MySQL, DB2, or Informix.

Giampiero
Tuesday, May 07, 2002

Giampiero, there's no doubt the SQL EM is highly functional. You can do most of what's possible with SQL Server through the EM GUI (but not everything). We were talking about different things I suppose -- you were talking about functionality and I was talking about usability. I certainly agree with you that it makes some things very easy.

The main reason I do everything via code in ISQL/w or Query Analyzer or whatever they're calling it these days is that I can keep a log (like in Treepad) of what commands I ran on which days, and why. Not that it has anything to do with the GUI discussion :)

Troy King
Tuesday, May 07, 2002

Michel wrote:

>>This site is not a weblog it's a discussion site and joel uses it to promote his company.<<

No, this is not a discussion site.  It's a weblog with a forum.  That's why Joel's posts are on the front page and the forum is a single link on the left-hand side of the front page, part of a number of other links in the same area.

What makes you think this is a discussion site?

Come to think about it, what exactly is a "discussion site"?  I believe this is the first time I've heard the term.

And yes, Joel does use this website to talk about his company.  He runs a company, so he talks about it on his journal.  That doesn't make it anything other than a weblog.

Brent P. Newhall
Tuesday, May 07, 2002

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